Fathers and Mothers in Church Teaching

[Inisfallen]

In another thread (about vaccination), I linked to a document from the Pontifical Academy for Life, on whether or not it is morally permissible to use vaccines derived, at least in part, from cell lines originally sourced from aborted babies.

That’s not what I’m here to discuss. The document (here) says that "doctors and fathers of families have a duty. . . " and “It is up to the faithful and citizens of upright conscience (***fathers ***of families, doctors, etc.) to. . …” Nowhere are *mothers *mentioned.

I can see how women, and particularly mothers, might feel slighted by this. I would never make an important decision about my daughter on my own. All decisions are made by her mother and me. I wouldn’t have it any other way.

Yet this document seems to say that only the father should have a role in this (and presumably other) major decision.

Any thoughts?

 

[Kelfa28]

I can say this…no way would my husband make a medical decision involving my children without my say.
I take care of all of our children’s medical needs.

One reason? I worked in the medical field for many years and am currently finishing my degree in the medical field and he doesn’t/isn’t.

My knowledge far exceeds his and he trusts me in this department. When it came to vaccinations my husband was a bit skeptical at first and voiced his, well-meaning, but clearly uninformed decision. We weren’t married yet when we had this conversation.

I said, our kids are getting vaccinated whether you approve of it or not…under my say-so…and this is why they are getting vaccinated…if you are uncomfortable with this or you disagree then we need to re-think this relationship. I will absolutely NOT tolerate my children being unvaccinated and I will not leave a decision as important as this solely to my husband.

Come to think of it…my husband never makes “decisions” regarding the family on his own. He refers to me and if I say no…we talk…and come to a conclusion together…ALWAYS.

 

[pensmama87]

I wonder if it is a language or translation issue? The original document was not written in English but Italian. It’s possible that “parents” was mistranslated simply as “fathers” or there is a cultural context to the word (such as “head of household” or “decision maker”) that is missing.

I would be very surprised if the language choice was intentional to exclude mothers from decision making.

 

[Inisfallen]

I wonder if it is a language or translation issue? The original document was not written in English but Italian. It’s possible that “parents” was mistranslated simply as “fathers” or there is a cultural context to the word (such as “head of household” or “decision maker”) that is missing.

I would be very surprised if the language choice was intentional to exclude mothers from decision making.

You could well be right. I can’t check that – I don’t speak Italian, and wouldn’t know where to find the original anyway.

You also might be right about the cultural context, although it’s arguable that the very concept of “head of household” (especially if it’s assumed to be the father) is a bit sexist.

 

[pensmama87]

You could well be right. I can’t check that – I don’t speak Italian, and wouldn’t know where to find the original anyway.

You also might be right about the cultural context, although it’s arguable that the very concept of “head of household” (especially if it’s assumed to be the father) is a bit sexist.

That’s true, but it could be a failing of the translator, NOT the original, who for whatever reason couldn’t come up with a way to render it in English.

And all languages may have idiomatic expressions or ways of expressing meaning that sound “off” to other people when they are translated, but that the original speakers don’t think much of at all. It used to boggle my mind when learning French that there were such a thing as masculine and feminine nouns. (Why do those silly French think all tables are girls?) But that had nothing to do with it at all, and I was projecting my own expectations of language onto the other.

I find it’s best for my own sanity to not try and assume nefarious intentions when I run across stuff like this. The letter itself, originally written in English, is addressed to a woman, using the term “parents” with the statement copied beneath. To me, that would mean that the exclusion of “mothers” in the terminology is at most accidental.

 

[LightBound]

It’s likely the translation, as the plural for parents in Italian is also the plural for fathers in Italian, when it comes to referring to actual parents, not a plural for the title used for priests.

 

[marymary1975]

I wonder if it is a language or translation issue? The original document was not written in English but Italian. It’s possible that “parents” was mistranslated simply as “fathers” or there is a cultural context to the word (such as “head of household” or “decision maker”) that is missing.

I would be very surprised if the language choice was intentional to exclude mothers from decision making.

You are correct pensmama. In Italian all words have gender. Neutral gender words like it, children, parents, people, etc. Do not exist either in Italian, Portuguese or Spanish. Everything is written either in masculine or feminine form. As a result the default grammatical rule is that when you are going to refer to a group that includes men and women, you use the masculine. For example if you have two sisters and a brother and you want to refer to your siblings, you would say “my brothers” if you were translating literally. If you are going to refer to your children you’d say “my sons” and if you are referring to your mother and father together, you’d say “my fathers” – yes fathers in plural. It sounds odd usually for English speakers and specially if they are translating literally, I think most likely the issue is that the word used is parents but because they are translating literally they wrote father.

 

[Sarcelle]

I wonder if it is a language or translation issue? The original document was not written in English but Italian. It’s possible that “parents” was mistranslated simply as “fathers” or there is a cultural context to the word (such as “head of household” or “decision maker”) that is missing.

I would be very surprised if the language choice was intentional to exclude mothers from decision making.

Great catch. I do not know Italian but I do know Spanish. Since Spanish is similar to Italian, I feel safe in doing an extrapolation. In Spanish, parents mean padres which could also mean fathers.

 

[QuasiCatholic]

You are correct pensmama. In Italian all words have gender. Neutral gender words like it, children, parents, people, etc. Do not exist either in Italian, Portuguese or Spanish. Everything is written either in masculine or feminine form. As a result the default grammatical rule is that when you are going to refer to a group that includes men and women, you use the masculine. For example if you have two sisters and a brother and you want to refer to your siblings, you would say “my brothers” if you were translating literally. If you are going to refer to your children you’d say “my sons” and if you are referring to your mother and father together, you’d say “my fathers” – yes fathers in plural. It sounds odd usually for English speakers and specially if they are translating literally, I think most likely the issue is that the word used is parents but because they are translating literally they wrote father.

You appear to be extrapolating (incorrectly) from Spanish to all other romance languages. Yes, mixed groups take masculine forms of adjectives, but there are still different words for father vs. parent in most languages.

For example, in French “fathers” is “les peres” and parents is “les parents.”
In Italian, fathers is “i padri” and parents is “genitori” In Latin, it’s “patres” vs. “parentes”

Translating “parents” as “fathers” is not a normal mistake to make in any of those languages.

I would also point out that this paragraph from an official Vatican document written in Italian should make it clear that the church knows the different between mother, father and parent. All three words are used separately:

Dopo aver riflettuto sulle figure della madre e del padre, in questa catechesi sulla famiglia vorrei parlare del figlio o, meglio, dei figli. Prendo spunto da una bella immagine di Isaia. Scrive il profeta: «I tuoi figli si sono radunati, vengono a te. I tuoi figli vengono da lontano, le tue figlie sono portate in braccio. Allora guarderai e sarai raggiante, palpiterà e si dilaterà il tuo cuore» (60,4-5a). E’ una splendida immagine, un’immagine della felicità che si realizza nel ricongiungimento tra i genitori e i figli, che camminano insieme verso un futuro di libertà e di pace, dopo un lungo tempo di privazioni e di separazione, quando il popolo ebraico si trovava lontano dalla patria.

 

[Morwenna]

It appears to be a translation issue. Your source has the translations as you mentioned:

"doctors and fathers of families have a duty. . . " and “It is up to the faithful and citizens of upright conscience (fathers of families, doctors, etc.) to. . …”

While ZENIT.org has it translated as follows:

“doctors and parents have a duty” and “It is up to the faithful and citizens of upright conscience – parents, doctors, etc. --”

ZENIT’s translation is here: zenit.org/en/articles/on-vaccines-made-from-cells-of-aborted-fetuses

.

 

[AnnArbor]

You appear to be extrapolating (incorrectly) from Spanish to all other romance languages. Yes, mixed groups take masculine forms of adjectives, but there are still different words for father vs. parent in most languages.

For example, in French “fathers” is “les peres” and parents is “les parents.”
In Italian, fathers is “i padri” and parents is “genitori” In Latin, it’s “patres” vs. “parentes”

Translating “parents” as “fathers” is not a normal mistake to make in any of those languages.

I would also point out that this paragraph from an official Vatican document written in Italian should make it clear that the church knows the different between mother, father and parent. All three words are used separately:

Dopo aver riflettuto sulle figure della madre e del padre, in questa catechesi sulla famiglia vorrei parlare del figlio o, meglio, dei figli. Prendo spunto da una bella immagine di Isaia. Scrive il profeta: «I tuoi figli si sono radunati, vengono a te. I tuoi figli vengono da lontano, le tue figlie sono portate in braccio. Allora guarderai e sarai raggiante, palpiterà e si dilaterà il tuo cuore» (60,4-5a). E’ una splendida immagine, un’immagine della felicità che si realizza nel ricongiungimento tra i genitori e i figli, che camminano insieme verso un futuro di libertà e di pace, dopo un lungo tempo di privazioni e di separazione, quando il popolo ebraico si trovava lontano dalla patria.

Although the extrapolation may have been incorrect, I think MaryMary was simply looking for the cause of the obvious translation error. Clearly, the Church does not teach that fathers have sole authority over decisions about their children.