Fatima Prayer

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I have a question in regards to the Fatima Prayer and Universal Salvation. The miracle and apparitions are officially recognized by the church as authentic, yes? This would mean that the Church believes that Mary herself instituted the prayer which says, “O my Jesus,Forgive us ours sins, save us from the fires of Hell, lead all souls to Heaven, especially those most in need of thy mercy.”

So Mary asked that we ask Jesus to lead ALL souls to Heaven, meaning that Universal Salvation is a real possibility. If not, why would we be encouraged to pray a futile prayer? I submit that we would not.
 
since God created all souls for heaven and ultimate union for him, that is how we pray. We don’t say “save some of us Lord”.
 
But why would Mary specifically ask us to pray that ALL souls go to Heaven if that were not even a remote possibility? Yes, we as HUMANS would choose to pray for all souls to go to Heaven out of hope and generosity, but why would God’s own mother specifically ask us to pray for something that is not even possible in a prayer that was handed down to us verbatim? It wouldn’t make sense and it would be disingenuous at the same time.
 
God tries to LEAD all souls to heaven every day, He is working with each and every one of us each day till the day we die, does that mean they will all be saved because God is trying to lead and help them? sadly no…but to pray for each person to be led to heaven is a very good thing, we are simply praying for every person in the world, and not just for salvation, but also conversion,
and how else would you put this prayer? God wants us to pray for ALL people, and of course we know that not all people will convert, because they have a free will to say yes or no, but to pray for all is a very charitable thing to do, we are to love our neighbor as our self, and so how would you like to be excluded from that prayer? well…Jesus loves you and everyone else, so that would never happen…
like i said…it’s to “lead” all souls, which means to guide, or influence, or be superior to, or to direct, does that make the prayer make more sense now? it’s not a prayer of “universal salvation” it’s a prayer of increased graces and effort for all.

and aside from that, Mary may have conveyed the message, but it is truly from God, Who is the Creator and Source of all things, and if it is from God and not Mary, then it is a good and perfect thing,
Our blessed Mother does not claim to do or make anything on Her own, she is an humble and obedient servant of God, all things she says and does is out of obedience to God Who truly sends her.

the prayer does not suggest universal salvation, and Our Lady never said anything of the sort, so don’t worry to much about it,

ok, hope this helps, tc.
 
KarmaChameleon said:
I have a question in regards to the Fatima Prayer and Universal Salvation. The miracle and apparitions are officially recognized by the church as authentic, yes? This would mean that the Church believes that Mary herself instituted the prayer which says, “O my Jesus,Forgive us ours sins, save us from the fires of Hell, lead all souls to Heaven, especially those most in need of thy mercy.”

So Mary asked that we ask Jesus to lead ALL souls to Heaven, meaning that Universal Salvation is a real possibility. If not, why would we be encouraged to pray a futile prayer? I submit that we would not.
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Note the word previous to your bolded words. “Lead”. God leads but do we follow?
All souls CAN be saved for God leads us all, but WILL all souls be saved when All souls refuse to follow God’s lead?

So to answer your question, “universal salvation” is a “real possibility” in the same way that “universal” anything is possible. It is “possible” that everyone will agree that abortion is always and forever wrong, unfortunately this is not likely.

Peace
James
 
You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make him drink.

You can lead a soul to heaven, but you can’t override his free will and make him enter.

Betsy
 
KarmaChameleon said:
I agree with what you have said about the Blessed Virgin, but doesn’t the CC teach Universal Salvation? romancatholicism.org/universal-salvation.htm
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um, no…definitely not, try looking on the Vatican’s web site for that and i’m sure you won’t find it,
that would contradict the teaching that once a soul goes to hell it cannot leave…so it’s very much in error.
perhaps they just misunderstood a different teaching or a statement made, which i can understand seeing as how every single bible quote they misinterpreted.
and besides that, there were no doctrines or dogmas declared in Vatican II, so that right there says they don’t know what they’re talking about(in that article)

please don’t believe in that malarkey, the path to heaven is straight and narrow, “If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.”
that is the way, God would not have us believe that all would be saved like that, if that were true then what would be the point to this miserable life? why not just have us all go to heaven now? why test us?
it doesn’t make sense does it.
stick with the teachings of the church from a church approved and trustworthy source, because there are alot of lies and confusions out there,
get yourself a good spiritual director, learn your religion well, otherwise you may fall easily into these heresies,
God cannot contradict Himself, so if you see a teaching that doesn’t match up with another teaching, ask about it, cause there is most likely something wrong or misunderstood.

ok hope this helps, tc.
 
fish90 said:
I thought it is the individual’s decision to go to heaven.

Best,
fish90
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It is in the sense that we choose every day whether to seek after the Kingdom of God in our lives. Whether to accept God’s invitation to real change, repentance, and action (acting on our change and repentance).
If we do accept then our change, our repentance and our actions prepare us to reach out to God in Love at corporeal death and enter into beatific vision.
If not then we prepare ourselves for a different end by our selfish and unrepentant actions.

So - While what you say is above is true, it is not as if God will ask you at judgement where you want to go, rather we will reach out for what we deserve more or less by habit and desire. To God and heaven by those who truly believe; To satan and hell for those who do not truly believe.

Peace
James
 
I do know that Pope John Paul II spoke many times about the possibility of Universal Salvation and the ability of the Holy Spirit to accomplish it in a way known only to God.

Just because the CC hasn’t declared it as dogma per se, doesn’t mean it cannot be true. I love the CC, but it is comprised of men, some of whom have been led by the Holy Spirit and some of whom have not. Also, I don’t see the CCC as necessarily EXCLUDING this possibility.
 
KarmaChameleon said:
I do know that Pope John Paul II spoke many times about the possibility of Universal Salvation and **the ability of the Holy Spirit to accomplish it in a way known only to God. **

Just because the CC hasn’t declared it as dogma per se, doesn’t mean it cannot be true. I love the CC, but it is comprised of men, some of whom have been led by the Holy Spirit and some of whom have not. Also, I don’t see the CCC as necessarily EXCLUDING this possibility.
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Since you asked a question of “men” who comprise the Church it should not surprise you that the answers you received are only those conceivable my “men” using Mans limited intelect and not those that are “known only to God”. 🤷

We can only act upon that which is revealed to us and that is that not all will be saved.
If God wishes to modify that in some future date that is His concern.

Today we must simply do the best we can with what is currently known and that does not include “universal salvation”

Peace
James
 
Universal salvation is a condemned heresy. [Cum Sicut, Pope Pius II, Denz 717b]

We pray for all souls, all souls do not go to Heaven.

Christ has told us:

*Lord, are they few that are saved? But he said to them: Strive to enter by the narrow gate; for many, I say to you, shall seek to enter, and shall not be able.
*
St. Luke (Luke 13:23-24)

“Shall seek”… Shall desire to be saved; but for want of taking sufficient pains, and being thoroughly in earnest, shall not attain to it. ]

*For many are called, but few chosen. *

St. Mark (Mark 20:16)

‘The majority of men shall not see God, excepting those who live justly, purified by righteousness and by every other virtue.’

St. Justin the Martyr

I do not speak rashly, but as I feel and think. I do not think that many priests are saved, but that those who perish are far more numerous.

St. John Chrysostom, Archbishop, Doctor, Father of the Church

‘Out of one hundred thousand sinners who continue in sin until death, scarcely one will be saved.’

St. Jerome, Doctor, Father of the Church

At Fatima, the Blessed Virgin Mary told the three child seers that many souls go to hell because they have no one to pray or make sacrifices for them. In her Memoirs, Sister Lucy describes the vision of hell that Our Lady showed the children at Fatima:
  • “She opened Her hands once more, as She had done the two previous months. The rays [of light] appeared to penetrate the earth, and we saw, as it were, a vast sea of fire. Plunged in this fire, we saw the demons and the souls [of the damned]. The latter were like transparent burning embers, all blackened or burnished bronze, having human forms. They were floating about in that conflagration, now raised into the air by the flames which issued from within themselves, together with great clouds of smoke. Now they fell back on every side like sparks in huge fires, without weight or equilibrium, amid shrieks and groans of pain and despair, which horrified us and made us tremble with fright (it must have been this sight which caused me to cry out, as people say they heard me). The demons were distinguished [from the souls of the damned] by their terrifying and repellent likeness to frightful and unknown animals, black and transparent like burning coals. That vision only lasted for a moment, thanks to our good Heavenly Mother, Who at the first apparition had promised to take us to Heaven. Without that, I think that we would have died of terror and fear.”*
 
Shin said:
Universal salvation is a condemned heresy. [Cum Sicut, Pope Pius II, Denz 717b]

We pray for all souls, all souls do not go to Heaven.

Christ has told us:

Lord, are they few that are saved? But he said to them: Strive to enter by the narrow gate; for many, I say to you, shall seek to enter, and shall not be able.

St. Luke (Luke 13:23-24)

“Shall seek”… Shall desire to be saved; but for want of taking sufficient pains, and being thoroughly in earnest, shall not attain to it. ]

*For many are called, but few chosen. *

St. Mark (Mark 20:16)

‘The majority of men shall not see God, excepting those who live justly, purified by righteousness and by every other virtue.’

St. Justin the Martyr

I do not speak rashly, but as I feel and think. I do not think that many priests are saved, but that those who perish are far more numerous.

St. John Chrysostom, Archbishop, Doctor, Father of the Church

‘Out of one hundred thousand sinners who continue in sin until death, scarcely one will be saved.’

St. Jerome, Doctor, Father of the Church

At Fatima, the Blessed Virgin Mary told the three child seers that many souls go to hell because they have no one to pray or make sacrifices for them. In her Memoirs, Sister Lucy describes the vision of hell that Our Lady showed the children at Fatima:
  • “She opened Her hands once more, as She had done the two previous months. The rays [of light] appeared to penetrate the earth, and we saw, as it were, a vast sea of fire. Plunged in this fire, we saw the demons and the souls [of the damned]. The latter were like transparent burning embers, all blackened or burnished bronze, having human forms. They were floating about in that conflagration, now raised into the air by the flames which issued from within themselves, together with great clouds of smoke. Now they fell back on every side like sparks in huge fires, without weight or equilibrium, amid shrieks and groans of pain and despair, which horrified us and made us tremble with fright (it must have been this sight which caused me to cry out, as people say they heard me). The demons were distinguished [from the souls of the damned] by their terrifying and repellent likeness to frightful and unknown animals, black and transparent like burning coals. That vision only lasted for a moment, thanks to our good Heavenly Mother, Who at the first apparition had promised to take us to Heaven. Without that, I think that we would have died of terror and fear.”*
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This reply really frightens me:eek:.

Then again, I think there is some Marian apparition which claims Jesus will ask each person to repent one last time. Hopefully, these people get a long time in purgatory at the very least.

Best,
fish90
 
fish90 said:
This reply really frightens me:eek:.

Best,
fish90
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Yes, it’s good for that for me too.

If anyone shall say that the fear of hell, whereby by grieving for sins we flee to the mercy of God or refrain from sinning, is a sin or makes sinners worse: let him be anathema.
  • Canons of the Council of Trent
Behold how many there are who are called, and how few who are chosen! And behold, if you have no care for yourself, your perdition is more certain than your amendment, especially since the way that leads to eternal life is so narrow.

St. John of the Cross, Priest, Friar, Doctor of the Church

If I saw anyone about to fall into a pit or a fire, would I not run up to him and warn him, and do all in my power to help him from falling in? Why should I not do this much to keep sinners from falling into the pit and fires of Hell?

Neither can I understand why other priests who believe the selfsame truths as I do, as we all must do, do not preach or exhort their flock so that they might avoid this unbearable eternity of Hell. It is still a source of wonder to me how the laity – those men and women blessed with the Faith – do not give warning to those who need it. If a house were to catch fire in the middle of the night, and if the inhabitants of the same house and the other townsfolk were asleep and did not see the danger, would not the one who first noticed it shout and run along the streets, exclaiming: “Fire! Fire! In that house over there!” Then why should there not be a warning of eternal fire to waken those who are drifting in the sleep of sin in such a way that when they open their eyes they will find themselves burning in the eternal flames of Hell?

St. Anthony Mary Claret
 
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