Fatima, the work of satan?

[myfavoritmartin]

Which seems to have been lost in translation. . .

Your question was “Fatima, the work of satan?”

What are your specific concerns that it may be the work of satan?

1.We have already dealt with the language of “devotion to the Immaculate Heart.”

2.We have already dealt with the importance of testing spirits.

3.What part of the message of the Blessed Mother at Fatima isn’t “holding fast to that which is good?”

It’s just that simple.

I don’t think any have been clearly answered in one post take these points you mention and post the post number you think answers it. I’ll answer what you ask me…
1.
2.
3. No claim that Christ is God in flesh, per the scripture i quoted about testing spirits

1 and 2 are for you.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

What “date and location discrepencies” are you referring to?

According to Ave Marie inst… Mary asked the children to come here being(CovadaIria) for 6 straight months, on the 13th of each at the same hour…
The 4th apparition occurred 8-15-17 in Valinhos (ibid., p33)
Another source made 4 days later the 19th also in Valinhos (Francis Johnson, the Great Sign).
Our Omnipotent and all knowing God boo-booed?
PLEASE!!!

YOU GUYS KNOW ELLEN G. WHITE AND JOSEPH SMITH HAD VISIONS ALSO… Maybe they were real…

 

[Mintaka]

search bookshelves
Dang it, I can’t find my little Fatima book!

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I seem to recall that when the three kids saw their first vision – the angel who later gave them Communion – that the first thing the angel did was quiz them on their catechism answers. Jesus being both God and Man would have been one of the first catechism answers they would have made.

"Pray! Pray very much! The Hearts of Jesus and Mary have merciful designs for you. Offer prayers and sacrifices constantly to the Most High… In every way you can offer sacrifice to God in reparation for the sins by which He is offended, and in supplication for the conversion of sinners… Above all, accept and endure with submission the sufferings which the Lord will send you. Take and drink the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ, horribly outraged by sinful men. Make reparation for their crimes and console your God.”

No point telling them to take Communion if Jesus wasn’t God incarnate. (And if this point isn’t obvious to you, I guarantee it is to a Catholic kid.) But the angel also explicitly bowed down before the Consecrated Host and Chalice and prayed this prayer three times: “Most Holy Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, I adore You profoundly, and I offer You the most precious Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ, present in all tabernacles of the world, in reparation for the outrages, sacrileges and indifference with which He Himself is offended.”

So there you go. Can’t get more explicit than “Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ.”

Mary herself doesn’t have much point appearing if she’s not the human mother of God incarnate. And the climax of the visions at Fatima was Jesus appearing in the form of a child, blessing the world, and accompanied by St. Joseph. Again, absolutely no point if Jesus isn’t God incarnate.

Finally, Lucia as an adult had at least three visions of the child Jesus. Finally, in 1929, she had a vision of the Trinity: the Father and the Spirit hovering above, and Jesus nailed to the cross. Blood was dripping from His face and side, and across the altar under the cross it said “Grace and Mercy”. This again seems rather definite about Jesus as God incarnate.

Btw, there’s a super-cute book on books.google.com about Fatima, made up purely of poems and drawings by Portuguese kids. Enjoy! (From all the blood-dripping going on in the scenes of the angel giving the kids Communion, it would seem that today’s Portuguese kids also understand this connection between incarnation and Communion…)
books.google.com/books?vid=ISBN9728213409&id=Pwr_F-z3CuYC&pg=RA3-PT5&lpg=RA3-PT5&dq=Fatima+lucia&as_brr=1&sig=eTRDi5QfuwGwb8jNta0jxeOEkOE#PPA31,M1

 

[Mintaka]

Actually, the apparition took place on August 13, but the kids weren’t there. If I recall correctly, this was during the period when various anti-Christian adults tried to frustrate the apparitions by locking up the kids elsewhere on the pre-announced day. Some of the village people went down to the Cove anyway, and some saw a cloud of light.

As soon as the kids were released, visions ensued on the 19th even though they weren’t at the Cove. So Mary kept her part of the deal; and it wasn’t the kids’ fault that they weren’t able to make the rendezvous, too. So she made it up to them. You will also notice that after that, the authorities were afraid to interfere. (Not a good idea to play games with God.)

The biggest point is that the three kids weren’t the only people who saw something. On October 13, 1917, everyone within a 40-mile radius of the Cova da Iria saw the dancing sun, at a pre-announced time. Unless the kids were in league with some kind of super-powerful aliens with really good holo-equipment, I find it difficult to say how that could possibly be faked or imagined.

But there’s no requirement that you believe in Fatima or its message. It’s still just a private revelation, even though it’s been approved. Feel free to ignore it if you don’t like it.

 

[LilyM]

According to Ave Marie inst… Mary asked the children to come here being(CovadaIria) for 6 straight months, on the 13th of each at the same hour…
The 4th apparition occurred 8-15-17 in Valinhos (ibid., p33)
Another source made 4 days later the 19th also in Valinhos (Francis Johnson, the Great Sign).
Our Omnipotent and all knowing God boo-booed?
PLEASE!!!

YOU GUYS KNOW ELLEN G. WHITE AND JOSEPH SMITH HAD VISIONS ALSO… Maybe they were real…

And you know what - I’d be willing to make a sizeable bet that they both acknowledged that Christ was God in the flesh too ya know. The more I think about this little test of yours the more I think it really blows as a means of testing spirits. I mean would the devil himself not acknowledge that Christ was God in the flesh???

 

[myfavoritmartin]

search bookshelves
Dang it, I can’t find my little Fatima book!

search engine

I seem to recall that when the three kids saw their first vision – the angel who later gave them Communion – that the first thing the angel did was quiz them on their catechism answers. Jesus being both God and Man would have been one of the first catechism answers they would have made.

"Pray! Pray very much! The Hearts of Jesus and Mary have merciful designs for you. Offer prayers and sacrifices constantly to the Most High… In every way you can offer sacrifice to God in reparation for the sins by which He is offended, and in supplication for the conversion of sinners… Above all, accept and endure with submission the sufferings which the Lord will send you. Take and drink the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ, horribly outraged by sinful men. Make reparation for their crimes and console your God.”

No point telling them to take Communion if Jesus wasn’t God incarnate. (And if this point isn’t obvious to you, I guarantee it is to a Catholic kid.) But the angel also explicitly bowed down before the Consecrated Host and Chalice and prayed this prayer three times: “Most Holy Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, I adore You profoundly, and I offer You the most precious Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ, present in all tabernacles of the world, in reparation for the outrages, sacrileges and indifference with which He Himself is offended.”

So there you go. Can’t get more explicit than “Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ.”

Mary herself doesn’t have much point appearing if she’s not the human mother of God incarnate. And the climax of the visions at Fatima was Jesus appearing in the form of a child, blessing the world, and accompanied by St. Joseph. Again, absolutely no point if Jesus isn’t God incarnate.

Finally, Lucia as an adult had at least three visions of the child Jesus. Finally, in 1929, she had a vision of the Trinity: the Father and the Spirit hovering above, and Jesus nailed to the cross. Blood was dripping from His face and side, and across the altar under the cross it said “Grace and Mercy”. This again seems rather definite about Jesus as God incarnate.

Btw, there’s a super-cute book on books.google.com about Fatima, made up purely of poems and drawings by Portuguese kids. Enjoy! (From all the blood-dripping going on in the scenes of the angel giving the kids Communion, it would seem that today’s Portuguese kids also understand this connection between incarnation and Communion…)
books.google.com/books?vid=ISBN9728213409&id=Pwr_F-z3CuYC&pg=RA3-PT5&lpg=RA3-PT5&dq=Fatima+lucia&as_brr=1&sig=eTRDi5QfuwGwb8jNta0jxeOEkOE#PPA31,M1

People are to taake your word ? and please tell me how there was communion between Mary and those there?

 

[LilyM]

People are to taake your word ? and please tell me how there was communion between Mary and those there?

What do you mean? People are to take the word of the children that they accurately reported what was said to them by the Angel and Mary at Fatima, because they stuck to it during 13 years that they and the apparitions were being investigated!!! They are to take the word of the Bishop and panel of inquiry that did the investigating because they SPENT 13 years investigating it!

Just like we are to take the word of the Gospel writers, and the writers of Acts and the rest of the New Testament, that what they wrote was accurately related. Or the word of a witness in a court that the testimony they give is accurately given.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

The more I think about this little test of yours the more I think it really blows as a means of testing spirits.

It seems sadly that you feel our scriptural instructions, you know the inerrant inspired word of God…blows

1 John 4
Test the Spirits
1Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.
4You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world. 5They are from the world and therefore speak from the viewpoint of the world, and the world listens to them. 6We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit[a] of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

Confession time maybe?

 

[Eireann]

YOU GUYS KNOW ELLEN G. WHITE AND JOSEPH SMITH HAD VISIONS ALSO… Maybe they were real…

Unless your denying what Paul said about those that preach another Gospel, they couldn’t be could they (Ellen & JS), otherwise you’d be contracting your own Bible I assume.

Does Fatima preach another Gospel ?

Do Ellen & Joseph Smith meet the criteria set out by Saint-Paul ?

 

[LilyM]

It seems sadly that you feel our scriptural instructions, you know the inerrant inspired word of God…blows

1 John 4
Test the Spirits
1Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.
4You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world. 5They are from the world and therefore speak from the viewpoint of the world, and the world listens to them. 6We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit[a] of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

Confession time maybe?

Well, again, by your own test the visions of Joseph Smith and Ellen G White, since they both seem to have acknowledged that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh, must be from God. Heck, even the Jewish (definitely not Christian) historian Josephus, and the Quran, acknowledge that Christ has come in the flesh. Are they too from God then? According to your selective scripture reading they are also.

Scripture never blows, and I never said it did. Your reading of it, since you appear not to have the first idea of how to do so in proper context, most certainly does.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Does Fatima preach another Gospel ?

Do Ellen & Joseph Smith meet the criteria set out by Saint-Paul ?

1.) YES
2.) False spirits…

 

[LilyM]

1.) YES
2.) False spirits…

1. What precise false Gospel does Fatima preach?
2. They fit the test of your verse from Paul, what makes you say they’re false spirits?

 

[myfavoritmartin]

You have seen hell where the souls of poor sinners go. In order to save them, God wishes to establish in the world devotion to my Immaculate Heart.** If you do what I tell you, many souls will be saved, there will be peace**

The manner the vision is giving to be saved doesn’t even jive with faith/works doctrines you guys follow… One person can not save another…Period.
This contradicts the saving message of our Lord and Saviour.
That is a false gospel.

 

[Eireann]

One person can not save another…Period.

James 5:16 16 Confess therefore your sins one to another: and pray one for another, that you may be saved. For the continual prayer of a just man availeth much.

Why pray for one another ?

Ok it’s that time here, get you tomorrow. :yawn:

 

[myfavoritmartin]

All the truth can be found in scripture…
2 tim 3:15and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for
salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

A stearn warning
2 Thessalonians 2:9-12

9The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds
of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, 10and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing.
They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.
11For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie
12and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

 

[LilyM]

You have seen hell where the souls of poor sinners go. In order to save them, God wishes to establish in the world devotion to my Immaculate Heart.** If you do what I tell you, many souls will be saved, there will be peace**

The manner the vision is giving to be saved doesn’t even jive with faith/works doctrines you guys follow… One person can not save another…Period.
This contradicts the saving message of our Lord and Saviour.
That is a false gospel.

???

Mary is giving us an aid to salvation. Not a gospel, new, contradictory or otherwise. She’s NOT saying all the other commandments and means to salvation given in the Gospels are unnecessary or to ignore them in the slightest.

This is additional. AND it’s not compulsory - hence it being a PRIVATE revelation. It’s not a command, nothing near. Did she say ‘every Catholic MUST do what I say’??? Not at all. We chose to out of love for her and belief in the message, but it’s not compulsory, nor does it detract from us doing all the things and holding all the beliefs the Gospels require of us.

And no, we don’t believe one person (except Christ) can save another on their own. However GOD (who remember is the one requesting this devotion) can use people to HELP save each other.

The message of Fatima is not in the slightest binding on anyone. The Popes haven’t even, arguably, followed her request (and that’s all it is) about the consecration of Russia.

Secondly she’s not saying anything at all on her own behalf, rather relaying requests and wishes from Jesus and the Father. Surely your own mother can speak on your behalf at times without it being a problem? Especially if after she speaks you yourself appear in order to confirm what she says?

 

[Mintaka]

Welcome to the passive voice. “Many souls will be saved.” It doesn’t say, “Lucia, you’re going to save a lot of souls.” (And even if it did, Lucia would never think Lucia was saving the souls, or Mary, or anyone else but Jesus. Duh.)

Paul says he’s joining his sufferings to Christ’s. Why? To make up what was lacking? What could that mean?

It means that Jesus desires us to work with Him, as part of His own Body, to save souls. It’s not us that does it; it’s Him. We are simply obedient cells of Christ’s Body, helping matters along instead of fighting Him or doing nothing. But He wants us to do that tiny little bit. He wants us to act in His image and likeness. He wants us to put on Christ and get moving.

Fatima was not the first time we’ve been told this. It said nothing new, nothing against the scriptures or the tradition handed down from Our Lord. It was a reminder, that’s all, a wakeup call that we haven’t been doing what we know we should. And that’s all any true apparition or vision ever is.

'S boring, really.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

James 5:16 Confess therefore your sins one to another: and pray one for another, that you may be saved. For the continual prayer of a just man availeth much.

Why pray for one another ?

Ok it’s that time here, get you tomorrow. :yawn:

Eireann,
That is praying for each other that you might be saved not to save. Big difference their, think about it I can explain further but I don’t think its necessary, is it?

 

[LilyM]

Eireann,
That is praying for each other that you might be saved not to save. Big difference their, think about it I can explain further but I don’t think its necessary, is it?

There’s no meaningful difference between those words of the Scripture and the words Mary uses at Fatima.

 

[Eireann]

Eireann,
That is praying for each other that you might be saved not to save. Big difference their, think about it I can explain further but I don’t think its necessary, is it?

Twisting the words again. goodnight.