Fatima: Proof?

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

Actually the Church says we can. This is why it is not part of the Deposit of Faith.

It’s true that the Church can’t use her infallibility to decipher the miracles and it’s messages and source.

But nobody can deny that 70,000 people witnessed a strange event (or, as I call it, a miracle). Not even the church. It is a fact of history, not religion.

Among the 70,000 witnesses of the dancing sun, were the following…

• O Seculo (a pro-government, anti-clerical, Lisbon paper): It was possible to look at the sun without any discomfort. The sun trembled, made sudden incredible movements. The sun “danced”.
• O Dia (another Lisbon daily, edition of 17 October 1917): The rain stopped. The sun was seen to whirl and turn in the circle of broken clouds. A cry went up from every mouth and people feel on their knees on the muddy ground. People wept and prayed with uncovered heads, in the presence of a miracle they had awaited. The seconds seemed like hours, so vivid were they.

The following link shows another newspaper clipping…
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_Miracle_of_Fatima

Do you know of any credible sources that 70,000 did not witness the miracle?

 

[cheddarsox]

It’s true that the Church can’t use her infallibility to decipher the miracles and it’s messages and source.

But nobody can deny that 70,000 people witnessed a strange event (or, as I call it, a miracle). Not even the church. It is a fact of history, not religion.

Among the 70,000 witnesses of the dancing sun, were the following…

• O Seculo (a pro-government, anti-clerical, Lisbon paper): It was possible to look at the sun without any discomfort. The sun trembled, made sudden incredible movements. The sun “danced”.
• O Dia (another Lisbon daily, edition of 17 October 1917): The rain stopped. The sun was seen to whirl and turn in the circle of broken clouds. A cry went up from every mouth and people feel on their knees on the muddy ground. People wept and prayed with uncovered heads, in the presence of a miracle they had awaited. The seconds seemed like hours, so vivid were they.

The following link shows another newspaper clipping…
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_Miracle_of_Fatima

Do you know of any credible sources that 70,000 did not witness the miracle?

And what happened next? They saw the miracle, they were astounded, it increased faith? It provided grace? Orphanages were founded? Hospitals? The poor were fed?

When I was a young Catholic, women from the Blue Army used to come round, teach us to make rosaries and tell us about the miraculous medal and how we should enroll and have our names buried at Fatima.

Many graces would come from Mary to us.

Statues of the Virgin as she appeared at Fatima came round on a flatbed truck. People came and cried and threw flowers at her feet.

But sadly, I felt no grace, nor saw any lives changed, nor more good will or hospitality nor almsgiving.

I too watched for a miracle, prayed for a miracle.

I know I cannot read other’s souls.

I’m still waiting.

My name is buried at Fatima.

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

It increased my faith.

Why are you so sad?

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

%between%
Do you know of any credible sources that 70,000 did not witness the miracle?

Eyewitness testimony is one of the weakest forms of evidence.

Again, I am not saying that Fatima did not happen.

There are many explanations that an unbeliever can come up with. Just because you disagree with them and are a believer does not make your case any stronger than theirs.

The question here is should an apparition, such as Fatima, be used in discussions with atheists. The answer is a No.

Belief in apparitions requires Faith which is a Gift of God that we cooperate with. If one lacks Faith then an appeal to an apparition will not work. We must work to help such people find the Faith that God is waiting to give them.

 

[Valke2]

Everything has controversy, including the resurrection.

What is unanimous is that everybody was waiting for a miracle, and everybody got it. Everybody… 70,000 of them. You can’t deny that.

How did they know something strange was going to happen that day (13th October 1917)?

really. are there 70,000 affidavits from witnesses? Where did this number come from? And those 70,000 did not witness any appariation of Mary. So what could they testify to, even if believed, that would provide evidence that the Church possesses the full truth?

 

[Valke2]

and what exactly about the miracle at Fatima would be proof that the Catholic Church, rather than any other religion, is the one true faith? Was there a direct statement from the apparition about this?

 

[Valke2]

One of these aspects concerns the three shepherd children who actually saw the Virgin appear. Two of them died only a few years later, but the third seer, Lucia dos Santos, has spent her life as a cloistered nun, and is now over 95 years old. The Church’s treatment of her raises some troubling questions. Sister Lucia is uniquely able to resolve issues that have kept the Fatima controversy boiling for decades — but the Vatican won’t allow her to speak. Why? Why silence the one person who knows the answers to fundamental questions, and is ready, willing and able to give them?
fatima.org/essentials/opposed/cvrupintro.asp

 

[Teeliumtrozzle]

This is a thread about Fatima. As far as I know, there exists no real atheistic explanation of this event.

The miracle of the sun itself is an extraordinary event, but the fact that it coincided with the revelations of the children (who talked about theological and political concepts way beyond what they could know) seem quite literally speaking a good a proof of the supernature and the Catholic Faith as one could ask for.

I plan to use this as a major sword to attack atheism, but I need to know if any plausible ‘debunkings’ exist. I have seen the wikipedia page and I don’t find any of those convincing.

Fatima is proved.The sun couldnt have spun around all by itself.And what about how the children could predict their own deaths?

 

[cheddarsox]

It increased my faith.

Why are you so sad?

I am sad that the miracle seems to be so shallow, something that astounds, yet fails to transform. That, in the name of Mary, women go round and make promises…that are not kept, that unfortunately do more to foster superstition in many of those that hear, rather than a moral life.

I am glad it increased your faith, and hope that much deep good came out of it for all the 70,000 witnesses, and those who shared their lives.

I hope that every person of faith who has had their name buried at Fatima, wears a miraculous medal, and prays the rosary will use the graces promised to them to be a beacon of truth and love in this world.

Fatima didn’t pan out for me, but I have had my own little miracle that has transformed my life. The sun doesn’t dance for me, but it does rise each morning over all of us. That is as sure a sign of Divine Love that I will ever need.

cheddar

live this day as an altar to what you believe

 

[rwoehmke]

To which I would add:

Are there any credible reports of 70,000 people suffering from the exact same delusional fantasy at precisely the same moment and place?

Peace,
Dante

Actually one could hold that the 70,000 witnesses at Fatima did just that. Credible enough a report for you all?

 

[Linda_Marie]

I agree with other posters that neither the Miracle of the Sun at Fatima, nor any miracle for that matter, will convince a committed atheist that God is real. They have closed their minds to the possibility and will always find a way to dismiss it. Mass hallucination, insanity, delusions, you name it, anything that even remotely explains it without the supernatural will be accepted as the explanation.

posted by mschrank

I defy anyone to find a miracle or miraculous event that was a) predicted b) involved people who could of had no way of making it up c) seen by thousands of people d) has eluded any credible materialist explanation (sorry, mass hallucination, sundogs are all weak theories)

For your own information, have you heard of the approved (by both the Coptic Catholic Church and subsequently by the Church in Rome and the Coptic Orthodox Church) Marian apparitions at Zeitun, Egypt from 1968 to 1970? Although there were no seers involved, these apparitions were seen by everyone, photographed and broadcast live on TV. Not just 70,000 but millions of people witnessed the phenomena. Miraculous healings have been reported associated with this site which continue to this day. Local tradition has it that the Zeitun church was built on the site where the Holy Family camped when they were in Egypt. One of the very interesting fruits of this apparition is that Muslims and Christians prayed together at the church. Even the head of the Evangelical Church and Speaker on behalf of all the Protestant Churches in Egypt ‘officially announced the certainty of the appearances of the Blessed Virgin Mary’. The Egyptian government investigated the possibility of fraud and found it to be ‘without foundation’ and they would have had a vested interest in declaring them fraudulent. It was apparently predicted that Mary would return to the site ‘in fifty years’ by the person who had the church built on instructions from Mary which he received in a vision.
You can google it. There are numerous websites.

Even this, however, will not convince an atheist. Just keep praying for their conversion and leave it to God to change their hearts.

 

[dolphinlove]

The only way you can convince an atheist that God exists is have God himself appear to them, nothing you can say or do to them can convince them otherwise, unless they are willing to open their hearts and minds to the situation.
Even then, they would probably ask God for proof!

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

… Eyewitness testimony is one of the weakest forms of evidence…

really. are there 70,000 affidavits from witnesses? Where did this number come from?..

ByzCath, Valke2;

huh???

Are you suggesting that history has failed me? Are you suggesting that 70,000 did not witness the anticipated sign on October 13th, 1917? Are those newspapers articles (quoted above) wrong?

Have you ever done any research into this? Or are you just an automatic sceptic?

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

and what exactly about the miracle at Fatima would be proof that the Catholic Church, rather than any other religion, is the one true faith? Was there a direct statement from the apparition about this?

I don’t think there is any other religion/church who is willing to trust Mary like the Catholics (except maybe Orthodox).

Besides, this is too much for you too handle. You won’t believe that the historical event actually happened, let alone try to decipher what it all means. You need to do some research in history, before you try and decipher any divine messages.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

ByzCath, Valke2;

huh???

Are you suggesting that history has failed me? Are you suggesting that 70,000 did not witness the anticipated sign on October 13th, 1917? Are those newspapers articles (quoted above) wrong?

Have you ever done any research into this? Or are you just an automatic sceptic?

I guess you do not read all my replies.

I suggest you do so then you will find the answer to this question.

 

[mschrank]

I think what ByzCath is doing is he’s just pointing out all the possible defenses against the case of Fatima. He’s not saying he doesn’t believe in it.

Also, people did see different things. Most of them saw the sun miracle. Some people did not see anything, although as far as I know all people experienced the second but lesser known miracle, the rain miracle where everyone’s clothes were instantly dried even though it had been raining all day.

The mass hallucination theory does not hold water, firstly, ‘mass hallucination’ doesn’t actually mean anything, it’s like the word ‘fever’ which really denotes some kind of infection- so that is not an explanation in itself (think about it)- secondly, it was witnessed by people up to 30 miles away who were not expecting the miracle at all.

I don’t think seeing different things is a bad thing, after all we read in the gospels when the Father says, “this is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased” we also read that some people thought it thundered, some people heard a voice, now if it was made up the writer wouldn’t include that because a skeptic can go to town on something like that. So in the miracle at Fatima, we see the same phenomenon.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

I think what ByzCath is doing is he’s just pointing out all the possible defenses against the case of Fatima. He’s not saying he doesn’t believe in it.

Exactly. I have never said whether I believe in it or not, as that does not matter to the discussion and really is no one’s business.

Also, people did see different things. Most of them saw the sun miracle. Some people did not see anything, although as far as I know all people experienced the second but lesser known miracle, the rain miracle where everyone’s clothes were instantly dried even though it had been raining all day.

The mass hallucination theory does not hold water, firstly, ‘mass hallucination’ doesn’t actually mean anything, it’s like the word ‘fever’ which really denotes some kind of infection- so that is not an explanation in itself (think about it)- secondly, it was witnessed by people up to 30 miles away who were not expecting the miracle at all.

I don’t think seeing different things is a bad thing, after all we read in the gospels when the Father says, “this is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased” we also read that some people thought it thundered, some people heard a voice, now if it was made up the writer wouldn’t include that because a skeptic can go to town on something like that. So in the miracle at Fatima, we see the same phenomenon.

Really, people seeing two different things is a problem. If two people standing next to each other and both looking at the sun yet only one of them witnessed the miracle then there is a big issue that would need to be overcome if one wished to used this as proof to a non-believer.

 

[Valke2]

I don’t think there is any other religion/church who is willing to trust Mary like the Catholics (except maybe Orthodox).

Besides, this is too much for you too handle. You won’t believe that the historical event actually happened, let alone try to decipher what it all means. You need to do some research in history, before you try and decipher any divine messages.

I did do some research. This event has its share of skeptics and for good reason. The Church itself has gone from encouraging belief to discouraging belief to encouraging belief in the miracle.

 

[mschrank]

You know Byz, I think that we’re talking about something supernatural here, trying to shoehorn it into the rules of empirical observation is pointless. Difference in observation is not a problem.

It doesn’t matter if only half of the people there saw it, the point is, it breaks the materialist model into a million pieces.

It’s not about God deigning down and condescending to fit the empiricist theory of knowledge, it’s about “God laughing” at the whole faddish model and coming up with something that breaks it. Whatever it is, even if hypothetically it was some “god” of another religion (HYPOTHETICALLY), psychic energy, faries, a big green dragon that lives in the marshmellow kingdom, it breaks the idea that everything is neat and explainable by men wearing white coats and carrying bubbling test tubes.

Sure, you can hang on to dead victorian canards if you PLEASE, but you don’t HAVE TO.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

You know Byz, I think that we’re talking about something supernatural here, trying to shoehorn it into the rules of empirical observation is pointless. Difference in observation is not a problem.

It doesn’t matter if only half of the people there saw it, the point is, it breaks the materialist model into a million pieces.

It’s not about God deigning down and condescending to fit the empiricist theory of knowledge, it’s about “God laughing” at the whole faddish model and coming up with something that breaks it. Whatever it is, even if hypothetically it was some “god” of another religion (HYPOTHETICALLY), psychic energy, faries, a big green dragon that lives in the marshmellow kingdom, it breaks the idea that everything is neat and explainable by men wearing white coats and carrying bubbling test tubes.

Sure, you can hang on to dead victorian canards if you PLEASE, but you don’t HAVE TO.

You are attributing a belief to me now.

I know it is something supernatural that is being discussed here but when one takes this to a non-believer, especially an atheist, then one can not rely on this argument and must understand that they will bring up these exact things that I have.