Fatima NOT DOGMA

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Yes, fatima.org is part of the Fatima Network which is Fr. Gruner’s orginization and therefore is outside of the Church. Not a good source.
I have come to realize that now. However, I will still check it out for a while. So far I have noticed an abundance of scare quotes and leaps of logic not backed by Church documentation. I was hoping to find, and still do, these alleged quotes of Popes, but haven’t found them yet.
 
Why does it seem that so many (so-called) traditionalist Catholics want to raise Fatima to such a level that every Catholic must believe in it?

Fatima is a private revelation and as such is not part of the deposit of faith and is not required to be believed in by any Faithful Catholic, not even the Pope must believe in it to be a Catholic.

Why must someone force their view of spirituality upon everyone else?
Why raise it to the level of either or?

No Catholic is bound to “believe” (be that as it may)…however, there is no need to make it a blaring issue (as if it were an issue).

It’s not part of the deposit of faith yet, there it stands as an approved apparition, for those of us who have the devotion and reverence for the Blessed Mother’s apparitions and messages.

My fellow catholic’s personal devotions and reverences do not affect me adversly instead I am glad that some of my fellow catholics around the world and around the corner have these devotions and reverence. I feel richer for it.

Not dogma…of course.

What is dogma is: Mary ever Virgin; Theotokos; Immaculate Conception and Assumption.

What may (or may not) lay in the future is: Mediatrix; Co-Redemtrix and Advocate…as dogma.

In the meantime there is no need for me (or any other catholic to loose sleep over what we are bound or loosed to believe.

If and when Garabandal & Medjugorje are approved, I will be the happier for it. In the meantime it doesn’t detract from the good fruits it has produced.

Not dogma; not an issue; not a problem…we’re just at peace and the richer for it.
 
“It may very well be doctrine in the future. This is exactly how the process of CC Doctrine works.”

Um, no it doesn’t work like that. In the exercise of the extraordinary magisterium (ie, the Holy Father defining something infallibly by virtue of his authority as successor to Saint Peter), even the Marian dogmas (the Immaculate Conception, the Assumption, etc.) had precedent in the Sacred Tradition handed down by the Apostles and Sacred Tradition is, with Scripture, public revelation. Having acknowledged Fatima to be a private revelation, the Church cannot back up and attempt to make it a part of what was handed down by the Twelve and Saint Paul. Fatima won’t be doctrine or dogma in the future.
 
Um, no it doesn’t work like that.
Incorrect especially your statement about the Immaculate Conception, which came about as direct result of a Marion Apparition.

On 1 May 1948, in Auspicia Quaedam, Pope Pius XII requested the consecration to the Immaculate Heart of every Catholic family, parish and diocese.
In numerous additional messages, and in his encyclicals Fulgens Corona (1953), and Ad Caeli Reginam (1954), Pius XII encouraged the veneration of the Virgin in Fatima.

On 12 and 13 May 2010, Pope Benedict XVI had visited the Sanctuary of Our Lady of Fátima On 12 and 13 May 2010, Pope Benedict XVI had visited the Sanctuary of Our Lady of Fátima and strongly stated his acceptance about the supernatural origin of the Fátima apparitions. Pope Benedict’s homily had pronounced in front of more than 500,000 pilgrims a reference to the Fátima prophecy about the triumph of the Immaculate Heart of Mary and related it to the final “glory of the Most Holy Trinity”.

For those above who seem to claim “they can’t find anything by Pope Benedict XVI” on Fatima? You haven’t looked very hard. Google his May 13th 2010 Homily. Which in parts have been mentioned “several” times on this thread.

Anyway,

The Catholic Church believes the dogma is supported by Scripture (e.g. Mary’s being greeted by Angel Gabriel as “full of grace” or “highly favoured”), {{{as well as either directly or indirectly by the writings of many of the Church Fathers}}}, and often calls Mary the Blessed Virgin (Luke 1:48). Catholic theology maintains that, since Jesus became incarnate of the Virgin Mary, it was fitting that she be completely free of sin for expressing her fiat. (Ott, Fund., Bk 3, Pt. 3, Ch. 2, §3.1.e).

{{{{{{{{{It seemed to Pius XII that the Blessed Virgin Mary herself wished to confirm by some special sign the definition, because, less than four years later, in a French town

The Virgin Mother, youthful and benign in appearance, clothed in a shining white garment, covered with a white mantle and girded with a hanging blue cord, showed herself to a simple and innocent girl at the grotto of Massabielle. And to this same girl, who earnestly inquired the name of her, with whose vision she was favoured, she replied with her eyes raised to heaven and sweetly: “I am the Immaculate Conception.” [18]
For the whole Roman Catholic Church the dogma of the Immaculate Conception gained additional significance from these apparitions of Our Lady of Lourdes in 1858. In Lourdes a 14-year-old girl, Bernadette Soubirous}}}}}}}}}

In the Roman Catholic Church, the Solemnity of the Immaculate Conception is a Holy Day of Obligation, except where conferences of bishops have decided, with the approval of the Holy See, not to maintain it as such. It is a public holiday in some countries.

Among the Church Venerated Marion Feast Days are…

Among the most prominent Marian feast days in the ordinary Roman Catholic Calendar are

January 1 Mary, Mother of God
January 8 Our Lady of Prompt Succor
February 2 Purification of the Virgin
February 11 Our Lady of Lourdes
March 25 Annunciation by Archangel Gabriel (it may be either moved to the day before Palm Sunday should this date be on Holy Week; or to the Monday after the second Sunday of Easter if this date falls on either Friday or Saturday of Holy Week or during Easter Week.
April 26 Our Lady of Good Counsel
May 1 Queen of Heaven
May 13 Our Lady of Fatima
May 24 Mary Help of Christians
May 31 Mary, Mediatrix of all Graces
May 31 Visitation of the Blessed Virgin Mary
June 27 Our Lady of Perpetual Help
July 16 Our Lady of Mount Carmel
August 15 Assumption into Heaven
August 21 Our Lady of Knock
August 22 Queenship of Mary
September 8 Nativity (birth) of the Blessed Virgin Mary
September 12 Most Holy Name of the Blessed Virgin Mary
September 15 Our Lady of Sorrows
October 7 Most Holy Rosary
November 21 Presentation of Mary
December 8 Immaculate Conception
December 12 Our Lady of Guadalupe

FIVE POPEs, Pius XII, Pope John XXIII, Pope Paul VI and Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI, have supported the Fatima messages as supernatural.

And as far as Pope Benedict? His Homily is On-Line.

fatima.org Its a great source of info. As far as the purpose of fatima.org and there cause? Thats an entirely different story. Regardless there’s no better referrence to the facts of fatima. And from that point any specific information you need is easily obtained.
 
Yes, fatima.org is part of the Fatima Network which is Fr. Gruner’s orginization and therefore is outside of the Church. Not a good source.

I see that my comment was ignored.
I don’t find any info on Fr Gruner as I had asked for above. Somone had said Michelle Arnold had posted info? I searched and don’t see it?

And how would you conclude its “outside” the Catholic Church when its a Catholic sight ran by Catholics? And was visited by the Pope this year in May. When we say FATIMA.,. Thats the sight for Fatima. 🤷
 
Incorrect especially your statement about the Immaculate Conception, which came about as direct result of a Marion Apparition.
The declaration of the Immaculate Conception has nothing to do with a private revelation. It was stated in a private revelation but if you look at the document procaliming it you will not find that referenced at all.
I don’t find any info on Fr Gruner as I had asked for above. Somone had said Michelle Arnold had posted info? I searched and don’t see it?

And how would you conclude its “outside” the Catholic Church when its a Catholic sight ran by Catholics? And was visited by the Pope this year in May. When we say FATIMA.,. Thats the sight for Fatima. 🤷
Fr Gruner who runs the Fatima Network is suspended as he refuses to follow the commands of his bishop. His orginization is not recognized by the Catholic Church.

Therefore it is outside the Church.

For an orginization to be operating within the Church it must be acknowledged by the Church and run by Catholics who are faithful.

The official site for Fatima. The one you linked to is connected with the Fatima Network which is not the official voice of Fatima.
 
Dogmatic Definition

For the Roman Catholic Church the dogma of the Immaculate Conception gained additional significance from the reputed apparitions of Our Lady of Lourdes in 1858. At Lourdes a 14-year-old girl, Bernadette Soubirous, claimed that a beautiful woman appeared to her and said, “I am the Immaculate Conception”. Many believe the woman to have been the Blessed Virgin Mary and pray to her as such.

In this sense the dogma of the Immaculate Conception defined by Pope Pius IX is also viewed as a key example of the use of sensus fidelium shared by believers and the Magisterium rather than pure reliance on Scripture and Tradition. The Vatican quotes in this context Fulgens Corona, where Pius XII supported such a faith:

If the popular praises of the Blessed Virgin Mary be given the careful consideration they deserve, who will dare to doubt that she, who was purer than the angels and at all times pure, was at any moment, even for the briefest instant, not free from every stain of sin?
The Roman Catholic tradition has a well-established philosophy for the study of the Immaculate Conception and the veneration of the Blessed Virgin Mary in the field of Mariology, with Pontifical schools such as the Marianum specifically devoted to this.

The fact that all this came after Fatima is significant. The fact that Fatima is already venerated on May 13th in the Catholic Church as a feast day is significant. The fact of what every single Pope since Fatima speaks of its importance is significant.
 
Dogmatic Definition

For the Roman Catholic Church the dogma of the Immaculate Conception gained additional significance from the reputed apparitions of Our Lady of Lourdes in 1858. At Lourdes a 14-year-old girl, Bernadette Soubirous, claimed that a beautiful woman appeared to her and said, “I am the Immaculate Conception”. Many believe the woman to have been the Blessed Virgin Mary and pray to her as such.

In this sense the dogma of the Immaculate Conception defined by Pope Pius IX is also viewed as a key example of the use of sensus fidelium shared by believers and the Magisterium rather than pure reliance on Scripture and Tradition. The Vatican quotes in this context Fulgens Corona, where Pius XII supported such a faith:

If the popular praises of the Blessed Virgin Mary be given the careful consideration they deserve, who will dare to doubt that she, who was purer than the angels and at all times pure, was at any moment, even for the briefest instant, not free from every stain of sin?
The Roman Catholic tradition has a well-established philosophy for the study of the Immaculate Conception and the veneration of the Blessed Virgin Mary in the field of Mariology, with Pontifical schools such as the Marianum specifically devoted to this.

The fact that all this came after Fatima is significant. The fact that Fatima is already venerated on May 13th in the Catholic Church as a feast day is significant. The fact of what every single Pope since Fatima speaks of its importance is significant.
And the source of this is?
 
The declaration of the Immaculate Conception has nothing to do with a private revelation. It was stated in a private revelation but if you look at the document procaliming it you will not find that referenced at all.

Fr Gruner who runs the Fatima Network is suspended as he refuses to follow the commands of his bishop. His orginization is not recognized by the Catholic Church.

Therefore it is outside the Church.

For an orginization to be operating within the Church it must be acknowledged by the Church and run by Catholics who are faithful.

The official site for Fatima. The one you linked to is connected with the Fatima Network which is not the official voice of Fatima.
And wheres the link for Fr Gruner? I fail to find this?
 
Here is a like to the Aposotolic Constitution Ineffabilis Deus which proclaims the Immaculate Conception.

Please show me where Lourdes or any other private revelation is listed as reason for this proclaimation.
And wheres the link for Fr Gruner? I fail to find this?
Right when the web site www.fatima.org loads, if you click on Fatima Priest on the right hand side you see “The Life & Works of Father Nicholas Gruner”.

Also this site is listed as the Fatima Network and it is very common knowledge that Fr Gruner runs the Fatima Network.
 
Here is a like to the Aposotolic Constitution Ineffabilis Deus which proclaims the Immaculate Conception.

Please show me where Lourdes or any other private revelation is listed as reason for this proclaimation.

Right when the web site www.fatima.org loads, if you click on Fatima Priest on the right hand side you see “The Life & Works of Father Nicholas Gruner”.

Also this site is listed as the Fatima Network and it is very common knowledge that Fr Gruner runs the Fatima Network.
I just showed you how Lourdes is related. You see the Feast days of the Church?

I know how to get to fatima.org. Wheres the link about Fr Gruner and his position with the Catholic Church:shrug:

Google “Immaculate Conception” there’s a ton info out here.
 
Google “Pope Pius XII encyclical” on “Fulgens Corona” And you will see Lourdes mentioned in the encyclical.
 
Well as the saying goes, you can lead a horse to water but you can not make him drink.

It is time to move on to more productive matters.

I also want to add your posts are hard to understand so please learn how to use the quote feature.
 
And the source of this is?
And wheres the link for Fr Gruner? I fail to find this?
The two may be one and the same. It would explain a lot.

Here is an article on the suspension of this priest:

catholicinsight.com/online/church/ci_gruner.shtml

Here is a support from the suspension from another side or the spectrum

theotokos.org.uk/pages/fatima/ngruner/wanderer.html

Since Fr. Gruner has no legitimate function as a Catholic priest, his “crusade” is no better than a layman’s blog. He needs to be reconciled to the Church before he preaches at others, beam and mote.
 
I don’t find any info on Fr Gruner as I had asked for above. Somone had said Michelle Arnold had posted info? I searched and don’t see it?

And how would you conclude its “outside” the Catholic Church when its a Catholic sight ran by Catholics? And was visited by the Pope this year in May. When we say FATIMA.,. Thats the sight for Fatima. 🤷
Here, I will link the search results for you.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=178728&highlight=gruner

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=505728&highlight=gruner

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=72847&highlight=gruner

And for extra credit:

catholic.com/thisrock/2003/0301fea2.asp
Another example of a group found wanting is Fr. Nicholas Gruner’s International Fatima Rosary Crusade. Father Gruner’s priestly faculties have been suspended since 1996. His group has been in conflict with the Church for two decades. Essentially Fr. Gruner has accused the Holy Father of lying about the Fatima message and its application in our times.
 
I also found Jimmy Akin particularly insightful, based on his agreement with me.

the six weeks between the announcement of the booklet and its release, Fr. Gruner’s Fatima Center, based in Fort Erie, Ontario, issued three press releases exhorting the Vatican into releasing the secret in the way the Fatima Center desired. The press releases also laid the groundwork for a rejection of the Holy See’s interpretation of the secret if, contrary to Fr. Gruner’s theories, it were interpreted to refer largely or entirely to past events.
catholic.com/thisrock/2000/0009eye.asp
The Fatima Center continues to make its familiar charges that the secret had been “suppressed” and “repressed” for 40 years. It hinted that the release of the secret might be indefinitely delayed due to Vatican malfeasance. It demanded that the secret be released in Sr. Lucia’s own handwriting (which the Holy See did). It questioned the need for any commentary or background to be released in conjunction with the secret. And it denounced Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, prefect of the CDF, for correctly pointing out in an interview that private revelations such as Fatima do not demand the assent of faith—that is, one is not bound under penalty of sin to believe in them.

Unfortunately, the disclosure of the third part of the secret proved too much of a challenge for the world-view of the Fatima Center, which has been predicted on the ideas that the consecration of Russia has not been done and that the third secret could not have been already fulfilled. It issued two press releases claiming that the Vatican’s commentary “white=washed” the third part of the secret and that the secret does not refer to the assassination attempt on John Paul II’s life. What remains to be seen is what Fr. Gruner and his associates will make of the third secret now that it is out and had been shown not to involve many of the things they said for years that it was sure to contain.
and

catholic.com/thisrock/2000/0012ltrs.asp
With due respect to Sr. Kaufman, I have read the arguments of Fr. Gruner and his movement with an open mind and have found them without merit. On many key points they rely on unsubstantiated, unsourced, or unverifiable press accounts, and they exhibit a set of preconceived ideas that are being forced upon those statements that are verifiable.

I would love to see Russia convert to the Catholic faith and would be delighted if that is promised by Fatima. But I must acknowledge, as explained in my article, that the Portuguese word converterá, translated as “will convert,” does not require conversion to the Catholic faith. It can indicate simply turning from a course of destructive behavior.

This is a likely interpretation here. In the second secret, Our Lady explains: “If my requests are heeded, Russia will be converted, and there will be peace; if not, she will spread her errors throughout the world, causing wars and persecutions of the Church. The good will be martyred; the holy father will have much to suffer; various nations will be annihilated.” If we ask ourselves the question “Converted from doing what?” the answer immediately offers itself: from all the other things named in the passage. This is the sense given to the conversion of Russia by John Paul II in his book Crossing the Threshold of Hope.

Further, Sr. Lucia herself has stated that the consecration has been done as Mary wished. This was confirmed by her in the 1980s, a decade in which it is known that she still received revelations from Our Lady.
The search functions are working fine. These two posts took no more than fifteen minutes. I spent far longer on Fr. Gruner’s site and found no substance, but an abundance of rhetoric.
 
Ah you found something, thanks I’ll read it. I haven’t been able to find a thing except what Fr Gruner himself has stated and of course you know what he’s said.

Anyway let me read.

God Bless, GT
 
The only new article is Michelle’s. The others are from 2000.

Regardless, my intention isn’t to argue Fr Gruners position in the church. Nor to promote fatima.org. Nor have I mentioned the 3rd Secret or the Concecration of Russia in any of my posts here. I don’t disagee the 3rd secret or Consecration is done.

The referrence to Fatima here is to Pope Benedicts 2010 Homily May 13th. The use of {fatima. org} is to research the Vistitations by the Seers which is how the sight was mentioned. And they are all documented from before Fr Gruner even came to Fatima. He wasn’t alive in 1925.

These articles are all in referrence to the third secret/consecration. I agree thats an arguement which is un-needed and doesn’t help the CC.

My point of all that is mentioned here, which I once again will say. Is that obviously Fatima is very much relevant in this decade. How isn’t clear. It may well be, as I also stated above to have a reasonable time-line for the sensationalizm that the 3rd-Secret and Russia receive.

I can’t pretend to know exactly what Pope Benedict XVI is referring to. But the fact that he mentions this decade is the Catholic Church and there response to Fatima. Which isn’t over as per the Pope. Did you read the May 2010 Homily? Back in May is when I started researching Fatima. What I found facinating is that Jesus Christ appears and its never mentioned anywhere.

I do believe through the Miracle and the reality that the Blessed Mother appeared and predicted the Miracle ahead of time. That there is a significant importance to what happened there. The fact that the Seer spoke to Christ a few times is facinating wouldn’t you agree?

Also mentioned at the end of the articles Michelle posted is a correlation of Fr Gruners situation, to the same Padre Pio went through with the church. No-ones here to speculate Fr Gruners situation. No one knows how it will turn out. His situation dosen’t detract from the the Catholic Church and Pope Benedicts Homily on Fatima though.

But thanks for the info. 👍
 
Well as the saying goes, you can lead a horse to water but you can not make him drink.

It is time to move on to more productive matters.

I also want to add your posts are hard to understand so please learn how to use the quote feature.
Nobodys leading you to anything. Your assumption was wrong about CC doctrine plan and simple. Isn’t that what you and I were just talking about? You would be wrong again to assume on my intention. Which is clear from pages of posts. And thats not to promote Fatimas sights in any degree.

Nothing wrong with the English or Typing, so I won’t take your problem and make it mine.:rolleyes: What kind of childish game is that? Tit for tat because you were wrong, Wow unreal.
 
The prophecies of Our Lady at Fatima have all come to pass, all would be hopelessly lost if not for her promise that “…in the end my Immaculate Heart will Triumph.” Thank her that she does not predicate that on whether we listened and obeyed her or not or on whether the Church has made her words into Dogma or not.
 
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