Fatima NOT DOGMA

[justme]

Why does it seem that so many (so-called) traditionalist Catholics want to raise Fatima to such a level that every Catholic must believe in it?

Fatima is a private revelation and as such is not part of the deposit of faith and is not required to be believed in by any Faithful Catholic, not even the Pope must believe in it to be a Catholic.

Why must someone force their view of spirituality upon everyone else?

 

[archangel04]

Sounds to me like you are just baiting people to start and argument. I could be wrong and if I am then I am sorry for that.

 

[pnewton]

Fatima is a private revelation and as such is not part of the deposit of faith and is not required to be believed in by any Faithful Catholic, not even the Pope must believe in it to be a Catholic.

Why must someone force their view of spirituality upon everyone else?

I do not know why you are posting this here in this subforum when it is more suited to spirituality, unless you just want to stir the pot. While it is not public revelation, it is approved private revelation. I think it is important that we understand that just because one does not rise to the level of formal heresy by disregarding what the Church teaches does not mean it can be tossed aside lightly. Two of the children have been declared Blessed.

As far as the spirituality of Fatima, of course one is free to pursue whatever spirituality edifies one the most and is of the greatest benefit.

 

[Belloc_Fan]

As far as the spirituality of Fatima, of course one is free to pursue whatever spirituality edifies one the most and is of the greatest benefit.

What? I’m not sure what you’re meaning with this sentence, and it’s open to some potentially dangerous interpretations. Obviously, one’s not free to pursue whatever spirituality they find most edifying or beneficial – or else there would be no purpose in approving private revelation or condemning fake revelations, etc.

I suspect you just misspoke, but I want to make sure.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

I do not know why you are posting this here in this subforum when it is more suited to spirituality, unless you just want to stir the pot. While it is not public revelation, it is approved private revelation. I think it is important that we understand that just because one does not rise to the level of formal heresy by disregarding what the Church teaches does not mean it can be tossed aside lightly.

Yet the Church tells us that private revelation adds nothing to the deposit of faith so I do not understand your comment " just because one does not rise to the level of formal heresy by disregarding what the Church teaches does not mean it can be tossed aside lightly."

If one beleives public revelation and feels that they do not need anything else then private revelations are not necessary for them. That is not tossing them aside lightly, that is they play no role in their spirituality.

Two of the children have been declared Blessed.

An the private revelation plays no role in thier being declared Blessed.

 

[Seamus_L]

Who are the (so called) traditionalist Catholics ?

 

[Bluegoat]

I do not know why you are posting this here in this subforum when it is more suited to spirituality, unless you just want to stir the pot. While it is not public revelation, it is approved private revelation. I think it is important that we understand that just because one does not rise to the level of formal heresy by disregarding what the Church teaches does not mean it can be tossed aside lightly. Two of the children have been declared Blessed.

As far as the spirituality of Fatima, of course one is free to pursue whatever spirituality edifies one the most and is of the greatest benefit.

I think there is a need to be very careful with this. On a number of occasions I have heard Catholics make theological arguments using private revelations like Fatima as a source of authority “Mary said it and so it must be true”. And when it is pointed out that such Revelations are not an acceptable authority, even for Catholics, they generally make the implication that those who don’t accept the revelation must somehow be deficient in piety or spirituality, or looking for reasons to discredit the teaching.

Essentially people use these revelations as additional information, beyond what has been revealed in Scripture and Tradition, and for me that is a real problem. It is something that has given me real pause when I have considered Catholicism.

 

[SalesianSDB]

I have the problem sometimes with one of St. Faustina’s revelations.

That at the hour of death Jesus calls all souls three times and if we answer Him, “Yes, Lord, I am here” we will be welcomed into heaven.

I find it comforting.

 

[beehumble]

Yet the Church tells us that private revelation adds nothing to the deposit of faith so I do not understand your comment " just because one does not rise to the level of formal heresy by disregarding what the Church teaches does not mean it can be tossed aside lightly."

If one beleives public revelation and feels that they do not need anything else then private revelations are not necessary for them. That is not tossing them aside lightly, that is they play no role in their spirituality.

An the private revelation plays no role in thier being declared Blessed.

Sort of like slavery and the Civil War were not related. Yeah right. If they had not had the private revelation, undoubtedly nobody would know their names or their lives and sacrifices, and they would not be declared Blessed. They were not declared blessed because of the private revelation, but it played a role in bringing them to the attention of the world, and the Church, for scrutiny. Just keeping it real here.

Private revelation does not add to the Deposit of the Faith. It is usually given to bring people who have strayed back to that faith. Jesus did miracles for a reason - sometimes decent people need to ‘see’. Some private revelation is like that.

Consider that Fatima’s Miracle of the Sun, witnessed by some 70,000 people, is without question the greatest miracle witnessed by the masses since the time of Jesus and the Apostles. The vast number of witnesses rules out fraud. So it happened.

The question remains, “Why?” This miracle alone makes Fatima unique. The fact that so many Catholic and non-Catholic folks know about Fatima and its secret makes it unique. The fact that the pope was publicly shot on the feast of Fatima, and it was prophesied at Fatima, makes it unique. The fact that the pope publicly consecrated Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary as specifically requested at Fatima, and then Russian atheistic communism collapsed with virtually no shot being fired, as promised at Fatima, makes it unique.

In short, Fatima is unique. Of course it is not dogma, or doctrine, or part of the Deposit of the Faith.

The miracle was great. But a little known fact is that the miracle was going to be bigger (perhaps the Miracle of the Sun would have been seen by all of Europe, maybe even halting the war?) but God pulled back, (From what I remember in reading this, it was because of the way the 3 seers were being treated but not 100 percent sure on this point.)

Fatima can therefore serve as a great inspiration and reminder of the power of God, and the power of prayer, and of how much we can do when we cooperate with Him and we do as He asks.

Nobody has to believe it, but everybody should.

God bless you.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Nobody has to believe it, but everybody should.

Okay this may be just the grammar-nazi growing inside this graduating English Major but aren’t the terms “has to” and “should” synonymous?

I find this sentence rather self-contradictory. :ehh:

 

[PhilipCal]

The Church has declared that Fatima is “worthy of belief”. Fatima is what the Church classifies as a private revelation. It is not a matter of Dogma. I personally believe in the events of Fatima. I also believe a person can be a good Catholic and not subscribe or believe in the events of Fatima. The Church is essentially telling Catholics that they have a choice in this matter.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Sounds to me like you are just baiting people to start and argument. I could be wrong and if I am then I am sorry for that.

I hate to burst your bubble but even apologist Jimmy Akin would be on the OP’s side on this one.

Catholic Answers - Marian Apparitions

 

[laszlo]

The problem with Fatima is that the traditionalist usually do not give attention neither to Lourdes and St Bernadette Soubirous, nor St Faustina Kowalska; both with similar and very important messages.

As a matter of fact neither of the previous ones can be used against the unity of the Church, exactly as for St Faustina one have to deny the same principles used to promote the Fatima message

 

[Hesychios]

The Church has declared that Fatima is “worthy of belief”. Fatima is what the Church classifies as a private revelation. It is not a matter of Dogma. I personally believe in the events of Fatima. I also believe a person can be a good Catholic and not subscribe or believe in the events of Fatima. The Church is essentially telling Catholics that they have a choice in this matter.

That is correct, but then why does the church name parishes after events like this? … and why is it on the calendar?

It seems to me like the later Catholic magisterium has been skirting it’s own rules, and sending mixed signals to the faithful. I am not surprised that people push these things on newcomers and the uninformed.

 

[Seamus_L]

“The problem with Fatima is that the traditionalist usually do not give attention neither to Lourdes and St Bernadette Soubirous, nor St Faustina Kowalska; both with similar and very important messages.” WHAT !!! I think this qualifies for most outrageous statement of the day.
Regarding people who do not believe in Our Lady Of Fatima, I realise they are not required to, but I can't help but be suspicious of there reasons for not believing. I have found the reasons to be that the message is too harsh, it's un-ecumenical, it's too right wing, they don't believe in hell, etc.

 

[Brooklyn]

That is correct, but then why does the church name parishes after events like this? … and why is it on the calendar?

It seems to me like the later Catholic magisterium has been skirting it’s own rules, and sending mixed signals to the faithful. I am not surprised that people push these things on newcomers and the uninformed.

With your kind of thinking, we could never name churches after any people or events who came after Christ. We would never celebrate any feast days of the saints, we would have no writings of the saints. St. Francis would be anathema, as would St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Augustine, St. John of the Cross, and on and on.

The Catholic Church is based on scripture and tradition. It is true that you do not have to believe in such things as Fatima to be a Catholic in good standing, but the truth is that our Lord has not just left us for 2000 years, but has many times over the years sent his Blessed Mother to us, especially in times of trouble and crisis. You don’t have to believe that, but you are cheating yourself out of very rich spirituality when you reject approved private revelation such as Fatima. Maybe you’re very strong spiritually, but I need as much help as I can get.

 

[beehumble]

Okay this may be just the grammar-nazi growing inside this graduating English Major but aren’t the terms “has to” and “should” synonymous?

I find this sentence rather self-contradictory. :ehh:

The sentence is not self-contradictory:

Nobody has to believe it, but everybody should (for their own sakes).

And here is more for those who study too hard, or twist more into something than was said to contort it into what they wish was said so they can argue and rebut:

It says this: We are free to take Fatima or leave it. But if one looks at it objectively, openly and honestly, even from a historical viewpoint, the message of Fatima is quite clear. We need to pray and return to God. Our salvation rests in God alone and not in anything of man. The West stood toe to toe with the atheistic forces of Communism for 70 years, spending vast blood and treasure but could never defeat it - in fact it relentlessly spread. Until the consecration requested at Fatima was enacted on 25 March 1984, that is. Then it collapsed without hardly a shot being fired. All those who lived through those days know it is a great miracle plain and simple; those who did not live through it do not and cannot understand.

Because Fatima is virtually impossible to refute even from a historical viewpoint, it would be wise to listen to what God spoke to us through Fatima. When God ‘talks’ we should listen. It is for our good, for our sake, that He bothers to speak to us. So yes, everybody should take Fatima to heart and try to live it.

God considered what He wanted to say at Fatima so important that He underlined it with a great miracle for all to see, and other ‘miracles’ such as the collapse of Russian communism as well.

Living Fatima will not harm a person; it will but help.

Fatima is a great sign of our times…obviously it means we are in such a “mess” that God had to act to pull us back to Him in such a dramatic way.

If our apostasy has caused our humble God to have to show His power to us once again to pull us back, we should reflect on what that says about the state of the world and of our souls that would cause Him Who knows all things to have to do this for us. God is efficient - He does not speak idle words - if He did this, it is because it was necessary.

Nobody has to believe it, but everybody should (for their own sakes).

 

[Brooklyn]

Regarding people who do not believe in Our Lady Of Fatima, I realise they are not required to, but I can’t help but be suspicious of there reasons for not believing. I have found the reasons to be that the message is too harsh, it’s un-ecumenical, it’s too right wing, they don’t believe in hell, etc.

I think you hit it here. One of the revelations of Fatima was the vision of hell shown to the children. I know a priest who believes that everyone is going to heaven, and no one will be going to hell. He once made a statement that the first thing Jesus did when he got to heaven was to “hug Judas”, expanding on his belief that everyone will be forgiven and taken to heaven. Now, I’m not saying that Judas is definitely in hell, none of us can know that, but let’s face it, there will never be a “Saint Judas.”

Never mind that this belief completely takes away our free will. Yet this priest has convinced many in his parish that this is doctrine. I went to a “spirituality” class in this parish where I mentioned Fatima and the vision of hell, and I was scoffed at.

 

[Brooklyn]

Because Fatima is virtually impossible to refute even from a historical viewpoint, it would be wise to listen to what God spoke to us through Fatima. When God ‘talks’ we should listen. It is for our good, for our sake, that He bothers to speak to us. So yes, everybody should take Fatima to heart and try to live it.

God considered what He wanted to say at Fatima so important that He underlined it with a great miracle for all to see, and other ‘miracles’ such as the collapse of Russian communism as well.

Living Fatima will not harm a person; it will but help.

Nobody has to believe it, but everybody should (for their own sakes).

One historical fact that cannot be refuted at Fatima was the miracle of the sun, which was seen by estimates of 30,000 to 100,000 people. For those who want to refute Fatima, how do you refute that? Mass delusion? That is some kind of delusion.

And it is interesting that such a large part of the message of Fatima was Russia, which was that very year undergoing the communist revolution, one of the greatest scourges of the 20th Century, responsible for the murders of possibly hundreds of millions of people, and causing great spiritual blindness. Quite a coincidence, don’t you think?

 

[Corki]

"The problem with Fatima is that the traditionalist usually do not give attention neither to Lourdes and St Bernadette Soubirous, nor St Faustina Kowalska; both with similar and very important messages. As a matter of fact neither of the previous ones can be used against the unity of the Church, exactly as for St Faustina one have to deny the same principles used to promote the Fatima message " WHAT !!! I think this qualifies for most outrageous statement of the day.

                          Regarding people who do not believe in Our Lady Of Fatima, I realise they are not required to, but I can't help but be suspicious of there reasons for not believing. I have found the reasons to be that the message is too harsh, it's un-ecumenical, it's too right wing, they don't believe in hell, etc.

What I believe lazlo was referring to was the unfortunate occurances where some people who are deeply attracted to the messages of the Fatima visions use them to criticize the Pope and other Church leaders. When private revelation is used to promote disunity, it is ultimately bad for the Church.