Fatima, Conversion of Russia and Peace

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As a European, I am certainly no great fan of the U.S. as it is today (you are the only Western country that still has capital punishment and your execution rate is up there with Iran and China).

However, what the Putin regime has done is different not only in magnitude but in essence. There is a time when exercises in moral equivalence really have to stop and we have long went past that point. Russia is on a path of escalation.

Putinist Russia holds fake elections, arrests and tortures dissidents, unilaterally changes the borders of neighbouring European countries by military force, murders journalists, assasinates critics with polonium, snipers and nerve agents, has shot down civilian airliners, poisons foreigners on their own soil, spreads disinformation campaigns and alternative facts to disrupt politics in other nations…I could go on.

The U.S. under the doctrine of Manifest Destiny conquered most of your continent in the 19th century, the age of imperialism when every major power did that and worse. You used an atomic weapon when it was first created in 1945, during the same conflict that saw Hitler gas millions of Jews in death camps.

Russia is doing everything that it is doing in the 2010s.

I’m not here to attack a nation or score brownie points, rather I just cannot square Russia as we find it today with the vision of a consecrated polity and a consequent peace for the world. One would have to live under a rock to think that. It just hasn’t materialized.

The fall of the Soviet Union was a false dawn. What we have today is scarcely better and is certainly worse than the latter Gorbachev phase of the old USSR, when the country really did strive for cooperative relations with the West and many tensions were being soothed.

We are in the worst period right now since the early 1980s.
 
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Hi,
I just recall, praying at the end of mass. Dear God, we pray for the Conversion of Russia. At the time, churches were closed and sometimes used for offices, & other worldly services.
So the Prophecy was fulfilled. The church came back after Gorbachev signed agreements w Reagan. Putin even wears an Orthodox, shaped cross. He dunks under cold water w Easter(?)
Putin isn’t living his faith w the Scripture.
In Christ’s Love
Tweedlealice
 
Putin is clearly self interested but America has done some very bad things too-eg:George Bush and waterboarding.
 
Indeed, Guantanamo Bay.

No one is suggesting that the U.S. is a paragon of virtue.

But America has constitutional limits and the rule of law to restrain political actors. Russia has no limits and no rule of law. It is a mafia state.
 
Question: How do our Russian Orthodox brethren feel about the Roman Catholic push for the consecration of their people?
 
A lot of the same arguments can be made when comparing Christianity to Islam.

E.g., Christians persecuted people, burned heretics, conquered lands, forces conversions, etc. Isn’t it hypocritical to condemn Muslims for doing the same thing?

[Answer: No, it isn’t.]
 
Russia has been consecrated by a the former Pope.

What is with the constant concern over Putin? Gorbachev didn’t get this much static and he was president during the USSR. Thank goodness both Trump and Putin can handle constant criticism by someone since they have nuclear arsenals at their disposal. I hope a hater doesn’t cause a misunderstanding and the buttons to be pushed. He is a member of the Orthodox Church. The Orthodox Church in Ukraine is going through some changes, wanting to split from Russian church. It’s more complicated than that. The orthodox church used to be unable to function in Russia and now they can function. This is like criticizing the Vatican for not stopping the Nazi’s unaware that the Vatican was hiding Jews, some religious orders were, some faithful were. But yes the church didn’t have people official resist so they could function as hospitals and such. There is no free speech there. A little charity please. I think you are thinking like the Jewish people of Jesus’s time who expected the messiah to free them from Rome when instead He freed them from sin. What does conversion look like? The error they spread was communism and atheism. Communism is being replaced throughout the world. Religion is allowed Russia now. In fact it’s encouraged as they want an increased birth rate and church encourages reproduction and considers children as gifts. I don’t think that the country does something bad means anything. Heck the US is blessed by God IMHO yet they I’m sure we have our assassins and we allow the murder of millions of babies a year.
 
I beg to differ, it seems entirely relevant to me. The Fatima apparitions commanded that Russia and the whole world be consecrated to the sacred heart of Mary. Given the nature and meaning of the word consecrate, these visions were commanding the worship of something that is not God. I think Moses certainly would have seen it that way.
 
The Russian orthodox also have devotion to the blessed virgin. It’s not like consecrating a Baptist country to Mary.

The Russia orthodox don’t think the Pope is over them but equal to the orthodox churches. For all we know they might have their own apparitions relating to the Roman Catholic Church.
 
Moses the guy who added divorce into the Torah when Christ said Moses was inspired by men to put that in. What else did Moses do wrong?
 
Hodos said:
meaning of the word consecrate, these visions were commanding the worship of something that is not God.
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If the vision had said to worship Mary, the Church would not have approved the apparitions.
 
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That is debatable. Typically these break down into semantics games where the meaning of worship is stripped from the word. Anyway, one should justifiably be leery of these visions and test them as we have always done.
 
If you read through the books of the law, the law was given to Moses by God. Christ does not say that Moses was inspired by men, but that it was allowed because of the Israelite’s hardness of heart (quite a difference from your claim that Moses went off the reservation). The intention of the law of divorce was to allow the dissolution of the marriage if the covenant of marriage had been broken, specifically through adultery or other means of fornication, as Christ himself explains, and Paul later reinforces. Note also, that God himself allows for divorce in Hosea when he describes his divorce from Judah and Israel for their unfaithfulness. The reason I explain this is because it demonstrates two things: 1) you are incorrect in your interpretation of Moses inserting something into the law that the Holy Spirit did not intend or allow; 2) it nullifies your insistence that somehow the law in regard to testing prophets by their teaching is somehow no longer applicable. Quite frankly, your response demonstrated a complete disregard for sacred scripture that is beneath (I hope) Catholicism.
 
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I think you’re wrong about Putin. President Trump knows that Putin isn’t a warmonger. Look to the mass media who are beavering to start WW3. President Trump is under constant pressure to be part of the anti-Russia narrative. Eisenhower warned about the power of the military industrial complex. Globalists tell presidents what to do. Putin is vilified because he doesn’t listen to the globalist open borders brigade.
 
Vouthon said:
We all know that no Catholic in good conscience is obligated to believe in private revelations. The Church merely declares them to be “worthy of belief”, nothing more or less.

With that said, successive popes have placed a great emphasis upon Fatima and explicitly recognized its validity; so that weighs on my judgement.

In light of recent developments, I think it is impossible to hold to the notion that the prophecy in the Second Secret has been fulfilled. If anyone doubted before, recent events have made clear that Russia is a rogue regime which is interfering in democracies in Europe and North America, even going so far as murdering - or being the efficient cause of death of - British citizens in Salisbury and Amesbury (poisoning with novichok, the deadliest nerve agent known to science).

This follows a pattern of reckless behaviour starting with the invasion of Georgia in 2008 and continuing with the annexation of Crimea in 2014, spurring unrest in Eastern Ukraine through the use of hybrid warfare and spreading disinformation worldwide through social media, dark money and other channels.

As for the Russian Orthodox Church, it is practically an arm of the Putin regime and utters not a word of criticism in respect of the Kremlin’s policies.

…so in terms of Fatima, this leaves one in a sticky position. Either:

(1) the prophecy is false and has been proven so by recent events, or

(2) the interpretation given by the Vatican in 2000 is in error (i.e. the prediction of Russia spreading her ‘errors’ and causing wars, annihilation of nations etc. still holds and is happening before our eyes and the peace promised to the world upon its conversion remains to happen in the future)

Really, it boils down to a choice between these two options and neither one is particularly stellar. The consecration is said to have taken place in 1984, if my memory recalls, and that’s the official party line (which I see no reason to doubt, unlike with some fringe folk)…but the fruit of that consecration clearly hasn’t sprung up. Russia is actively sowing discord worldwide, undermining trust in governments and deterring peaceful relations with other governments.

So what do you think? Was the prophecy simply wrong or was its ‘semi-official’ interpretation (i.e. fall of Communism) wrong?
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As we’re asked to do, pray for the conversion of Russia. That becomes our act of obedience which is also important in the end.
 
A number of years back I saw on youtube a stadium of people in Moscow, packed, on Easter Sunday afternoon. Half the stadium cried Chrystos vos chres! then the other half replied Voyestenu vos chress! done 3 times. This is the cry we hear on Easter morning in the Eastern Catholic and Orthodox churches that Christ is Risen! Indeed He is risen! three times. A packed stadium at a game. That would never happen in Canada. It gave me chills. Who is to say that the Holy Spirit hasn’t impacted the hearts of many in Russia after the heavy yolk of communism for decades. I found it remarkable.

For myself, we honor God and look to offer up all our joys, sorrows and sufferings for the intentions that our Lady asked for at Fatima. She is the reason for my conversion and she has given me a vision on how I can impact the world in my every day coming and going of life. I don’t see that Fatima is somehow lacking. I see an incredible moment of God coming into the world in a powerful way. It is my answer to people who struggle in life and my answer to those who say “why hasn’t God shown himself like in the Old Testament.” He has, he is, and he ever shall be.
 
No. Actually that isn’t the Catholic position on that verse on divorce. Why the Bible wasn’t written in English! God help the Protestant, you can see the benefit of one billion people not interpreting scripture Who are not trilingual on their own.
 
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