Fatima NOT DOGMA

[JReducation]

(cont’d)
**Fatima, of course, is not dogma, but people would be wise to heed the warnings. **

Why did God bother with the whole Fatima thing? Is there an answer for this? There has to be a reason. Did they explain it in the Mystical Studies you undertook, and if so, could you please share some of it?

First of all, in answer to your previous question, “prove that the Church disagrees” the fact that you say one thing and the Church does another is the proof, my friend.

Second, Christ does not ask the Church to do what is contrary to her structure. The fact that Sr. Lucia was a young girl when she heard the message and obviously did not know the theology of the Sacrament of Holy Orders, raises the important question, did the young Lucia understand that bishops and pope need not be in contact to be united in sacrament and that there is not further or deeper union. A vote of confidence between them is not the same as union. Union is defined by the sacrament, not by concensus. Do you see this part?

Third, all the we have is Sr. Lucia’s word on this matter. The pontiff must be very careful here. Sister can misunderstand what is being said to her. You seem to take her at her word, assuming that she understood what she was hearing and saying. A good example to remember is St. Bernadette. She had no idea what the Immaculate Conception was or that it had been declared a dogma just a few years before her apparition. She simply repeated words that were meaningless to her, but that she hoped meant something to the bishop. The same happened with Juan Diego. He did not have a clue what he was saying. All he knew was what he saw and he could describe that. As far as the message, he parroted what he heard as best he could. This is often the case with very humble and young visionaries. Therefore, the Church does not jump and take them literally. She subjects what they have to say to her theologians and finally to the pontiff.

Fourth, no we did not study why the miracle of Fatima or any other miracle. Miracles are not studied in Catholic theology. They’re not an area of study in theology. There are two areas of philosophy that deal with uncommon pehonomenon: Phenomenology and Metaphyscics. Neither are branches of theology. They are studied for the purpose of learning the tools to recognize the supernatural. Mystical theology goes much deeper than miracles. It concerns itself with the operation of grace in the soul.

In this case, the Mystical Theologian is much more interested in the life of prayer of the children, the anatomy of their souls, their life of contemplation, the operations of the Holy Spirit in their lives, the workings of grace, the development of perfect charity, their progress through the stages of prayer, the presence of God in the soul itself, not in the miracle, the correlation between their lives of private prayer, sacraments, works of charity, and common life, and finally, the personality of the indvidual. You must always look for psychological stability in the person. The mind can do many things, you want to make sure that this is the work of God. When you have gathered all of this data, you must then compare it to the experience of the msytics of old, the teachings of the Scriptures, the Dessert Fathers, and the doctrines of the Church. You also weigh in the law givers: Augustine, Albert, Francis, Benedict and Basil. All of this has to tie in. If it all the pieces of the puzzle fit with the passion of Christ, then you have a mystical experience. But then you must move on to the next step, that is the teachings of the mystic.

Mystics teach faith, not beliefs. They go deeper. Some great examples are men and women such as: Teresa of Avila and John of the Cross; Francis of Assisi and Clare of Assisi; John Paul II, Mother Teresa of Calcutta, Elizabeth Ann Seton, Brother Lawrence, Francis of Osuna, Julian of Norwich, Catherine of Genoa, Meister Eckert . . . these are mystics. Examine their writings and you’ll see that it’s a very different content and focus that has nothing to do with miracles and that minimize the importance of the miracles in their own lives, those that had miracles. Some never mention miracles such as: John Paul II, Elizabeth Ann, Mother Teresa, St. Francis of Assisi. They don’t mention miracles in their writings. We know about some, because other people mention them, not they. They speak about the operation of grace. Does that give you an idea of what Catholic Mystical Theology does and what it studies?

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[pnewton]

Mystics teach faith, not beliefs. They go deeper. Some great examples are men and women such as: Teresa of Avila and John of the Cross; Francis of Assisi and Clare of Assisi; John Paul II, Mother Teresa of Calcutta, Elizabeth Ann Seton, Brother Lawrence, Francis of Osuna, Julian of Norwich, Catherine of Genoa, Meister Eckert . . . these are mystics.

When I read this, I see the purpose of the distinction of private revelation. It is not the propagation of theological tenets, but rather the increase of faith that remains the purpose behind all private devotions. Despite what was claimed, the Catholic Church has not “Top Ten List” of private devotions. The only list that would matter would be the one that each of us hold within ourselves of what works to increase out faith. Our Lady of Fatima will probably always hold a place of high esteem in the Church because devotion to her is a good source of inspiration to so many, not because it is a higher ranking, whatever that means.

In a way, I think that this is a good topic for this forum. After all, here we find many that have an especially strong devotion for the more traditional forms of Catholicism. I have been discouraged in the past when some practices have come under attack by those who do not hold the same devotion. In fact, the Catholic Church is diverse for the very reason of its universality. To appeal to all, a broad range of devotional practices are needed, if the faith of each individual is to be built up.

In summary, I think it is laudable for a man to spread a devotional practice which has helped him in his faith. However, there must also be the understanding that not all, or maybe even many, will find the same devotion so uplifting. We must heed the exhortation of St. Paul to each look after the good of the other rather than our own good in the spirit of humility that Jesus took when he forsook heaven to be born in a manger. Whether the devotion is Fatima, chant, or any Saint, let us rejoice in the mercy of God that has given us such a rich diversity of methods for us all to build the same faith.

 

[JReducation]

When I read this, I see the purpose of the distinction of private revelation. It is not the propagation of theological tenets, but rather the increase of faith that remains the purpose behind all private devotions. Despite what was claimed, the Catholic Church has not “Top Ten List” of private devotions. The only list that would matter would be the one that each of us hold within ourselves of what works to increase out faith. Our Lady of Fatima will probably always hold a place of high esteem in the Church because devotion to her is a good source of inspiration to so many, not because it is a higher ranking, whatever that means.

In a way, I think that this is a good topic for this forum. After all, here we find many that have an especially strong devotion for the more traditional forms of Catholicism. I have been discouraged in the past when some practices have come under attack by those who do not hold the same devotion. In fact, the Catholic Church is diverse for the very reason of its universality. To appeal to all, a broad range of devotional practices are needed, if the faith of each individual is to be built up.

In summary, I think it is laudable for a man to spread a devotional practice which has helped him in his faith. However, there must also be the understanding that not all, or maybe even many, will find the same devotion so uplifting. We must heed the exhortation of St. Paul to each look after the good of the other rather than our own good in the spirit of humility that Jesus took when he forsook heaven to be born in a manger. Whether the devotion is Fatima, chant, or any Saint, let us rejoice in the mercy of God that has given us such a rich diversity of methods for us all to build the same faith.

You are correct. From the creation of Adam to this day, God in his infinite mercy has sought to strengthen the faith of his people. He will give to his people what they can use, when they can use it and in those circumstances where they can use it. That’s why something like Fatima is not a common devotion through the entire Catholic Church. While Catholic believe that it happened, not all of the Catholic Churches place it center stage, because it does not serve the needs of all Catholics.

I have never heard of a Syrian, Melkite, Chaldean, Greek or other Catholic Church make a big fuss about Fatima. Why not? Because it is not necessary to their life of faith. They have their own faith experiences that are helpful to them.

There is also a time issue here. For the Romans, Fatima is very recent. But it certainly is not the only miraculous intervention from heaven. We have others too: the visions of Sr. Faustina, the life and work of Mother Teresa, the mission given to St. Maximilian Kolbe, the cures at Lourdes, and many others too. All of them are tested against the one principle: “Does it enhance the life of faith of the believer?” If it does, then it’s worthy of belief. As you say, what enhances the life of faith of one believer will not be the same for the other believer. Yet, they are both believers and both can be saints.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[MarkThompson]

All of them are tested against the one principle: “Does it enhance the life of faith of the believer?” If it does, then it’s worthy of belief.

Surely this can’t be right.

 

[Joannm]

Surely this can’t be right.

I think it can be right with the caveat that it does not go against Catholic dogma and tradition. The apparitions in Bayside NY certainly, one could say, enhanced the faith of those believers, but the revelations were so against Catholic teachings that it could not be deemed worthy of belief.

 

[MarkThompson]

I think it can be right with the caveat that it does not go against Catholic dogma and tradition. The apparitions in Bayside NY certainly, one could say, enhanced the faith of those believers, but the revelations were so against Catholic teachings that it could not be deemed worthy of belief.

Sure, but I could say that Mary appeared to me last night to announce that we should all recommit ourselves to prayer, penance, and service to the poor. A good spiritual message, but not remotely worthy of belief as an apparition, since I just made it up and it’s a complete sham.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Surely this can’t be right.

Theres three aspects which are always considered.

First: To not turn away from interior inspirations, but always tell everything to your confessor. If you recognize that these interior inspirations refer to your own self; this is to say, they are for the good of your soul or for the good of other souls, Your urged to follow them; and you must not neglect them, but always do so in consultation with your confessor.
Second: If these inspirations are not in accord with the faith or the spirit of the Church, they must be rejected immediately as coming from the evil spirit.
Third: If these inspirations do not refer to souls, in general, nor specifically to their good, you should not take them too seriously, and it would be better to even ignore them.

Along these lines begins the inquiry. Fatima is a unique message to be sure.

 

[JReducation]

Sure, but I could say that Mary appeared to me last night to announce that we should all recommit ourselves to prayer, penance, and service to the poor. A good spiritual message, but not remotely worthy of belief as an apparition, since I just made it up and it’s a complete sham.

I see your concern and it’s legitimate. There are two parts here that we use in theology.

First:

The experience must enhance the faith of the believer. Any experience that is in conflict with the faith of the Church will not enhance the faith of the believer. We must understand that faith means the faith of the Church, not just doing some nice thing.

Second:

The sham, as you call it, is very important and this is why the Church tests the veracity of the allegation. The Church will not even look at an allegation, unless it has some element of faith in it.

Let’s say that you do this. You may or may not get the Church’s attention, because what you’re saying is consistent with the faith. That’s why I said that this is first question. “Does it strengthen the faith of the believer?” But it’s not the last question. The next set of questions have to do with you. Your credibility must be tested. We see this in every case. The credibility of the visionaries is tested.

I hope this little bit, which is over simplified for the sake of fitting it into a single post, helps.

I should add one more thing. The Church feels obliged to look at some of these allegations to protect people from shams as you call them. But she really does not have a great interest in doing so. She never has.

I always go back to the example of St. Francis and the stigmata. He was the first known stigmatist. However, both Pope Gregory IX and Brother Elias (the Superior General) agreed that it was insignificant and never mentioned it when deciding to canonize or not to canonize. The important thing was his faith, not the miracle, which was huge, because there were no known cases. Yet, it was swept under the rug as unimportant.

To this day, it’s only important to the Franciscans. We have it on our liturgical calendar as a Solemnity on September 17. It’s a Holy Day of Obligation for us. The rest of the Church goes on with its ordinary liturgical calendar.

As you can see, miracles have their place, but they don’t drive the Church. They augment the faith of people, sometimes more and sometimes less.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[MarkThompson]

But it’s not the last question. The next set of questions have to do with you. Your credibility must be tested. We see this in every case. The credibility of the visionaries is tested.

I hope this little bit, which is over simplified for the sake of fitting it into a single post, helps.

Yes, Brother, that helps, thanks. No apparition worthy of belief can be spiritually harmful, but certainly not everything that is spiritually beneficial can be worthy of belief.

 

[JReducation]

Yes, Brother, that helps, thanks. No apparition worthy of belief can be spiritually harmful, but certainly not everything that is spiritually beneficial can be worthy of belief.

Bingo

I always knew you were smart. Afterall, you have the same name that I once had.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[beehumble]

snip…

Second, Christ does not ask the Church to do what is contrary to her structure. The fact that Sr. Lucia was a young girl when she heard the message and obviously did not know the theology of the Sacrament of Holy Orders, raises the important question, did the young Lucia understand that bishops and pope need not be in contact to be united in sacrament and that there is not further or deeper union. A vote of confidence between them is not the same as union. Union is defined by the sacrament, not by concensus. Do you see this part?

Third, all the we have is Sr. Lucia’s word on this matter. The pontiff must be very careful here. Sister can misunderstand what is being said to her. You seem to take her at her word, assuming that she understood what she was hearing and saying. …snip…

Fourth, no we did not study why the miracle of Fatima or any other miracle. Miracles are not studied in Catholic theology. They’re not an area of study in theology. There are two areas of philosophy that deal with uncommon pehonomenon: Phenomenology and Metaphyscics. Neither are branches of theology. They are studied for the purpose of learning the tools to recognize the supernatural. Mystical theology goes much deeper than miracles. It concerns itself with the operation of grace in the soul.

In this case, the Mystical Theologian is much more interested in the life of prayer of the children, the anatomy of their souls, their life of contemplation, the operations of the Holy Spirit in their lives, the workings of grace, the development of perfect charity, their progress through the stages of prayer, the presence of God in the soul itself, not in the miracle, the correlation between their lives of private prayer, sacraments, works of charity, and common life, and finally, the personality of the indvidual. You must always look for psychological stability in the person. The mind can do many things, you want to make sure that this is the work of God. When you have gathered all of this data, you must then compare it to the experience of the msytics of old, the teachings of the Scriptures, the Dessert Fathers, and the doctrines of the Church. You also weigh in the law givers: Augustine, Albert, Francis, Benedict and Basil. All of this has to tie in. If it all the pieces of the puzzle fit with the passion of Christ, then you have a mystical experience. But then you must move on to the next step, that is the teachings of the mystic.

Mystics teach faith, not beliefs. They go deeper. Some great examples are men and women such as: Teresa of Avila and John of the Cross; Francis of Assisi and Clare of Assisi; John Paul II, Mother Teresa of Calcutta, Elizabeth Ann Seton, Brother Lawrence, Francis of Osuna, Julian of Norwich, Catherine of Genoa, Meister Eckert . . . these are mystics. Examine their writings and you’ll see that it’s a very different content and focus that has nothing to do with miracles and that minimize the importance of the miracles in their own lives, those that had miracles. Some never mention miracles such as: John Paul II, Elizabeth Ann, Mother Teresa, St. Francis of Assisi. They don’t mention miracles in their writings. We know about some, because other people mention them, not they. They speak about the operation of grace. Does that give you an idea of what Catholic Mystical Theology does and what it studies?

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

I think one needs to get their head out of the books, and pray more. Pope John Paul mentioned that many have lost the sense of the mystical.

All this dancing around the elephant in the room, the elephant being Fatima. Too much mumbo jumbo here in an effort to try to avoid or lessen Fatima. And with all this avoidance of the elephant, still no suggested answer to the question of the why of Fatima?

The question remains: Why did God do the whole Fatima thing?

[Fatima is not over. Pope Benedict XVI recently pointed this out, too.
It continues until “In the end, my Immaculate Heart will Triumph.” The end of what, one might ask?]

All I can suggest is to pray more rosaries, and to contemplate all related to Fatima - the angel of 1916, the miracle of the sun witnessed by 70,000, the fact that the Holy Trinity and Blessed Mary appeared together to tell Sr. Lucia it was now time to make the consecration, the fact that the pope in union with the bishops of the world

(no not together in a room , and no, not the faulty statement of a child - if the chosen child could not deliver an accurate message, does not one think God in His wisdom would choose another to do so? Or that the holy Spirit would ensure the accuracy of such an important message similar to the lines of Scripture where Jesus says, *Remember, you are not to prepare your defense beforehand, for **I myself shall give you a wisdom in speaking *that all your adversaries will be powerless to resist or refute. (Luke 21:14-15) ?)

were asked to make the consecration, and all the prophecies mentioned or shown by Blessed Mary happened, including the shooting of the pope on 13 May 1981, the Feast of Our Lady of Fatima.

Contemplate the question “Why did God do the whole Fatima thing?”
And pray, especially the rosary. Fatima is not over, so pray hard, and encourage others to pray, especially the rosary. I entered into this thread to try to counter a notion I detected here that seemed to want to minimize Fatima, denials to the contrary aside.

So I want to remind all those reading this thread that Fatima is not over and you and I still need to pray, especially the rosary. And try to make the First Saturdays.

That is all I have.

God bless you.

 

[pnewton]

I think one needs to get their head out of the books, and pray more.

That is a determination no one can make for others, but only for oneself. Not all are called to be mystics.
Pope John Paul mentioned that many have lost the sense of the mystical.

The question remains: Why did God do the whole Fatima thing?

That is something I did answer and find easily answered. Mary appeared for the reason she always speaks - to strenthgen faith in her Son. This appearance has been a source of inspiration and faith to millions, especially in Europe where such faith is sorely needed.

When Mary appeared to St. Juan Diego, she inspired millions to convert and remains probably the single greatest (in terms of numbers) apparition of all time. However, like her Son, the Good Shepherd, it is not numbers that matter the most, as even one lost sheep is worth searching for. Thus, the Catholic Church does not rate apparitions like a stock market broker on perfomance

 

[JReducation]

I think one needs to get their head out of the books, .

My dear friend . . . if it were not for books we would not be having this discussion. Every great spiritual movement in the Church has been examined and approved against the backdrop of what is in the great works of theology and philosophy.

St. Teresa of Avila began by reading the Third Spiritual Alphabet of Francisco de Osuna. Francisco de Osuna began by reading the great works of St. Bonaventure. St. Bonaventure began by reading the works of St. Francis of Assisi. St. Francis of Assisi began by reading the Gospel.

You can go in the other direction too. Start with any of these people and go forward. Every belief that we have in the Church is rooted in some previous work of theology and philosophy.

No one is trying to deny Fatima. What we are trying to do is to protect people from being made to feel guilty if they don’t have a devotion to Our Lady under that title.

As to Fatima not being over . . . it stands to reason. Man must continue to pray and to convert from sin. Jesus will continue to call men to faith until the end of time. Quite often, he does it through his mother.

Why Fatima? Pnewton answered this and I did to. Fatima strengthened the faith of millions of people. That was its purpose.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Why Fatima? Pnewton answered this and I did to. Fatima strengthened the faith of millions of people. That was its purpose.

Would I be wrong to say that that was pretty much the purpose of all the approved apparitions we’ve had?

 

[pnewton]

Would I be wrong to say that that was pretty much the purpose of all the approved apparitions we’ve had?

I actually did say that: “Mary appeared for the reason she always speaks - to strenthgen faith in her Son.”

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

I think one needs to get their head out of the books, and pray more…

Very disrespectful to a religious who is giving his time to try and help you understand the Teachings of the Church. Maybe you need to be a bit more humble.

 

[beehumble]

Blessed Mary prophecy made at Fatima in 1917:
“In the end, my Immaculate Heart will triumph”

Pope Benedict at Fatima in May, 2010:
“May the seven years which separate us from the centenary of the apparitions hasten the fulfillment of the prophecy of the triumph of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, to the glory of the Most Holy Trinity.”

God bless you.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Lets look at this from another angle. All to often today we hear how the Catholic Church is so quick to approve an Apparition, Miracle or Vision. Really its very much the opposite. Have you ever read “The Devine Mercy of my Soul, Dairy of Saint Faustina”. Its on-line, check it out. Here we see a window into a Saint who was met with a critical view for decades. Belief was a very long time coming, matter of fact her book was on the condemned list till Pope John Paul II realized the error. So in fact it was 60 years condemned.

Or even better yet look at Medjugorje? Again we have a sight and Seers which in truth has been going on for Decades. Not a couple years but decades. And there is no approval by the Catholic Church. very much on the contrary its met with great apprehension and rightfully so.

Anyway, I believe you get my point here. Yet what I believe is critical is that should you not find it in yourself to believe through faith, Fatima or anything deemed “Worthy of Belief” by the Vatican, then be carefull what you reject through lack of understanding. Its better to say “I’m not convinced and fully understanding” than to quickly google and judge and say “I don’t believe”. Then to wrongly move forward from there and criticise.

Worse yet The Blessed Mother receives much contempt in our day. Its a fools game to blaspheme against the Blessed Mother and Holy Spirit. This is a path which is clearly spoken on in “Mark” in the NT. Its simply smart and the right thing to do, to say “I don’t know” and take no sin upon your Soul, thus no part of it. If Fatima leads you to the point where you find contempt for Our Lady? I urge you to avoid it and get it out of your mind.

I could honestly understand a skeptic, but I can’t understand those who simply condemn and then judge Mary, thus God. Its ignorance or evil and its that simple, its certainly not Christian. I could also understand those who believe that through their understanding of faith and the Bible that they don’t need the Blessing of Our Lady. Thats fine and your choice. But I can’t understand the contempt and foolishness. To think a simple human being has the wisdom and knowledge to pass judgement on Mary and the Holy Family thus God is ridiculous. You must understand, when you talk about Mary in anyway but respect, you are already making a judgement. Thats not for Christians to do, and thats Bible. I can only begin to comprehend the love God so clearly has for the Holy Family through my love for my family. I Pray for these Souls, they simply do not know what they are doing. Just as Christ himself said in Calvary.

If any Christian, I repeat any Christian judges the Blessed Mother then in truth they are not a Christian or are deceived and deceiving. Hows’ it possible to read Luke then pass judgement on Mary? I can comprehend that. I’d be very cautious here. And I can assure you its taken me decades to Pray to Our Lady. And I come from a family whos done this for generations not just a few years. But I never in my wildest dream spoke in any way but respect for the Blessed Mother. I simply did what I have mentioned in this thread. But I can also tell you this. Nothing has bought me closer to Christ than the Blessed Mother. Not the Bible, Mass, School, nothing. She brings all to her Son and with alarming speed. Today I believe it wasn’t I seeking faith in Christ but Mary leading me and showing me what I needed to see. And the areas I was miserably failing in she quickly corrected. I’m convinced, so much so that the Rosary is a daily part on my life today.

Believe what you want, but be carefull what you don’t believe then speak on in a critical way. Take the advice of a sinner on this one.

 

[JReducation]

Lets look at this from another angle. All to often today we hear how the Catholic Church is so quick to approve an Apparition, Miracle or Vision. Really its very much the opposite. Have you ever read “The Devine Mercy of my Soul, Dairy of Saint Faustina”. Its on-line, check it out. Here we see a window into a Saint who was met with a critical view for decades. Belief was a very long time coming, matter of fact her book was on the condemned list till Pope John Paul II realized the error. So in fact it was 60 years condemned.

Or even better yet look at Medjugorje? Again we have a sight and Seers which in truth has been going on for Decades. Not a couple years but decades. And there is no approval by the Catholic Church. very much on the contrary its met with great apprehension and rightfully so.

Anyway, I believe you get my point here. Yet what I believe is critical is that should you not find it in yourself to believe through faith, Fatima or anything deemed “Worthy of Belief” by the Vatican, then be carefull what you reject through lack of understanding. Its better to say “I’m not convinced and fully understanding” than to quickly google and judge and say “I don’t believe”. Then to wrongly move forward from there and criticise.

Worse yet The Blessed Mother receives much contempt in our day. Its a fools game to blaspheme against the Blessed Mother and Holy Spirit. This is a path which is clearly spoken on in “Mark” in the NT. Its simply smart and the right thing to do, to say “I don’t know” and take no sin upon your Soul, thus no part of it. If Fatima leads you to the point where you find contempt for Our Lady? I urge you to avoid it and get it out of your mind.

I could honestly understand a skeptic, but I can’t understand those who simply condemn and then judge Mary, thus God. Its ignorance or evil and its that simple, its certainly not Christian. I could also understand those who believe that through their understanding of faith and the Bible that they don’t need the Blessing of Our Lady. Thats fine and your choice. But I can’t understand the contempt and foolishness. To think a simple human being has the wisdom and knowledge to pass judgement on Mary and the Holy Family thus God is ridiculous. You must understand, when you talk about Mary in anyway but respect, you are already making a judgement. Thats not for Christians to do, and thats Bible. I can only begin to comprehend the love God so clearly has for the Holy Family through my love for my family. I Pray for these Souls, they simply do not know what they are doing. Just as Christ himself said in Calvary.

If any Christian, I repeat any Christian judges the Blessed Mother then in truth they are not a Christian or are deceived and deceiving. Hows’ it possible to read Luke then pass judgement on Mary? I can comprehend that. I’d be very cautious here. And I can assure you its taken me decades to Pray to Our Lady. And I come from a family whos done this for generations not just a few years. But I never in my wildest dream spoke in any way but respect for the Blessed Mother. I simply did what I have mentioned in this thread. But I can also tell you this. Nothing has bought me closer to Christ than the Blessed Mother. Not the Bible, Mass, School, nothing. She brings all to her Son and with alarming speed. Today I believe it wasn’t I seeking faith in Christ but Mary leading me and showing me what I needed to see. And the areas I was miserably failing in she quickly corrected. I’m convinced, so much so that the Rosary is a daily part on my life today.

Believe what you want, but be carefull what you don’t believe then speak on in a critical way. Take the advice of a sinner on this one.

I’m a little confused. I have not seen anyone here say that they do not believe or that they do not honor Our Lady. What I have seen here is people try to refute that the Miracle of Fatima must be accepted as doctrine. I have seen many of us argue that the message of Fatima is not new, but very consistent with the entire message of revelation: pray and turn away from sin. I have seen people say that the miracle of Fatima is not one that is revered by the universal Church, for example the Oriental Catholics do not revere it. But that is not to say that one is mocking or offending Our Lady. That’s just a fact. You’ll probably get very few Oriental Catholics who have a devotion to Our Lady of Fatima, but they certainly have a strong Marian spirituality, almost mystical.

Again, not one is denying the role of Mary in salvation history. The resistance is to having the Miracle of Fatima pushed on Catholics as if it were something that the Church required Catholics to accept and revere. If that is the case, then the Oriental Catholic Churches and the Orthodox Churches are in trouble. They don’t pay much attention to Fatima, just as we don’t pay much attention to the miracles in the East. Do you see what I’m saying?

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Hesychios]

Wow, my ears picked up when I read this …

… Its a fools game to blaspheme against the Blessed Mother and Holy Spirit. …

I don’t think anyone has blasphemed against either on this thread (at least, as far as I know), but I think that it is very wrong to be linking these two august subjects in the same sentence on the topic of either blasphemy or respect, as if to imply some equivalence.

" … Amen (truly), I say to you, all sins and all blasphemies that people utter will be forgiven them. But whoever blasphemes against the holy Spirit will never have forgiveness, but is guilty of an everlasting sin."
Mark 3:28-29 NAB

We should keep this in mind, these are the very words of the Lord.

I think we can all agree there is no confusing the two.