Fatima, the work of satan?

[myfavoritmartin]

WASPISH?

Waspish=having an irritable and unpleasant disposition

Sounds like me!

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Great! Then, we can move on. . .

I had asked the same question twice now. Thrice is nice.

If you now admit that the message of Fatima recognizes Jesus as our Savior, as Scripture prescribes, has your opinion of Fatima changed? And if not, what is your present concern?

Sorry Jane I thought I responded already… gimme a minute to go back through then I will.

 

[TOP]

I don’t question Fatima, I barely think about it, but I do include the “o my Jesus” prayer in the rosary. It’s a good prayer. That about sums it up . OK move on to the next subject. Tim

 

[JonathanKinsman]

WASPISH?

Being a fan of Shakespeare, languages, agriculture and puns, I could not resist the hanging curveball you gave us:

gall: an abnormal swelling of plant tissue, caused by insects, microorganisms or external injury. Also, exasperation or irritation. Also, rancor, bitterness of feeling.

gall wasp: cynapine wasps (females) lays her eggs in the tissue of a tree (usually oak).

WASP: “white angle saxon protestant” Here, the reference is to ‘protestant.’

“fruit inspectors of the vine:” your phrase with the word ‘gall’ and being protestant led me to characterize your response as ‘waspish’ or easily irritated or annoyed, a play on your word ‘gall’ and the phrase of the vine you used.

Gosh! This is like teaching Romeo & Juliet all over again! I went on active duty to get away from students!

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Who? Really, Simon, who has given Mary that which is God’s. The Catholic Church? Or various misguided people? And how does the message of Fatima contribute to these unnamed peoples’ who may be giving Mary that which is God’s?.

The hundreds of thousands whom because of fatima pray the Rosary Jane, as I’ve said to b4 in my opinion the rosary walks teetering on a mighty slippery slope.

In what way have “they” (we still don’t know who “they” are) built Mary up through the visions at FATIMA? No doubt, there are demonic spirits throughout the world who will use whatever resources they have to cause man to abandon Christ, but what is it about FATIMA (which is the topic of this thread) that makes you think it is the work of Satan.

Jane, from every angle it talks consistently more about Mary than the salvific message of Christ.

Satan can twist and manipulate even the word of God in effort to achieve his evil end. No one would doubt that he would do the same with a message of the Blessed Mother, but just as we do not throw out Scripture (which Satan uses to his own devices), we do not throw out the message of Fatima.

Please Jane, you wish to compare Sacred scripture, to the fatima vision.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

Great! Then, we can move on. . .

I had asked the same question twice now. Thrice is nice.

If you now admit that the message of Fatima recognizes Jesus as our Savior, as Scripture prescribes, has your opinion of Fatima changed? And if not, what is your present concern?

And I’d love some interaction with my questions to you in post #729.

This wasn’t directed to me but I had to share what I feel. I just can’t accept it was really Mary, nor that it was from God. Scripture never tells us to obey Mary or that we will see visions of Mary “preaching to the people”. Friends, we have preachers of the Word today. If one will not listen to them, then the Lord will not send visions of Mary to convince them. This is just my belief though. I could be wrong…but I could be right.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

So, are you asserting that the Mary of Fatima, Our Lady of the Rosary, in her message to the children at Fatima to sacrifice to Christ, reflect upon the Life, Death and Resurrection of her Son, and to pray for the salvation of sinners through Christ is somehow contributing to this “burying” of “the true Mary”?

Jane, it took 650 posts before you out of the massive numbers of people posting finally found a reference directly to Christ and that was in the angelic appearance, I wouldn’t say her message was as you’ve stated above.

The message was not just praying for the salvation. It was to save souls…

 

[Eireann]

The hundreds of thousands whom because of fatima pray the Rosary Jane, as I’ve said to b4 in my opinion the rosary walks teetering on a mighty slippery slope.

Would it be ok with you to pray the Rosary and leave out the “Hail Holy Queen” the “Hail Mary” ?

Would you still have a problem with the prayers below ?

**
Sign Of The Cross

In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Amen.

The Apostles Creed

I believe in God, the Father Almighty, Creator of Heaven and earth; and in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord; who was conceived by the Holy Spirit. born of the Virgin Mary,He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died and was buried. He descended into hell; the third day He rose again from the dead; he ascended into Heaven sits at the right hand of God, the Father almighty; from there he will come to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Holy Catholic Church, the Communion of Saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting, Amen.

Our Father

Our Father, who art in Heaven; hallowed by Thy name; Thy kingdom come; Thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven. Give us this day our daily bread; and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us, and lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil. Amen

Glory Be

Glory be to the Father, to the Son and to the Holy Spirit. As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end, Amen.

O My Jesus

O my Jesus, forgive us our sins, save us from the fires of hell, and lead all souls to Heaven, especially those in most need of your Mercy. Amen. **

Oh sorry about the Apostles Creed mentioning Mary, someone must have slipped up here.

So now Simon is that ok to pray ?

 

[Eireann]

Jane, it took 650 posts before you out of the massive numbers of people posting finally found a reference directly to Christ and that was in the angelic appearance, I wouldn’t say her message was as you’ve stated above.

You **didn’t do your own homework **Simon otherwise we wouldn’t have had to point it out to you.

I’ve read about Fatima more than 20 years ago, have a couple of books on the subject as-well.

And as someone on another thread said, the message of Fatima is repentance, no different than when Jesus said “repent and believe in the Gospel”, when He started His mission.

The message of Jesus is still the same, and the Fatima message points to it, repent, repent, repent.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

So now Simon is that ok to pray ?

A lot of the prayer of the rosary is scriptural, yet the second half of the “Hail Mary” and portions of the “Hail, Holy Queen” are very unbiblical. I know the first part of the Hail Mary is a quote of Luke 1:28. But is there any scriptural reasoning
for addressing her as “holy” Mary, or calling her “our life” and “our hope.”

 

[Philthy]

A lot of the prayer of the rosary is scriptural, yet the second half of the “Hail Mary” and portions of the “Hail, Holy Queen” are very unbiblical. I know the first part of the Hail Mary is a quote of Luke 1:28. But is there any scriptural reasoning
for addressing her as “holy” Mary, or calling her “our life” and “our hope.”

I dont know if it helps, but I always thought of the Hail Holy Queen in these terms.
Hail holy queen: in the Davidic Kingdom the mother of the King is the queen. Jesus is the King therefore Mary is the queen - not too difficult really.
As for the Mother of mercy, our life our sweetness and our hope…I think of it in those terms. Mary is the mother of :
Mercy - Jesus
Our Life - which is in Jesus
Our Sweetness - which is Jesus
Our Hope - which is in Jesus
It doesnt really make much sense to me to think of it any other way…

 

[Philthy]

Where is that from?

It’s from the footnotes of your original link. Sorry I didnt include it - I had assumed you had read the link that you chose to share.

 

[Eireann]

A lot of the prayer of the rosary is scriptural, yet the second half of the “Hail Mary” and portions of the “Hail, Holy Queen” are very unbiblical. I know the first part of the Hail Mary is a quote of Luke 1:28. But is there any scriptural reasoning
for addressing her as “holy” Mary, or calling her “our life” and “our hope.”

Ecclesiasticus 26:24 As everlasting foundations upon a solid rock, so the commandments of God In the heart of a **holy woman. **

Anyway it is an honorary prayer, and as we call Mary our mother, then we give her honour, just like Jesus.

It isn’t clear if it is attributed to St Bernard.

CCC 2677 Holy Mary, Mother of God: With Elizabeth we marvel, “And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?” Because she gives us Jesus, her son, Mary is Mother of God and our mother; we can entrust all our cares and petitions to her: she prays for us as she prayed for herself: “Let it be to me according to your word.” By entrusting ourselves to her prayer, we abandon ourselves to the will of God together with her: “Thy will be done.”

Pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death: By asking Mary to pray for us, we acknowledge ourselves to be poor sinners and we address ourselves to the “Mother of Mercy,” the All-Holy One. We give ourselves over to her now, in the Today of our lives. And our trust broadens further, already at the present moment, to surrender “the hour of our death” wholly to her care. May she be there as she was at her son’s death on the cross. May she welcome us as our mother at the hour of our passing to lead us to her son, Jesus, in paradise.

And like Philthy,

Jesus is Divine Mercy,

Mary the mother of Jesus who is Divine Mercy.

And I assume she was/is Holy.

 

[JaneFrances]

Hey Simon, thank you for your attention to my questions. I appreciate your interaction as I do spend time and energy responding to your concerns.

The hundreds of thousands whom because of fatima pray the Rosary Jane, as I’ve said to b4 in my opinion the rosary walks teetering on a mighty slippery slope.

Simon, I will accept your undocumented assumption that “hundreds of thousands” have been prompted to pray the Rosary because of Fatima.

BUT, your assertion was:

Some may have given Mary that which is God’s!

You have not proven or offered any evidence that the “hundreds of thousands”–or even “some” of the “hundreds of thousands” who pray the Rosary give to Mary that which is God’s. This was your assertion.

And please clarify what the “slippery slope” of the Rosary is??? Is a prayer which reflects upon the Life, Death, and Resurrection of our Lord so slippery? Is a prayer that begins with our creedal statement of faith in God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit really a slope that will lead one to fail in faith? Is repeating the prayer our Lord taught us a slippery slope? Is echoing the words of an angel of God and requesting a holy woman’s prayerful intercession a slippery slope? Is identifying that all glory be to our God a slippery slope? Is a prayer recognizing the Blessed Mother in words of love and honor a slippery slope?

Honestly, I can not speak for “hundreds of thousands,” but I have never once stood on the “slippery slope” and fallen. I have never once prayed the Rosary and given to our Blessed Mother the worship and sacrifice I offer to my Creator. I have never once lavished words of beauty upon my Blessed Mother. . .my children. . .my husband. . .or any creature and confused them for my God.

You have no idea what is happening in the hearts of “hundreds of thousands” of people, Simon. You have no idea how the promptings of the Blessed Mother have opened their hearts to the workings of the Holy Spirit. You have no idea how a Mother’s call to repentence and return to the Lord can bring you closer to your Savior than you ever thought possible.

I appreciate that you are uneasy. I understand the deeply felt aversion and the deeply impressed suspicion you have for all that is Catholic. Truly, I do. But, I must point out to you that you have not offered any real evidence that the Rosary OR Fatima is a “slippery slope.”

Jane, from every angle it talks consistently more about Mary than the salvific message of Christ.

You have missed one angle, Simon. The Catholic one. The one with a real and honest devotion to the Blessed Mother. The one that puts her always at the service of our Lord. The angle that sees her and immediately looks to where she is always pointing, her Son.

You see nothing of this angle, Simon, because you are too busy dwelling on how she might be standing in your line of vision or worrying that your neighbor may be too distracted that you are paralized. Move a little. Get a better angle. Then, you will see that her gentle gestures always point to your God.

Please Jane, you wish to compare Sacred scripture, to the fatima vision.

Yes, Simon, I am using Sacred Scripture as a comparison. IF satan can use even the very Word of God and twist it to His own devices, why wouldn’t you expect that he could do at least as much with the message of the Blessed Mother.

I have not equated the message of Fatima to Sacred Scripture. Rather, I have acknowledged the far superior quality of God’s own Word and reasoned that if the evil one can misuse it, he can misuse the words of the Blessed Mother.

 

[JaneFrances]

Jane, it took 650 posts before you out of the massive numbers of people posting finally found a reference directly to Christ and that was in the angelic appearance, I wouldn’t say her message was as you’ve stated above.

I don’t believe I referenced any of the angelic appearance, Simon. Can you please tell me where I did that?

Instead, I believe I referenced the prayer the Blessed Mother taught the children “O, my Jesus. . .”, her instruction to sacrifice for the love of her Son, Jesus, and her self-identification as “Our Lady of the Rosary,” a prayer which is meant (when properly prayed) to reflect on the Life, Death, and Resurrection of our Lord, Jesus Christ.

The message was not just praying for the salvation. It was to save souls…

I’m confused, then. . .I thought praying for salvation of souls MEANT praying to save souls! What is your definition?

 

[myfavoritmartin]

I’m confused, then. . .I thought praying for salvation of souls MEANT praying to save souls! What is your definition?

Yes in prayer…

But once again lets see what FatimaMary states…
You have seen hell where the souls of poor sinners go. To save them, God wishes to establish in the world devotion to my Immaculate Heart. If what I say to you is done, many souls will be saved and there will be peace.
Jane,
What are you guys seeing in this that I am not.
Sentence by sentence breakdown…
You have seen hell where the souls of poor sinners go.
We are all sinners are we going to hell? I know not relevant just wanted to ask…
To save them, God wishes to establish in the world devotion to **my **Immaculate Heart.
This sounds like a salvific command! doesn’t it! and I might add it isn’t even close to the keys I read about for salvation, based on scripture.

If what I say to you is done, **many souls will be saved **and there will be peace.
Rewards?
Man! as I spend more time here It seems more Marianity than Mariology

 

[hoosierdaddy]

Since Mary has turned out to be the topic of the thread I will ask this question.

a) Did God give us Mary to help us to relate better to Jesus?

Or b) did God give us Jesus to help us relate better to God?

 

[JonathanKinsman]

Yes in prayer…

But once again lets see what FatimaMary states…
You have seen hell where the souls of poor sinners go. To save them, God wishes to establish in the world devotion to my Immaculate Heart. If what I say to you is done, many souls will be saved and there will be peace.

Read the Portugeuse, or a better English translation. In the original there is a comma after the first sentence you post:“You have seen hell where poor sinners go.”

The phrase which follows refers to the subject of that clause, the sinners, as in ‘to save them from hell’ not “We’re going to pull those suckers out of the flames and get them into Heaven ASAP.”

By the way, Simon, did you read the link yet?

 

[JonathanKinsman]

A lot of the prayer of the rosary is scriptural, yet the second half of the “Hail Mary” and portions of the “Hail, Holy Queen” are very unbiblical.

I know the first part of the Hail Mary is a quote of Luke 1:28. But is there any scriptural reasoning
for addressing her as “holy” Mary, or calling her “our life” and “our hope.”

Simon, let’s get a few things straight about the Faith you seem to have so many problems and difficulties with: the rosary utilizes the “Hail, Mary” prayer to a GREAT extent.

Look, the “Our Father” is a *liturgical *prayer, because it comes straight from the Bible (like everything in the ordinary of the Mass).

1. The “Hail Mary” is a *devotional *prayer, it evolved like the Rosary from the pious practices of monks, nuns and lay Christians in the early centuries of the Church.

"Hail, Mary, full of grace; the Lord is with thee," is as you noted, taken from St Luke 1:28, although the Church added ‘Mary’ in order to indentify who is being addressed.

"Blessed art thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb," is taken from St Elizabeth’s greeting to Mary at the Visitation (St Luke 1:42). The Church added “Jesus” to this, and judging from archeological evidence (the prayer scratched out on granite in Rome and elsewhere) this seems to have been customary since approximately 600 AD.

"Holy Mary, Mother of God" dates from the Council of Ephesus, 431 AD.

"Pray for us sinners" was heard (it was recorded by witnesses) at the Council from residents of that city who rejoiced at the Council’s decision that Mary was the Mother of God (divine nature of Jesus) and not just the Mother of Christ (human nature of the Messiah).

**“Now and at the hour of our death. Amen.” **Asking for the intercession of those who are holy and have gone before us to Heaven is a usual thing to do in Christian history and belief. Look at Revelation and the bowls of petitions (or prayers) held by the “saints” around the throne. We ask nothing more from our friends and family when we part at holydays ("I’ll be thinking about you! I’ll pray you get that job!) Of course, you know that we Catholics took the Jewish “amen” as a punctuation point to our prayers and our praise of God.

2.** As to calling Mary “Holy.” **Holy days are separate days because that is what the root meaning of the Hebrew/Aramaic word is: “separate from.” Mary is definitely separate from other women: she gave birth to the savior of the world. Your pertubation here is puzzling.

 

[JaneFrances]

Yes in prayer…

But once again lets see what FatimaMary states…
You have seen hell where the souls of poor sinners go. To save them, God wishes to establish in the world devotion to my Immaculate Heart. If what I say to you is done, many souls will be saved and there will be peace.
. . . What are you guys seeing in this that I am not.

Christ magnified.

You have seen hell where the souls of poor sinners go.
We are all sinners are we going to hell? I know not relevant just wanted to ask…

Why? Why if this was irrelevant did you want to ask it? Let’s try to stay on topic. . .700+ posts is a lot to sift through.

In any case, I do not believe it is irrelevant. I believe hell is real. I believe that it is eternal. I believe that Jesus Christ came into this world that we might be saved from the fires of hell through his Life, Death, and Resurrection. And, yes, I believe that only sinners go to hell.

I believe, too, that through our faith and obedience to our Lord, we have the hope of eternal life. Only God knows who is “going to hell.” This, by the way, is the official teaching of the Catholic Church.

To save them, God wishes to establish in the world devotion to **my **Immaculate Heart.
This sounds like a salvific command! doesn’t it! and I might add it isn’t even close to the keys I read about for salvation, based on scripture.

I don’t know what the term “salvific command” means exactly.

I do know that our Lord draws everyone to himself in different ways. I do know that a true devotion to the Immaculate Heart is always predicated by a foundational devotion to the Sacred Heart of Jesus. I do know that if one is devoted to the Blessed Mother, she will always lead them to her Son. And I know that her Son, Jesus Christ our Lord is the Savior of the world.

The Immaculate Heart of Mary only exists because of Jesus. The Immaculate Heart of Mary is evidence par excellence of the perfect saving power of Jesus Christ. And I know that a devotion to the Immaculate Heart is a constant reminder of our Sovereign King’s power to save even the most humble human being just by knowing, loving, and following Him–even unto His Cross.

If what I say to you is done, **many souls will be saved **and there will be peace.
Rewards?

I don’t understand your question: “Rewards?” What do you mean?

But, until you can clarify your question, I will continue to explain this message. . .

Mary is saying: If people acquire a true devotion to the Immaculate Heart, it will surely lead them to Christ. Christ is our Salvation. Christ is our Peace.

Man! as I spend more time here It seems more Marianity than Mariology

This is a subversive term which has no place in this discussion, Simon. No one here has so much as suggested that Mary is God. No one here has asserted that she has any power beyond that which God graciously bestows upon her. We ALL have grace and power to lead others to Christ. No one here has given you any indication that Catholics believe that she is in any way on par with our Savior, Jesus Christ. She is a creature. She is the Mother of God. She is His handmaid. She is His servant. She follows Him. And she leads us to Him always.

If you are not seeing the forest (our Lord) for the trees (Mary), change your position.

Do not be confused.