Fatima visions?

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Wikipedia says about the Fatima visions:
‘Private revelations do not form part of the deposit of faith of the Catholic Church and its members are not bound to believe in any of them. However, as a matter of prudence, assent would normally be expected of a Catholic based on the discernment of the Church and its judgment that an apparition is worthy of belief. After a canonical enquiry the visions of Fatima were officially declared “worthy of belief” in October 1930 by the Bishop of Leiria-Fátima"’ en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Lady_of_F%C3%A1tima#Official_position_of_the_Catholic_Church
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So, yes, I know Wikipedia is not an authoritative source for the Catholic church. 🙂

Assuming this is at all accurate, and you guys can tell me it’s not, what is meant by “worthy of belief”? Can a Catholic in good conscience be very skeptical about all of this and believe that it is possibly not true or inspired by God (or Mary directly)?
 
jasev said:
Wikipedia says about the Fatima visions:

So, yes, I know Wikipedia is not an authoritative source for the Catholic church. 🙂

Assuming this is at all accurate, and you guys can tell me it’s not, what is meant by “worthy of belief”? Can a Catholic in good conscience be very skeptical about all of this and believe that it is possibly not true or inspired by God (or Mary directly)?
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I’ll jump in, though there are people here who know way more about this than I do.

The reality of the Fatima visions appears to be a teaching of the Church’s magisterium. (See this Church document, for example.) The faithful are supposed to accept all the teachings of the magisterium.

The Church realizes that we can’t necessarily force ourselves to believe in or agree with something. But when we don’t believe in or agree with a particular Church teaching, we should not publicize our disbelief or disagreement, and we should pray for understanding so that our minds and wills can be brought into conformity with Church teaching.

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Langdell said:
I’ll jump in, though there are people here who know way more about this than I do.

The reality of the Fatima visions appears to be a teaching of the Church’s magisterium. (See this Church document, for example.) The faithful are supposed to accept all the teachings of the magisterium.

The Church realizes that we can’t necessarily force ourselves to believe in or agree with something. But when we don’t believe in or agree with a particular Church teaching, we should not publicize our disbelief or disagreement, and we should pray for understanding so that our minds and wills can be brought into conformity with Church teaching.

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Actually not. It is not a teaching of the Magisterium…

By nature no private revelation must be believed…(though it you are the seer this can be different…)

So Fatima is NOT a teaching of the Church…it is a private revelation…and does not have to be accepted…

as the document sited states:

"1. The authority of private revelations is essentially different from that of the definitive public Revelation. The latter demands faith; in it in fact God himself speaks to us through human words and the mediation of the living community of the Church. Faith in God and in his word is different from any other human faith, trust or opinion. The certainty that it is God who is speaking gives me the assurance that I am in touch with truth itself. It gives me a certitude which is beyond verification by any human way of knowing. It is the certitude upon which I build my life and to which I entrust myself in dying.
  1. Private revelation is a help to this faith, and shows its credibility precisely by leading me back to the definitive public Revelation. In this regard, Cardinal Prospero Lambertini, the future Pope Benedict XIV, says in his classic treatise, which later became normative for beatifications and canonizations: “An assent of Catholic faith is not due to revelations approved in this way; it is not even possible. These revelations seek rather an assent of human faith in keeping with the requirements of prudence, which puts them before us as probable and credible to piety”. The Flemish theologian E. Dhanis, an eminent scholar in this field, states succinctly that ecclesiastical approval of a private revelation has three elements: the message contains nothing contrary to faith or morals; it is lawful to make it public; and the faithful are authorized to accept it with prudence (E. Dhanis,Sguardo su Fatima e bilancio di una discussione, in La Civiltà Cattolica 104 [1953], II, 392-406, in particular 397). Such a message can be a genuine help in understanding the Gospel and living it better at a particular moment in time; therefore it should not be disregarded. It is a help which is offered, but which one is not obliged to use. "
vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000626_message-fatima_en.html

(I do though accept with human belief)
 
jasev said:
Wikipedia says about the Fatima visions:

So, yes, I know Wikipedia is not an authoritative source for the Catholic church. 🙂

Assuming this is at all accurate, and you guys can tell me it’s not, what is meant by “worthy of belief”? Can a Catholic in good conscience be very skeptical about all of this and believe that it is possibly not true or inspired by God (or Mary directly)?
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Scepticism is fine except that in the case of Fatima about 70,000 eye witnesses observed “The Miracle of the Sun” on 13 October 1917 as predicted by Our Lady to the three children.
Also, explain the total collapse of The Soviet Union in 1989…the total collapse of an empire with little loss of life…explain
PRAY THE DAILY ROSARY FOR PEACE IN THE WORLD
 
Bookcat said:
Actually not. It is not a teaching of the Magisterium…

By nature no private revelation must be believed…(though it you are the seer this can be different…)

So Fatima is NOT a teaching of the Church…it is a private revelation…and does not have to be accepted…

as the document sited states:

"1. The authority of private revelations is essentially different from that of the definitive public Revelation. The latter demands faith; in it in fact God himself speaks to us through human words and the mediation of the living community of the Church. Faith in God and in his word is different from any other human faith, trust or opinion. The certainty that it is God who is speaking gives me the assurance that I am in touch with truth itself. It gives me a certitude which is beyond verification by any human way of knowing. It is the certitude upon which I build my life and to which I entrust myself in dying.
  1. Private revelation is a help to this faith, and shows its credibility precisely by leading me back to the definitive public Revelation. In this regard, Cardinal Prospero Lambertini, the future Pope Benedict XIV, says in his classic treatise, which later became normative for beatifications and canonizations: “An assent of Catholic faith is not due to revelations approved in this way; it is not even possible. These revelations seek rather an assent of human faith in keeping with the requirements of prudence, which puts them before us as probable and credible to piety”. The Flemish theologian E. Dhanis, an eminent scholar in this field, states succinctly that ecclesiastical approval of a private revelation has three elements: the message contains nothing contrary to faith or morals; it is lawful to make it public; and the faithful are authorized to accept it with prudence (E. Dhanis,Sguardo su Fatima e bilancio di una discussione, in La Civiltà Cattolica 104 [1953], II, 392-406, in particular 397). Such a message can be a genuine help in understanding the Gospel and living it better at a particular moment in time; therefore it should not be disregarded. It is a help which is offered, but which one is not obliged to use. "
vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000626_message-fatima_en.html

(I do though accept with human belief)
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Thanks, Bookcat. I stand corrected.

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sinnegam said:
Scepticism is fine except that in the case of Fatima about 70,000 eye witnesses observed “The Miracle of the Sun” on 13 October 1917 as predicted by Our Lady to the three children.
Also, explain the total collapse of The Soviet Union in 1989…the total collapse of an empire with little loss of life…explain
PRAY THE DAILY ROSARY FOR PEACE IN THE WORLD
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What about this one?

heroldsbach-pilgerverein.de/htm/en/history.html

It wasn’t Catholic, but basically the same thing happened. What makes fatima more valid? The fact that it was Catholic? You should try to stare at the sun for a minute or two and see if it dances or changes weird colors.

Seriously, I have a miracle for you: tomorrow, whenever you go outside and stare at the sun for an extended period of time, you will experience the same things that the people at fatima (as well as heroldsbach) experienced.
 
hellopeople said:
You should try to stare at the sun for a minute or two and see if it dances or changes weird colors.

Seriously, I have a miracle for you: tomorrow, whenever you go outside and stare at the sun for an extended period of time, you will experience the same things that the people at fatima (as well as heroldsbach) experienced.
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No do not…
harmful.

as for Fatima…remember it was not just some colors…etc…it came speeding to the earth…etc and dried up all the effects of the rain…
 
There is a book called Meet the Witness (AMI International Press, Fatima, 1961), where there are eyewitness accounts from people at the Fatima Visions.

What fascinates me about Fatima, is how many atheists / communists became believers. :cool:
 
sinnegam said:
Scepticism is fine except that in the case of Fatima about 70,000 eye witnesses observed “The Miracle of the Sun” on 13 October 1917 as predicted by Our Lady to the three children.
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Actually, Auguste Meessen of the Institute of Physics, Catholic University of Leuven gave a paper entitled ‘Apparitions and Miracles of the Sun’ at the International Forum in Porto “Science, Religion and Conscience” (October 23-25, 2003) arguing that
An extensive study of these phenomena reveals a set of characteristic features, suggesting the existence of an underlying mechanism. It is shown that the hypothesis of an extraterrestrial intervention is not sufficient to explain all observed facts, while this is possible in terms of natural, but very peculiar physiological processes.
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His whole paper is available at meessen.net/AMeessen/MirSun.pdf.

I would second someone above’s caution that one oughtn’t to stare at the sun. To do so can cause lasting damage up to and including blindness.
 
ThomasToo said:
Actually, Auguste Meessen of the Institute of Physics, Catholic University of Leuven gave a paper entitled ‘Apparitions and Miracles of the Sun’ at the International Forum in Porto “Science, Religion and Conscience” (October 23-25, 2003) arguing that

His whole paper is available at meessen.net/AMeessen/MirSun.pdf.

I would second someone above’s caution that one oughtn’t to stare at the sun. To do so can cause lasting damage up to and including blindness.
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lol, I wasn’t expecting anyone to take my “stare at the sun” challenge literally. But that is what these people did, and you can be sure that if you stare at the sun you will likely see the same thing.
 
hellopeople said:
lol, I wasn’t expecting anyone to take my “stare at the sun” challenge literally. But that is what these people did, and you can be sure that if you stare at the sun you will likely see the same thing.
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no actually not.

nor will your wet clothes…and all the rain soaked things dry up…
 
hellopeople said:
lol, I wasn’t expecting anyone to take my “stare at the sun” challenge literally. But that is what these people did, and you can be sure that if you stare at the sun you will likely see the same thing.
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I think you’re discounting the collective part of the experience. If I were to stand by myself in a field and go blind staring at the sun I very well may see nothing more than colors and the like. If I were to accompany tens of thousands of others in a field with the expectation that a given vision would appear to us then it’s not entirely unlikely we’d see just that. Collective effervescence is a powerful thing.
 
jasev said:
what is meant by “worthy of belief”?
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An apparition can be deemed worthy or belief by a local bishop, or canonical inquiry. The only required beliefs for Roman Catholics is found in the deposit of faith, handed on from the apostles. Although ten of the Marian apparitions throughout history have been found worthy of belief, there is no requirement to do so. Public revelation ended with that of Jesus Christ; “no new public revelation is to be expected before the glorious manifestation of our Lord” (Dei Verbum 4). That does not mean that all private revelations are to remain private. Bernadette shared her experience as requested and had a shrine built at the grotto. Joan of Arc shared her revelation and changed the course of history.
 
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