Fatima NOT DOGMA

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I haven’t quoted anyone on “this thread”. You’ll have to excuse me if my thoughs drifted to the “general contempt” the Blessed Mother receives in this day and age.

If its doesn’t apply. Throw it out the window.

Any links to the position of Fr Gruner with the CC? I’ve also heard much about this but not from the CC.
 
I have a few cents that I think are not coming up in the thread.

While there are not any church documents to suggest that Fatima is a kind of super-private revelation there are things that must be honestly considered.

No private revelation can contain any new doctrine that can be considered as Divine Revelation analogous to the prophets down to Our Lord and then the Apostles. Nobody should doubt this at all.

The real question is not about whether or not new doctrine is revealed but whether or not God has given us a command that He intends us to obey and as such has to be considered not as a revelation but as a Public Command from God which we must obey.

While I in no way wish to try and make anyone believe absolutely with divine undoubting Faith that the Fatima command absolutely comes from God, 1 it would seem from our knowledge of Physics that the observed miracle can only come from God and 2 since the Church obeyed the command to make the consecration - therefore it would seem that there are two reasons to attribute divine origin to Fatima and they are quite weighty ones.

God Bless

Br. Paul
 
We should keep this in mind, these are the very words of the Lord.

I think we can all agree there is no confusing the two.
That all depends on how you view Fatima and the Visitation of Christ in 1925 and exactly what He said. Fatima receives much attention due to the Miracle of the Sun and the Apparitions of the Blessed Mother in 1917. Yet I have to tell you, what I find very facinating are the two personal visits from Christ. Here this would also be the words of Christ but through a personal visitation to a Seer. At this Visitation He spoke on the sins against the Blessed Mother which btw wouldn’t be forgiven either. Unless you specifically Prayed to Our Lady and asked for forgiveness. Kind of ironic isn’t it, that the very person many chose to disrespect, is the very person you’ll have to find forgiveness from?🙂

As far as “August” I have no clue what that refers to. I was under the assumption [excuse me for that] that since we were talking about Fatima then the visitation from Christ would be known. Again I was wrong to assume.
 
What seems interesting to me is the simple fact that , Why would anyone object to Fatima? What did Our Lady ask? Go to Mass and Confession and Recieve holy Communion on the First Saturday of Five consecutive months for reparation for the Sins of Mankind that Offend JESUS?

Is it me - or is going to Mass , Confessing and Receiveing holy Communion on a First Saturday somehow now a BAD THING?

How are we harmed?

Or praying for the Conversion of Sinners? For repentance?
Agree.

Why is that our Holy Mother’s admonishment/warning to practice our Faith and cease offending God by sin, or face the consequences, rejected by some of our fellow Catholics?
 
Here’s a shortened clip of what Christ said. He went into great detail with this and mentioned 5-specific sins against the Blessed Mother. And also about the first 5- saturdays etc…

“to outrage Her Immaculate Heart, which is the Sanctuary of the Holy Spirit. This is committing ‘the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, which will not be forgiven in this world or in the next’.”

My daughter, the reason is simple. There are five types of offenses and blasphemies committed against the Immaculate Heart of Mary:
Code:
1. Blasphemies against the Immaculate Conception. 

2. Blasphemies against Her Virginity. 

3. Blasphemies against Her Divine Maternity, in refusing at the same time to recognize Her as the Mother of men. 

4. The blasphemies of those who publicly seek to sow in the hearts of children indifference or scorn, or even hatred of this Immaculate Mother. 

5. The offenses of those who outrage Her directly in Her holy images.
“Here, My daughter, is the reason why the Immaculate Heart of Mary inspired Me to ask for this little act of reparation …” Jesus Christs, message at Fatima.

So the reality of how to be forgiven for these sins becomes complex.

Whats being referred to here is the “THE DEVOTION OF REPARATION” which was part of the message from Our Lady of Fatima. Which is also tradition in the CC. Yet Christ specifically speaks of the the First Five Saturdays as mentioned by the Blessed Mother. And there are other quotes of what Jesus Christ mentions in referrence to this. And Our Lord contiues on to mention while the First Saturdays is CC reality. He is most concerned with what His Mother’s message of Fatima was/is.

Anyway this is brief idea of the words Christ left at Fatima. “Pontevedra” would be one the sights Christ appeared in case anyone want to research. But from here you can gain a better perspective of the previous post and where I’m coming from.

I wasn’t referring to specifically what anyone said on this thread. And I agree its a respectfull thread. The gravity of the message of Christ, how it refers to the Blessed Mother and the Bible is my thinking and the reality of Fatima.
 
… what I find very facinating are the two personal visits from Christ. Here this would also be the words of Christ but through a personal visitation to a Seer. At this Visitation He spoke on the sins against the Blessed Mother which btw wouldn’t be forgiven either. Unless you specifically Prayed to Our Lady and asked for forgiveness.
This sounds heretical to me.
 
This sounds heretical to me.
I hear you. I’m at a loss for words at this point. I sort of viewed all this as if it was over, as I’m sure most did. The converstion of Russia, the 3rd Secret, all been gone over and over. Then…along Benedict comes with the May 2010 Homily? No need to reiterate. I think a paragraph of it is posted on this thread somewhere. Anyway, the idea that He mentions we have a 7-year window still open left more questions that answers. Not sure what to make of it, but to procede with caution.

Without a doubt we are in the Christian history of the future. So I believe a aspect of caution is called for. You know as I do the Old Testament brought foward the New Testament. I believe we elapsed another significant amout of time. If we think time-lines? It would make perfect sense. If we look at the world today also it would make sense. But here we enter into possibilites and whats probable. You know, not to change the subject but we kicked it around a bit about the Orthodox/Catholic being in full communion. here again thats a major, major change in Christian History. Also the two leaders of the Catholic Church past and present in John Paul II and Benedict again shows significant change. A 50-year period elapsed before these two disciples appear with such an evangelical presence and message. Then of course here with the Miracles and message of Fatima, which many scholars consider the most significant spiritual message of the last 100-years?

Frankly I don’t what to make of it all. Has me paying attention closer than ever before though. But to downplay all of this? Thats not the feeling I get. I believe raising attention to exactly what has happened is whats called for. Then from there what will be will be. At that point I can feel like I did mine. Instead of saying, “man, I seen that coming and should have said something” I rarely play that part in life. Life just hasn’t afforded me that opportunity. I rather be wrong and have all work out fine. Than say nothing and have everything turn out disasterous…lol

Through Free-Will we have a part in our future. The Lord didn’t place us here with a totally predestined future. We know Good triumphs through Christ. Its believed we are in the accute stage of that battle. Is this the reality of the Blessed Mother and Her Victory over evil? I have a feeling were gonna come to some truth of this in our life and in todays society. Certainly there’s something the Pope knows that we don’t. That was one heck of a mystical message in May.

Whats important is we pay attention so another 200 years down the road Christians look back and say “What were they thinking?” Hind sight is always 20-20, its pretty hard to see the forest when your in it though. If our past hasn’t taught us nothing else, its proved that.

Lets be safe not sorry.

God Bless, GT
 
Here’s a shortened clip of what Christ said. He went into great detail with this and mentioned 5-specific sins against the Blessed Mother. And also about the first 5- saturdays etc…

“to outrage Her Immaculate Heart, which is the Sanctuary of the Holy Spirit. This is committing ‘the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, which will not be forgiven in this world or in the next’.”

My daughter, the reason is simple. There are five types of offenses and blasphemies committed against the Immaculate Heart of Mary:
  1. Blasphemies against the Immaculate Conception.
  2. Blasphemies against Her Virginity.
  3. Blasphemies against Her Divine Maternity, in refusing at the same time to recognize Her as the Mother of men.
  4. The blasphemies of those who publicly seek to sow in the hearts of children indifference or scorn, or even hatred of this Immaculate Mother.
  5. The offenses of those who outrage Her directly in Her holy images.
“Here, My daughter, is the reason why the Immaculate Heart of Mary inspired Me to ask for this little act of reparation …” Jesus Christs, message at Fatima.
Jesus appeared at Fatima?? I thought only Mary appeared to the children.

Regardless, no private appartion may add to public revelation which you seem to be claiming here.

That a sin against Mary is as bad as a sin against the Holy Spirit. One is part of the deposit of faith, part of public revelation, the other is derived through a private revelation and according to the catechism, paragrpah 67, “. It is not their role to improve or complete Christ’s definitive Revelation” which you seem to be claiming this private revelation does.

It does not matter that the apparition was of Jesus rather than Mary.
 
lol…I’m not claiming anything. I’m just giving it to you as I received it through researching Fatima. You can reach your own conclusion which is what all are invited to do with Fatima in general. That which you highlighted above is what the Seer revealed was told to her by Christ. Its not my own thinking, its straight from Fatima. Which also in this period the CC deems relevant.

So at this point there’s everyones opinion and then what Pope Benedict XVI said on the issue.

“May the seven years which separate us from the centenary of the apparitions hasten the fulfillment of the prophecy of the triumph of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, to the glory of the Most Holy Trinity.”

As I mentioned, what Pope Benedict XVI states here, I’m not sure what to make of it.

Thoughts?
 
I speak for a lot of traditional catholics on this site- I wouldn’t trust any pope who does not believe in Fatima.
As someone who does tend to believe in Fatima, I can tell you that as far as the Church is concerned, you would be dead wrong. What has been related here as the difference between public and private revelation is quite true.

As for speaking “for a lot of traditional catholics on this site,” well, this is symptomatic of what’s wrong with a lot of “traditionalists”…they put their mind above the mind of the Church.
 
This sounds heretical to me.
I think you have a point. I do not know what is claimed that Jesus said at Fatima. Indeed, it is news to me that He appeared and spoke. However, I do know the Jesus spoke clearly in Holy Scripture that** all** sin may be forgiven save** one**. This blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is defined in the catechism (CCC #1864).

“Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.” There are no limits to the mercy of God, but anyone who deliberately refuses to accept his mercy by repenting, rejects the forgiveness of his sins and the salvation offered by the Holy Spirit. Such hardness of heart can lead to final impenitence and eternal loss.
Note that Mary is not mentioned.
 
I think you have a point. I do not know what is claimed that Jesus said at Fatima. Indeed, it is news to me that He appeared and spoke. However, I do know the Jesus spoke clearly in Holy Scripture that** all** sin may be forgiven save** one**. This blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is defined in the catechism (CCC #1864).

“Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.” There are no limits to the mercy of God, but anyone who deliberately refuses to accept his mercy by repenting, rejects the forgiveness of his sins and the salvation offered by the Holy Spirit. Such hardness of heart can lead to final impenitence and eternal loss.
Note that Mary is not mentioned.
Yes, thats what Hesychios and I referred to above.

I believe the point brought up by the Seer at Fatima is that the Miracles at Fatima including the appearences of the Blessed Mother “are through the will of the Holy Spirit”. Christ appeared there several times and apparently this is all He spoke on and confirmed this also. If indeed this is true “which I personally believe it is” then its the word of God, and there wouldn’t be anything heretical about it, matter of fact it would be correctly aligned with the Bible by the way its explained by the Seer and written at Fatima. And you take this to the bank, if there is anything heretical preached by Fatima, the CC would be right on top of it. And wouldn’t on the contrary be doing public Homilys at Fatima to confirm its reality.

And Fatima? There is so much information and so many appearences which occured over a half a century it becomes in depth research. Then to read what everyone directly involved wrote? That becomes another process. There were Three appearences from Christ “which I am aware of”. There may have even been more which I’m not aware of. I have read all the info on “these three” simply do to facination. Initially I wasn’t aware Christ had appeared either. The letters written by the Seer’s Mother Superior are in themself facinating.

Anyway as I mention, what will become of it? I have not the slightest idea. Also its worth noting that upon confrontation the Seer also worked from memory on much of what was told to her. While in her later years she specifically wrote everything down she was told, initially she didn’t do this. So, when we speak from memory? I’m not sure also how much becomes an interpretation of what was said? I would imagine it wouldn’t be far off, yet still it wouldn’t be 100% accurate either. Which ironically “if I remember correctly” the Seer also mentions this herself.

Yet still its obvious from this last page of posting that critism is added with zero understanding of actually what happened? Its sort of like talking about a Book you haven’t Read.🤷 If in fact you don’t believe in Divine Intervention? And thats the premise your working on? Then really thats what you should state, why beat around the bush? If I didn’t believe it, I would be right up front and let you know. There is no question about what I am saying about Fatima since all above are direct quotes from Fatima. So it really comes down to your own belief. So when you state heretical? You would be saying you belief Fatima is heretical and what apparently God said. I’m just the messenger here. There is no inaccuracy with anything I quoted on Fatima. Your welcome to research this. So in other words your commenting on a topic you know very little about. Easy now, don’t get upset, I"m just saying. Wouldn’t I be right on this point?

One fact you can be certain of, and this why we follow the Church. They researched this inside out and didn’t miss anything. Then Pope Benedict XVI did a public Two-Page Homily on this on May 13th 2010. Which also can be googled and read in its complete context.

Now when we have the Catholic Church investigate and then deem Fatima “Worthy of Belief” the reason why this is done has to be clearly understood also. Not the fact that it was done. Which relates directly back to the OP.

God Bless, GT
 
Its sort of like talking about a Book you haven’t Read. … So in other words your commenting on a topic you know very little about. Easy now, don’t get upset, I"m just saying. Wouldn’t I be right on this point?
I have “read the book” multiple time, both the Holy Book and the CCC. Both are worth taking time to read. So, as you put it, "I’m just the messenger here. There is no inaccuracy with anything I quoted on (the Bible or the CCC) Your welcome to research this. So in other words your commenting on a topic you know very little about. Easy now, don’t get upset, I"m just saying. Wouldn’t I be right on this point?" I understand what the one and only unforgivable sin is and it has nothing to do with Mary. Perhaps the lesson here is that apparitions, as private revelation, must take a back seat to divine public revelation and the authority that resides in the keys of Peter.

Here is another public revelation received through St. Paul:
I am amazed that you are so quickly forsaking the one who called you by (the) grace (of Christ) for a different gospel
(not that there is another). But there are some who are disturbing you and wish to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach (to you) a gospel other than the one that we preached to you, let that one be accursed! 7 As we have said before, and now I say again, if anyone preaches to you a gospel other than the one that you received, let that one be accursed! (Galations 1:6-9)
 
I have “read the book” multiple time, both the Holy Book and the CCC. Both are worth taking time to read. So, as you put it, "I’m just the messenger here. There is no inaccuracy with anything I quoted on (the Bible or the CCC) Your welcome to research this. So in other words your commenting on a topic you know very little about. Easy now, don’t get upset, I"m just saying. Wouldn’t I be right on this point?" I understand what the one and only unforgivable sin is and it has nothing to do with Mary. Perhaps the lesson here is that apparitions, as private revelation, must take a back seat to divine public revelation and the authority that resides in the keys of Peter.
This is a known everyone gets that, whats your point? To invalidate whats happening 2000years after the New Testament with God at Fatima?

My point is when the Church approves this and speaks on it as they have. It may very well be doctrine in the future. This is exactly how the process of CC Doctrine works. And its wise to be carefull especially in this area since if indeed this happens, then its an un-needed situation one place’s themself in for no good apparent reason. And this is the relation to the OP.

Now should we continue to repeat a Bible Verse which all are aware of?
 
FYI - I have no problem accepting the visions of the three children at Fatima. These have been approved by the Church. It is what goes* beyond* the miracle at Fatima that one finds on some more extreme sites that I have issues with. I will wait until the Church comments on those opinions before I form an opinion. I will bet however that this twist on the unforgivable sin will not ever be part of the faith.
 
My point is when the Church approves this and speaks on it as they have.
Here is what the Church approved:

users.stargate.net/~ejt/fatapp.htm
"First, to declare as worthy of credence the visions of the children in Cova da Iria, parish of Fatima, of this Diocese on the days of 13th May to October, 1917; "Secondly, to permit officially the devotion of Our Lady of Fatima.
Subsequent visions have not received approval. Even if and when they do, there is nothing about not blasphemy against Mary being unforgivable.
 
This is a known everyone gets that, whats your point? To invalidate whats happening 2000years after the New Testament with God at Fatima?
Nothing invalidates them, they just are not part of the public deposite of faith. They are private revelation and can not add to or improve public revelation, which your claims that a sin against the Virgin Mary (what ever that is) is unforgiveable like a sin against the Holy Spirit.

One is Scriptural and part of the public revelation of the Church, the other is from a private revelation, and IMHO attempts to not only add to but to improve public revelation, which the Church Teaches a private revelation can not do.
 
FYI - I have no problem accepting the visions of the three children at Fatima. These have been approved by the Church. It is what goes* beyond* the miracle at Fatima that one finds on some more extreme sites that I have issues with. I will wait until the Church comments on those opinions before I form an opinion. I will bet however that this twist on the unforgivable sin will not ever be part of the faith.
I not referring to any sight except fatima.org. Which is “the” sight for Fatima. All the info is directly from there and our Pope. And as I mentioned when He spoke on it everything was researched in Depth. No doubt about this. Theres no such thing as one part true and another false. The Sun didn’t Dance in the sky then the Seer told lies? That didn’t happen and is not even logical. And the Church “has” commented on this, read the May 13th 2010 Homily.

Listen, I like to talk and its through respectful debate and confrontation that we gain knowledge. So I hope you don’t feel hurt or upset. Not my intention.

What I do 100% believe. Is that whatever is gonna happen with fatima, will happen in the next Seven Years. Its not by Chance the Pope mentions this. And without a doubt the Vatican knows more than we do in regards to this 7-years. I also believe should the Seven Years elapse without issue? That will be the end of the sensationalism at Fatima. And also because this seven years is mentioned IMHO its a great idea to keep an open mind in regards to fatima. Thats all I’m saying.

The Catholic Churchs in the US have posted much info on this which I also find surprizing. MOF the CC I attend here has info on there websight connecting Pope Leo XIII to this 100 year period with his Vision during Mass at the Vatican. I get the distinct feeling theres more to this than any of us know. And I Pray daily we never have to know by seeing anything dire come to a reality.

Anyway God Bless my friend. Gary
 
I not referring to any sight except fatima.org. Which is “the” sight for Fatima. All the info is directly from there and our Pope. And as I mentioned when He spoke on it everything was researched in Depth. No doubt about this. Theres no such thing as one part true and another false. The Sun didn’t Dance in the sky then the Seer told lies? That didn’t happen and is not even logical. And the Church “has” commented on this, read the May 13th 2010 Homily.
I know there may be some that question this miracle, but I think all here, including me, accept this. I will check out the website you mentioned more in depth, but I will do so with a critical eye as I consider Fr. Gruner a questionable source. I have been appalled in the past at copies of Fatima Crusader.
 
I know there may be some that question this miracle, but I think all here, including me, accept this. I will check out the website you mentioned more in depth, but I will do so with a critical eye as I consider Fr. Gruner a questionable source. I have been appalled in the past at copies of Fatima Crusader.
Yes, fatima.org is part of the Fatima Network which is Fr. Gruner’s orginization and therefore is outside of the Church. Not a good source.

I see that my comment was ignored.
 
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