Fatima -- help me understand this?

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7WatersDaughter

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Hi everyone – as you may know I am a lapsed Catholic who is considering coming back to the church. I have been getting more comfortable with the idea of it, but yesterday I was reading about Fatima and I came across a website that stated this:

*The 5th of the 15 promises made by Our Lady of Fatima concerning the Rosary is so blasphemous that it is unmistakable, clear, proof, that Catholics do indeed worship Mary (which is sinful idolatry). Here’s the 5th promise…

The soul which recommends itself to Me by the recitation of the Rosary, shall not perish. —SOURCE

Blasphemy!!! You cannot show me even one Scripture from the Word of God where we are told to trust in Mary, by reciting the Rosary to be saved. In fact, the word “Rosary” is NOT a Bible term. The Rosary is straight out of the pits of Hell. Jesus condemned vain repetition in Matthew 6:7. According to Our Lady of Fatima (whose teachings are officially sanctioned by the Vatican), a person can obtain eternal life through Mary by reciting the Rosary. In sharp contrast, Jesus Christ proclaimed in John 14:6… “I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.” How could Catholics be so arrogant, so blind, and so apostate as to believe that salvation is found in Mary? I tell you, Catholicism is of the Devil. *

Strong condemnation and language, I know. But if we see past that offensiveness, it does raise a point that I am uncomfortable with. The Bible clearly states that Jesus is the only way we can attain salvation. How then can the apparition of Mary say that we can be saved through her?

I’m not wanting to offend anyone just want information. Blessings!
 
I am surprised no one answered your query.
Our Lady is a human being and should not be adored. The rosary is not an act of adoration, but a prayer. And it is always prayed in honor of Jesus. In the rosary we recite the Creed first and foremost. Of the fifteen mysteries, only four are directed to Our Lady but all have undertones of Jesus. The rosary is not just a string of hail mary’s but mainly it is a meditation.

Finally the writer of italics part must have been a protestant and have no inkling of what he is talking about. The Rosary is a help to make us think of God and His Mother. We are saved through Jesus Christ through Mary’s intersession. If you are sick you can go straight to God or go to a doctor. Our Lady is a doctor. God cures. Protestants stick to sola scripta. So they gag God and would not let Him inspire us of anything that came after the last book of scripture.
 
I would say a quick answer is that if a private apparition offends you, the church said you don’t have to follow it. So there is no problem.

For others if they wish to follow this, then the church said that this particular apparition of Mary is worthy of our faith. So there is no problem.

One suggestion, you are looking at the wrong websites. Start with the good ones, and leave the bad ones until you have had more experience in theology. If a person drinks poison then should they be disappointed if they wake up dead. I don’t mean to be offensive, but it sounds to me you aren’t able to handle this kind of controversy, so swim in the safe waters and stay away from the sharks.

May God bless and keep you. May God’s face shine on you. May God be kind to you and give you peace.
 
sounds like an anti catholic/anti virgin mother site that you got your information from.

You want real information on the 15 promises…

ourladyswarriors.org/prayer/15promise.htm

But those were made to Saint Dominic…not at Fatima

The things at Fatima were slightly different - many dealt with warnings about if we did not repent, we would be punished with a 2nd worse world war (we were) and if I we did not stop Russia, she would spread her errors (and Russia DID spread her errors).

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000626_message-fatima_en.html
 
I am not a Bible scholar by any means but here is my 2 cents.

I have NEVER in all my years worshiped Mary. I do not know anyone personally that does worship Mary. This claim is always heard among the Catholic bashing crowd :rolleyes: I have found that people mock what they do not understand.

The rosary is a meditation of Jesus’ ministry and of his life. It is my understanding that the rosary developed in the Middle Ages out of the Liturgy of the Hours. Most people did not read and people wanted to take part in the public prayer of the Church so the rosary developed. I am sure other people can fill in the details but that is my understanding. It came out of people’s need of wanting to pray without ceasing (1 Thessalonians 5:17 ). I don’t see how that is a bad thing but people will find fault in anything the Catholic Church puts forth.

Jesus is the way the truth and the life…without a doubt. Mary ALWAYS points us to her son Jesus. Mary was such a humble creature I am not sure how people can say she is asking for the glory herself. She is not. She always helps us in our relationship with Jesus.

In the end, you might have to just take something like this on faith. Have faith that the Church that Jesus started is indeed the Catholic church and she will not lead people astray. Pray for clarity on this and I am sure you will receive it.

I will keep you in my prayers also.
 
7WatersDaughter said:
Hi everyone – as you may know I am a lapsed Catholic who is considering coming back to the church. I have been getting more comfortable with the idea of it, but yesterday I was reading about Fatima and I came across a website that stated this:

*The 5th of the 15 promises made by Our Lady of Fatima concerning the Rosary is so blasphemous that it is unmistakable, clear, proof, that Catholics do indeed worship Mary (which is sinful idolatry). Here’s the 5th promise…

The soul which recommends itself to Me by the recitation of the Rosary, shall not perish. —SOURCE

Blasphemy!!! You cannot show me even one Scripture from the Word of God where we are told to trust in Mary, by reciting the Rosary to be saved. In fact, the word “Rosary” is NOT a Bible term. The Rosary is straight out of the pits of Hell. Jesus condemned vain repetition in Matthew 6:7. According to Our Lady of Fatima (whose teachings are officially sanctioned by the Vatican), a person can obtain eternal life through Mary by reciting the Rosary. In sharp contrast, Jesus Christ proclaimed in John 14:6… “I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.” How could Catholics be so arrogant, so blind, and so apostate as to believe that salvation is found in Mary? I tell you, Catholicism is of the Devil. *

Strong condemnation and language, I know. But if we see past that offensiveness, it does raise a point that I am uncomfortable with. The Bible clearly states that Jesus is the only way we can attain salvation. How then can the apparition of Mary say that we can be saved through her?

I’m not wanting to offend anyone just want information. Blessings!
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No one adores Mary.
But you see in the Gospels that the first miracle of Jesus was made through Mary.
If your mother asked you to heal a sick person and you can do it, would you refuse?

Mary is our loving Mother. The Counvil Vat II declared Mary the intermidiate of all graces. There are things you do not understand in Fatima and in all.
 
Philippians 2:5-7

Jesus came to us through the Blessed Virgin Mary. Are we so proud that we cannot go to Him through her?
 
jshalom said:
No one adores Mary.
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Some clearly do with over-the-top Marian devotion. It does give Protestants grist for the mill. Nobody should adore Mary, we should all venerate her. But then we’re all human and prone to mistakes. Including the simultaneous translator at a Rome congress I attended who translated a French comment about “venerating” (nous vénérons la Vierge Marie) into “worshipping” (we “worship” the Virgin Mary). The poor person making the comment was vigorously denounced in person by anglophone delegates. Poor guy couldn’t figure out why until one literally hissed at him “we don’t adore the Virgin Mary, we venerate her”. He replied “but that’s what I said”. Turns out it was the translator that flubbed it. He had correctly said “venerate” in French.
 
OraLabora said:
Some clearly do with over-the-top Marian devotion. It does give Protestants grist for the mill. Nobody should adore Mary, we should all venerate her. But then we’re all human and prone to mistakes. Including the simultaneous translator at a Rome congress I attended who translated a French comment about “venerating” (nous vénérons la Vierge Marie) into “worshipping” (we “worship” the Virgin Mary). The poor person making the comment was vigorously denounced in person by anglophone delegates. Poor guy couldn’t figure out why until one literally hissed at him “we don’t adore the Virgin Mary, we venerate her”. He replied “but that’s what I said”. Turns out it was the translator that flubbed it. He had correctly said “venerate” in French.
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As I see it, the problem is in thinking like a catholic or thinking like a protestant. Adoration, veneration and honor are all in the definition of worship.

Take, for example, paragraph 971 of the CCC.

971 “All generations will call me blessed”: "The Church’s devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship."513 The Church rightly honors "the Blessed Virgin with special devotion. From the most ancient times the Blessed Virgin has been honored with the title of ‘Mother of God,’ to whose protection the faithful fly in all their dangers and needs… This very special devotion … differs essentially from the adoration which is given to the incarnate Word and equally to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and greatly fosters this adoration."514 The liturgical feasts dedicated to the Mother of God and Marian prayer, such as the rosary, an “epitome of the whole Gospel,” express this devotion to the Virgin Mary.515

971 « Beatam me dicent omnes generationes » (Lc 1,48). « Ecclesiae pietas erga beatam Mariam Virginem pertinet ad naturam ipsam christiani cultus ».540 Beata Virgo « speciali cultu ab Ecclesia merito honoratur. Et sane ab antiquissimis temporibus beata Virgo sub titulo “Deiparae” colitur, sub cuius praesidium fideles in cunctis periculis et necessitatibus suis deprecantes confugiunt. …] Qui cultus …] singularis omnino quamquam est, essentialiter differt a cultu adorationis, qui Verbo incarnato aeque ac Patri et Spiritui Sancto exhibetur, eidemque potissimum favet »;541 ipse in festivitatibus liturgicis Matri Dei dicatis exprimitur542 et in oratione mariana, sicut est sanctum Rosarium, « totius Evangelii breviarium ».543

Christian worship - christiani cultus

special devotion - speciali cultu

This very special devotion - Qui cultus

differs essentially from the adoration - essentialiter differt a cultu adorationis

To say that worship is only adoration is not supported by history or reality and one need only look in a dictionary to prove this. Words do not change what they mean. People change the way that they use words to support or propagate their agenda.
 
OraLabora said:
Some clearly do with over-the-top Marian devotion. It does give Protestants grist for the mill. Nobody should adore Mary, we should all venerate her. But then we’re all human and prone to mistakes. Including the simultaneous translator at a Rome congress I attended who translated a French comment about “venerating” (nous vénérons la Vierge Marie) into “worshipping” (we “worship” the Virgin Mary). The poor person making the comment was vigorously denounced in person by anglophone delegates. Poor guy couldn’t figure out why until one literally hissed at him “we don’t adore the Virgin Mary, we venerate her”. He replied “but that’s what I said”. Turns out it was the translator that flubbed it. He had correctly said “venerate” in French.
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Bad translators aside, I think no one adores Mary. If you ask any Catholic whether Mary is a goddess, no one will say yes.
Now, in cold countries, devotion is more interior and contained. In latin and hot countries, people, kneel, kiss, embrace in a fashion that seems to be worship but it is not.
A story: if you go the Cathedral of St. Peter in Rome, you will see an image of St. Peter ( image of St. Peter in the Vatican) whose right foot disappeared afgter millions of pilgrims touched and kissed his right foot (the left foot is ok). Seeing this, someone would say it was worship but no, it was like kissing your father.

The Protestant as well as the Iconoclasts, the Jews and the Muslims, do not accept images. But we Catholic do and I think we are right like the Iconoclastic wars proved it.
 
jshalom said:
Bad translators aside, I think no one adores Mary. If you ask any Catholic whether Mary is a goddess, no one will say yes.
Now, in cold countries, devotion is more interior and contained. In latin and hot countries, people, kneel, kiss, embrace in a fashion that seems to be worship but it is not.
A story: if you go the Cathedral of St. Peter in Rome, you will see an image of St. Peter ( image of St. Peter in the Vatican) whose right foot disappeared afgter millions of pilgrims touched and kissed his right foot (the left foot is ok). Seeing this, someone would say it was worship but no, it was like kissing your father.

The Protestant as well as the Iconoclasts, the Jews and the Muslims, do not accept images. But we Catholic do and I think we are right like the Iconoclastic wars proved it.
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Some people, wrongly, adore Mary. Some over-the-top Marian devotions and supposed private revelations have even earned latae sententae excommunications:

Army of Mary incurs excommunications

Army of Mary doctrinal notes

If there can be a way to fall into error, you can be sure that humans with the help of Satan have found it.

Heresy in the Church is nothing new. There have been many since its humble beginnings. Fortunately I think, most have been found out and dealt with appropriately by the Church.
 
OraLabora said:
Some people, wrongly, adore Mary. Some over-the-top Marian devotions and supposed private revelations have even earned latae sententae excommunications:

Army of Mary incurs excommunications

Army of Mary doctrinal notes

If there can be a way to fall into error, you can be sure that humans with the help of Satan have found it.

Heresy in the Church is nothing new. There have been many since its humble beginnings. Fortunately I think, most have been found out and dealt with appropriately by the Church.
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That is a Quebec issue it seems.

Fatima was visited by Pope Paul VI and John Paul II (several times) who brought the image of Our Lady of Fatima to the Vatican to Consecrate the World to Her like May told Lucia to do and so peace came to the World. I was in Fatima when the 3rd Revelation was revealed in the presence of our beloved John Paul II, whose motto was, to Mary: “Totus tuus”. Fatima is serious business and the biggest mystery of the XX century as revealed in the 3rd Secret.
 
jshalom said:
That is a Quebec issue it seems.

Fatima was visited by Pope Paul VI and John Paul II (several times) who brought the image of Our Lady of Fatima to the Vatican to Consecrate the World to Her like May told Lucia to do and so peace came to the World. I was in Fatima when the 3rd Revelation was revealed in the presence of our beloved John Paul II, whose motto was, to Mary: “Totus tuus”. Fatima is serious business and the biggest mystery of the XX century as revealed in the 3rd Secret.
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Yes but… my point was that someone said “nobody adores Mary” to which I replied that I felt some did.

The statement “nobody adores Mary” should be changed to “no orthodox Catholic adores Mary”.

I’m not disputing either pro- or con- the Fatima mysteries. As far as I’m concerned, if the Church approves a private revelation, then there’s nothing wrong with having a devotion to it, within proper bounds.

But I don’t believe that Mary has never been adored.
 
7WatersDaughter said:
How then can the apparition of Mary say that we can be saved through her?
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Luke 1:44 For behold as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in my ears, the infant in my womb leaped for joy.

Give consideration to this verse. Why did the infant not leap at the presence of Christ, but leaped at the sound of the Blessed Virgin’s voice?
 
Are you perhaps confusing “love for” with “adoration of” Mary ?

We certainly love her in a way we can only hope to be able to love others. Our Lord himself would expect us to love her in this immense way.

Mary, you will find, helps you to deny yourself and pick up your cross and follow Him. Mary is not self-serving. She wants us to emulate her virtues so that we can love God, and her Son and the Holy Spirit as is required of us.
 
OraLabora said:
Yes but… my point was that someone said “nobody adores Mary” to which I replied that I felt some did.

The statement “nobody adores Mary” should be changed to “no orthodox Catholic adores Mary”.

I’m not disputing either pro- or con- the Fatima mysteries. As far as I’m concerned, if the Church approves a private revelation, then there’s nothing wrong with having a devotion to it, within proper bounds.

But I don’t believe that Mary has never been adored.
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Never. Never. It is hard to define “never”. Is 0,000000001% never? If one crazy person says that Mary created the Universe, Mary created man, Mary was God, then I could not say never? … I would say she is nuts. But I am talking in general terms, not with milimetric precision.

I insist on my position because the Protestant have a problem with Mary, thinking that we, Catholics, adore Mary and because of the Iconoclasts and the Muslims. That is why I prefer to be on the side of those who defend that Mary is not adored in the Catholic Church (home to 1 billion persons !!!)
 
Dear 7WatersDaughter,

Do you remember the old adage, “Consider the source.”?

Please check your sources of information. There is tons of information online, however, this isn’t a guarantee the sources are reliable.

I use the Web Site Review from Catholic Culture, in addition, to my own research.

Web Site Review

God bless you.
 
Should we venerate (honor) the Virgin Mary? :confused: Let’s look at the Bible:

1. Mary is addressed by an Angel as ‘full of grace’ (or highly favored’) Luke 1:28

2. Mary said** ‘yes’ to God** through his Angel (Luke 1:38)

3. Mary is** ‘overshadowed’ by the Holy Spirit (Luke 1:35)**

4. Mary is called** ‘Blessed among woman’** by Elizabeth (Luke 1:42)

5. Mary gave birth to our Lord and Savior (Luke 2:7)

6. Mary (and Joseph) raised Jesus, and Jesus was obedient to them (Luke 2:51)

7. Mary is one of Jesus’ first disciples, present at the wedding in Cana (John 2:1)

8. Mary **interceded (on behalf of the wedding party) to Jesus for more wine (John 2:3)
**
9. Mary is present ‘at the foot of the cross’ when many disciples had fled (John 19:25)

10. Mary is given as ‘mother’ to ‘the disciple whom Jesus loved’ (and the Church) by Jesus (as he is dying on the cross) (John 19:26-27)

11. Mary remains a disciple after the Crucifixion, is present with the other disciples **at Pentecost, she receives the Holy Spirit (a second time!) (Acts 1:14; 2:1-4) **

So the question is: Should we venerate (honor) Mary?

"For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed" **(Luke 1:48) ** - Absolutely YES👍
 
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