Fatima Consecration

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But Fr Fox, if you notice, isn’t the only person Sr Lucia wrote to. Please make my day and tell me Sr Mary of Bethlehem is ALSO blinded by dislike of Fr Gruner and ALSO silly enough to attempt to falsify documents.
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And again, what about the OTHER receipient of a letter endorsing the 84 Consecration? Please give me the best laugh I’ve had all week and tell me that Sr Mary of Bethlehem is also somehow in on the anti-Fr Gruner conspiracy.
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Sure, I’d be happy to make you laugh.

fatimaperspectives.com/cr/perspective44.asp
 
I pray every day that IF Russia has not been properly consecrated that it happen soon. There is so much controversy about this and so many letters that are in dispute on both sides of this issue that I wouldn’t know where to begin to try and decifer. I can say this much. Since 1984 when JPll consecrated the world (which was supposed to be sufficient to include Russia) anyone that is not deaf dumb and blind can see that the world has really never been at peace and is only getting worse. They can also see that Russia has never really fully converted. Pretty obvious to me. However heartfelt JP’s consecration was, did not produce the results expected.

I also have been around the block long enough to know that there are some clergy not above lying through their teeth. (thank goodness this does apply to most!!) Have to be pretty nieve to believe every word that comes out of the mouths of all clergy. So I continue to pray that if this is really NOT done properly, that it soon is and leave the rest to Our Blessed Mother.😉
 
Teelynn said:
Since 1984 when JPll consecrated the world (which was supposed to be sufficient to include Russia) anyone that is not deaf dumb and blind can see that the world has really never been at peace and is only getting worse. They can also see that Russia has never really fully converted. Pretty obvious to me. However heartfelt JP’s consecration was, did not produce the results expected.
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I agree completely. I do, however, think that the 1984 consecration did bring about some good results, such as the removal (or at least diminishing) of the threat of global communism posed by the Soviet Union. Similarly, the 1942 consecration done by Pope Pius XII was said to have shortened WW2. But neither one of those brought about the world peace and conversion of Russia that were promised.
 
Aragorn1 said:
I agree completely. I do, however, think that the 1984 consecration did bring about some good results, such as the removal (or at least diminishing) of the threat of global communism posed by the Soviet Union. Similarly, the 1942 consecration done by Pope Pius XII was said to have shortened WW2. But neither one of those brought about the world peace and conversion of Russia that were promised.
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This is exactly my stance on the subject.:yup: I really think that because intentions were pure and the Blessed Mother loved these two popes, she conceded to bring things more under control. To me, it is just logical that something is not quite right as we have not seen all that she has promised. World peace??? Conversion of Russia??? Have we ever seen these two things take place???:nope:
 
LilyM said:
Not good enough.

Truly it’s up to God to sort out the rights between Fr Fox and Fr Gruner, Lord knows I can’t. But Fr Fox, if you notice, isn’t the only person Sr Lucia wrote to. Please make my day and tell me Sr Mary of Bethlehem is ALSO blinded by dislike of Fr Gruner and ALSO silly enough to attempt to falsify documents.

For one thing Sr Lucia was very open in saying the earlier attempts at Consecration were unsuccessful - because they were. Not like anyone was seriously scandalised by her so saying, she was the seer to whom the mission was entrusted after all.

In contrast she was silent, if you don’t believe the letters, about 1984. 20 years of silence is completely uncharacteristic, in view how much she DID write and comment during her adult life.

Given that the success of this important mission had been entrusted to her, it would have been unpardonably lax of her not to speak up and SAY that 1984 was unsuccessful if in fact it was.

She had 20 years or so after 1984 during which to say the same things about it that she said about the earlier efforts, if 1984 in fact wasn’t a proper consecration. And she would have done so. If you can produce a document - ANY document or statement - from her where SHE said 1984 was unsuccessful that’s a different ballgame.

Besides, what benefit is to be gained from hiding her unfavourable opinion about 1984? Do you really think JP2 and Benedict 16 think heaven can be fooled or mocked in such a way? Give them credit for more sense than that.
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LilyM,

Here is a quote from “Fatima in Twilight” (Mark Fellows, Marmion Publications) concerning the supposed 1984 consecration by JPII.
" In the letter, which was originally sent on December 8, 1983, John Paul wrote: ‘The words of the act of consecration and offering which I am sending you enclosed, is the same Act which I pronounced at Fatima on May 13, 1982, with some slight modifications.’ He invited the bishops to ‘renew this act at the same time with me, in the manner in which each of you judges most suitable.’
March 22 was the celebration of Lucy’s seventy-seventh birthday. She was asked about the upcoming consecration. Lucy, who had read the text of the consecration, replied, ‘That consecration cannot have a decisive character,’ because once again Russia was not mentioned."

Another quote, “In fact, on March 27, 1984, the Italian Catholic bishop’s newspaper Avvenire reported that the Holy Father, on March 25 at 4:00 in the afternoon, three hours after he consecrated the world, prayed at St. Peter’s, asking Our Lady to bless ‘those people for whom You Yourself are awaiting our act of consecration and entrusting’. Thus he admitted that the Consecration of Russia remains unfullfilled.”

The letter(s) of 1989 purportedly put out by Sister Lucy are type written and very uncharacteristic of Lucy’s way of speaking. Sister Lucy, according to her own sister, doesn’t know how to type. Furthermore, to my knowledge, everything Sister Lucy has ever put on paper has been in her own handwriting. A forgery is not out of the question.

You must ask yourself, are there any reasons why the Vatican might not what to perform the consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart in union with the Bishops of the world? Or would they rather dilute the consecration so as not to offend Russia or the Russian Orthodox?

To see how I have integrated Fatima and the Book of Revelation go to my website:
www.motheroftheendtimes.com/ourmission.html

Toby Bedford
 
Toby_Bedford said:
LilyM,

Here is a quote from “Fatima in Twilight” (Mark Fellows, Marmion Publications) concerning the supposed 1984 consecration by JPII.
" In the letter, which was originally sent on December 8, 1983, John Paul wrote: ‘The words of the act of consecration and offering which I am sending you enclosed, is the same Act which I pronounced at Fatima on May 13, 1982, with some slight modifications.’ He invited the bishops to ‘renew this act at the same time with me, in the manner in which each of you judges most suitable.’
March 22 was the celebration of Lucy’s seventy-seventh birthday. She was asked about the upcoming consecration. Lucy, who had read the text of the consecration, replied, ‘That consecration cannot have a decisive character,’ because once again Russia was not mentioned."

Another quote, “In fact, on March 27, 1984, the Italian Catholic bishop’s newspaper Avvenire reported that the Holy Father, on March 25 at 4:00 in the afternoon, three hours after he consecrated the world, prayed at St. Peter’s, asking Our Lady to bless ‘those people for whom You Yourself are awaiting our act of consecration and entrusting’. Thus he admitted that the Consecration of Russia remains unfullfilled.”

The letter(s) of 1989 purportedly put out by Sister Lucy are type written and very uncharacteristic of Lucy’s way of speaking. Sister Lucy, according to her own sister, doesn’t know how to type. Furthermore, to my knowledge, everything Sister Lucy has ever put on paper has been in her own handwriting. A forgery is not out of the question.

You must ask yourself, are there any reasons why the Vatican might not what to perform the consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart in union with the Bishops of the world? Or would they rather dilute the consecration so as not to offend Russia or the Russian Orthodox?

To see how I have integrated Fatima and the Book of Revelation go to my website:
www.motheroftheendtimes.com/ourmission.html

Toby Bedford
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Question: Who is the quote from in regards to John Paul ll praying for a blessing for the “people for whom Our Lady is entrusting the consecration”? Somehow it didn’t come through clearly to me. If this is truly a fact (?) then there is more even to the secret than has been made public. I am tending to agree with Mother Angelica who has stated that there is more to the story than they are telling us. (don’t have the exact quote but in essense that is what she said, she said this shortly before her stroke)
 
Teelynn,

The quote is from the Italian Bishops newspaper called Avvenire. The JPII prayed inside St. Peter’s with 10,000 in attendance. The newspaper is March 27, 1984, p. 11.

Its my impression that JPII somehow felt intimidated or threatened so that he would not perform the correct consecration. It’s also my opinion that the May 13, 1981 attempt on his life in St. Peter’s square was supposed to be a wakeup called to JPII. The Holy Mother saved him only to remind him of the need to finish what was asked at Fatima. However JPII either misinterpreted the shooting of himself as the “Bishop in white being killed”, vision of Sister Lucy, Jacinta, and Francisco in 1917, July 13, or his "advisors’ convinced him this was so. The problem is the vision by the seers of Fatima is not of a Bishop in white being wounded, but in their vision the Bishop in white is killed by soldiers, along with other members of the hierarchy and notable laymen, all in a city half in ruins, through which they have been making their way.

Once one looks below the surface, I believe Fatima is unfullfilled and its convoluted history suggests interference in completing the wishes of the Holy Mother and our Lord.

Sincerely,
Toby Bedford
 
Toby,

Then the vision suggests a whole different incident than JP’s near fatality. To me it suggests that whatever Pope actually does the correct consecration will in fact sacrifice his life for it. He will have to be a martyr for the cause. Just my very humble:blush: thinking right off the bat. (don’t know whether or not I am way off base on this) I read somewhere that Our Lady said to Lucy that the consecration would take place but it would come late. (maybe in other words a little late in the game?) Like Mother Angelica has said, “They have not told us the WHOLE story.” When I have a chance I will visit your website. In the meantime, one of my rosary intentions ALWAYS is that if the correct consecration has not taken place, please facilitate it according to the Divine Will.
Nothing further we can really do but pray fervently and pray without ceasing.
 
Here is the Quote from Mother Angelica on May 16th 2001.
**
“As for the Secret, well I happen to be one of those individuals
who thinks we didn’t get the whole thing. I told ya!
I mean, you have the right to your own opinion, don’t you, Father?
There, you know, that’s my opinion.
Because I think it’s scary…”**
 
Bob67 said:
Here is the Quote from Mother Angelica on May 16th 2001.

"As for the Secret, well I happen to be one of those individuals
**who thinks we didn’t get the whole thing. I told ya! **
I mean, you have the right to your own opinion, don’t you, Father?
There, you know, that’s my opinion.
Because I think it’s scary…"
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Thanks Bob,

I knew that she said something meaning we didn’t get the whole story, but didn’t have her exact quote. I was close though.
 
I just read an article on putin…and scary stuff is happening in Russia!:eek:
 
Shoshana,

You are right to look closely at Russia. It is nowhere near converted. Just the opposite. Russia just had war game exercises with the Chinese on Russian territory. Russia and China published a working agreement of mutual interest in 2002, including military aspects. Russia feels threatened by NATO going into Poland. Putin is a former KGB man who is rapidly becoming a dictator. Gorbachev lives and operates in San Francisco putting on forums etc. as a unreformed Leninist but with a nicer face. The US thinks because the old form of the Soviet Union collapsed that Russia is no longer a problem. This is incredible naivety.

We should believe the Holy Mother when she says Russia will be the source of much trouble and chastisements unless properly consecrated to Her Immaculate Heart. It must be done along with the Catholic bishops and will result in the conversion of Russia to the Catholic Church.

Pray for Benedict that he does what is necessary and finds the courage to do so.

Toby
 
.

However, I realized the other day that the 1984 consecration was not done “in union with all the bishops of the world”. Our Lady did not specify that they be Catholic bishops, nor did she indicate whether they had to be in union with Rome. The phrase “all the bishops of the world” could include Eastern Orthodox Patriarchs and it could even include the Archbishop of Canterbury.

Any thoughts on this?

’ Be one that the world may believe ’ - if all the problems of the world ( and each of us too ) is related to faith and the promise of His Peace with it , Fatima can also be seen as God’s merciful reminder of this truth …

As to whom the prophetic vision allude to , it may well have been about the suffering that was to take place for the Russian people and Church there - who are also devoted and beloved of the Bl.Mother !

The faithful continuing to pray for unity and all efforts being made by the hierarachs and others for the same - let us hope - can bring results ( as the consecration has already shown ); God alone knows how many times the world has already been spared from nuclear war … other catastrohes …and yes , even if we have tribulation ( another one of His promise! ) - for a planet of 6 billion plus people , we also have a good degree of peace !

Peace !
 
It is a well-known fact that Jesus had asked that France be consecrated to His most Sacred Heat (via St Margaret Mary Alacoque). His request was not granted and so many wars have existed there since…let alone the secularism that has invaded France!:crying:
 
I’m not sure that the problem with the consecration had to do with “all the Bishops of the world” at all. From what I take out of this is that “Russia” was not ever mentioned in the consecration. JP ll consecrated the “world” to the Immaculate Heart of Mary which would include of course Russia. It was too general. The BM wanted “Russia” to be consecrated to her. If you think about it, that would be a very bold move on the part of The Holy Father, to call all the Bishops of the world together to consecrate “Russia” or any other single country alone for that matter, but especially Russia to her Immaculate Heart.:eek: Extremely courageous if you ask me.
 
Aragorn1 said:
Sr. Lucia said no such thing. The Fr. Fox “letters” are fraudulent. I suggest you read this all the way through to the end (with an open mind). I repeat, NOWHERE has Sister Lucia stated that the 1984 consecration fulfilled Our Lady’s requests.
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i see the link you provided is from father gruners website. anyone here, i cannot recommend that you visit that site.

that is wrong. she stated that heaven has accepted it. regarding father gruner, why does anyone in their right mind accept what he says as fact when in fact his conspiracy theories regarding a “cover up” at the vatican regarding the 3rd secret has NO merit what so ever?

why would ANYONE want to pay any attention to what he says? why would anyone visit his site? here is some information about father gruner. he is suspended a divinis, and no one should support him financially. people should not buy into his conspiracy theories.

ewtn.com/expert/answers/fr_gruner_old.htm

see this:

TCRNews.com

More Fatima Today; Sister Lucy Rejects
Grunerite Conspiracy Theories Again

SISTER LUCY: SECRET OF FATIMA
CONTAINS NO MORE MYSTERIES
REJECTS GRUNERITES AGAIN

tcrnews2.com/genfatima.html

underlines are made by me for emphasis. take NOTE that she says in her OWN words that the consecration WAS done in 1984 and there are no conspiracies and that SHE said that heaven accepted it.

read this:

Sister Lucy was asked: “What do you say to the persistent affirmations of Fr. Gruner who is gathering signatures in order that the Pope may finally consecrate Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary, which has never been done?”. She replied: “The Carmelite Community has rejected the forms for gathering the signatures. I have already said that the consecration that Our Lady desired was accomplished in 1984 and was accepted in heaven.”

“Is it true,” the communique concludes, “that Sister Lucy is extremely worried by recent events and does not sleep but prays night and day?”. Sister Lucy replied: “It is not true. How could I pray during the day if I did not rest at night? How many things are attributed to me! How many things I am supposed to have done! Let them read my book, there are the advice and appeals that correspond to Our Lady’s wishes. Prayer and penitence, accompanied by an immense faith in God, will save the world.”

With reference to the third part of the secret of Fatima, she affirmed that she had attentively read and meditated upon the booklet published by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith and confirmed everything that was written there. To whoever imagines that some part of the secret has been hidden, she replied: “Everything has been published; no secret remains.” To those who speak and write of new revelations she said: "There is no truth in this. If I had received new revelations I would have told no-one, but I would have communicated them directly to the Holy Father.

tcrnews2.com/genfatima.html

No More Mysteries in Fatima Secret,
Sister Lucia Says

Confirms That Russia Has Been Consecrated to the Virgin Mary

VATICAN CITY, DEC. 20, 2001 (Zenit.org).- Sister Maria Lucia said that the secret of Fatima does not refer to the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks, that its contents have been completely revealed by the Holy See, and that Russia has been consecrated to the Virgin Mary, as Our Lady requested. The content of the meeting between the Vatican aide and the elderly visionary, held at her convent in Coimbra, Portugal, was published today by the Vatican Press Office.
 
TraditionalCath,

Setting aside the issues with Fr. Grunner, please make the case based on the conditions currently in Russia that it has converted to being Catholic, and is showing all of the signs of conversion.

Sincerely,
Toby Bedford
 
Toby_Bedford said:
TraditionalCath,

Setting aside the issues with Fr. Grunner, please make the case based on the conditions currently in Russia that it has converted to being Catholic, and is showing all of the signs of conversion.

Sincerely,
Toby Bedford
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the op started this thread about father gruner, so i don’t have to set it aside. i responded to a poster, and that is the way it is. i responded with links and facts. the fact is the consecration was done, and sister lucia has said that heaven has accepted it.

i will not support father gruner or his claims. many people iam sure have converted in russia and other parts of the world since the fall of the communism. not all of the people there are anti catholic. people are free in russia now to convert. they do not have to fear the KGB coming after them. i am quite positive that russians and others who lived in communist countries are free to convert if they want to.
 
i clicked on the links from the post here that i made, and i noticed that the site tcrnews2 is down. those links from about father gruner are over at CCF. i did not know those links were down. when i was at CCF there a while back, the links were working. the webmaster at tcr2 must have taken the site down. so if the mods here want to remove the post and the links with tcr2 news in it, then that is fine with me:)
 
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