Fatima / Zeitoun / Lourdes / Calanda minimal facts arguments?

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Has anyone attempted to create a minimal facts argument like the one used for the Resurrection in order to prove that Miguel Pellicer miraculously regrew his leg in the Miracle of Calanda, or that the Marian apparitions at Fatima, Zeitoun, and Lourdes happened and prove the truth of Christianity?
 
No, because private revelations like Fatima, Zeitoun etc are not required beliefs for Catholics and therefore the Church is not relying on them to “prove” anything.
 
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OK, I think I see what you mean. So only miracles that are themselves part of dogma can be used for arguments against atheists or other religions?

I ask because if the Fatima miracle (for example) can be demonstrated historically, atheism would seem to be pretty clearly incorrect.
 
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It’s really not a good idea to use arguments that are not based on official Church teaching. It muddies the waters as to what Catholics are required to believe, vs. what Catholics might be permitted by the Church to believe but is not required.

Apparitions and “Miracles” outside of Scripture are not required beliefs for Catholics, so if you try to convince someone using them, then other good Catholics could easily tell the person that these miracles and such are a load of hooey. There are many Catholics right on this forum who are good Catholics but do not believe in the Marian apparitions and think they are overpromoted by the Church.
 
How is it a private revelation if the apparition said it’s message was for everyone?
 
CCC 67 of the Catechism defines the term “private revelation” in a different manner than you are interpreting it. A “private revelation” means one that is not part of the Church’s deposit of faith. It doesn’t mean the public might not hear about it, see it, want to follow it, etc. The relevant CCC section is as follows:
67 Throughout the ages, there have been so-called “private” revelations, some of which have been recognized by the authority of the Church. They do not belong, however, to the deposit of faith. It is not their role to improve or complete Christ’s definitive Revelation, but to help live more fully by it in a certain period of history. Guided by the Magisterium of the Church, the sensus fidelium knows how to discern and welcome in these revelations whatever constitutes an authentic call of Christ or his saints to the Church.
Christian faith cannot accept “revelations” that claim to surpass or correct the Revelation of which Christ is the fulfillment, as is the case in certain non-Christian religions and also in certain recent sects which base themselves on such “revelations”.
 
I know what you mean, I like to point to miracles as evidence of God (as if the whole universe isn’t enough).

but these things are a little different from the Resurrection. not everything fits the bare facts argument. if it did, then it could not really be used well.
 
You miss my meaning. Why is it delivered to the individual even in the presence of others if the apparition itself says the vision is for all to believe?
 
Ah, OK. Thanks. That makes sense.

In that case, I wonder whether these kinds of miracles can be used defensively. In other words, they’d only used to show that miracle claims from other belief systems are less impressive than their advocates claim.

For example, many false religions rely upon healing miracles. Although a Christian might want to stick with the Resurrection for his own positive case, it would seem legitimate to reply to alleged healing miracles from another religion by saying something like, “Your healing miracles aren’t that impressive or unique, though. There’s a well-attested account of a Catholic miracle where somebody literally regrew a leg.”

Or, to use another example, lots of religions claim visions. Once again, I wonder whether a Christian could reply with something like, “Yes, but your visions aren’t unique either. Fifty thousand people saw the sun dancing at Fatima, and there’s a ton of documented evidence for it. So let’s get back to unique claims, like the Resurrection, which involved a clear suspension of the laws of nature…”

One odd area where this kind of defensive use of Catholic miracles pops up is atheist vs. Orthodox Jewish debates. When Orthodox Jewish apologists argue that God appeared at Sinai, the atheists have replied by citing Fatima. It’s interesting to read these debates from the outside, because a Catholic would presumably be free to respond, “Yes, and?”
 
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I really think the whole idea of trying to “prove” that our faith is the Truth or that our God is the real God or “our God’s better than your God” etc. is a giant dead end.

Faith isn’t science. You are going to get so far with your proof and then hit a wall where the only way forward is you either have faith or you don’t. Faith is a gift from God. It requires acceptance that there is stuff in the Universe that operates on levels beyond our human logic to comprehend.

Perhaps someone else with a more logical mindset can craft a better response to you. I realize that my own mindset is not exactly the stuff of Aquinas, then again I never claimed to be or wanted to be Aquinas. I am just a bear.
 
@setarcos

It’s not making sense for you because you’re refusing to see the Catholic distinction between private and public revelation.
 
Refusing to see? I understand the distinction. My question goes beyond the Catholic distinction to the message itself. Why give the revelation to an individual as a “middle man” when the apparition itself says the message was for all to see so that they may believe? This meathod seems to sabotage its own purpose.
 
When the rich man wanted to either go himself or have someone sent back to warn his family about the reality of Hell, what was the answer?
 
The miracles that are documented as part of a Canonization or Beatification are official.
The required belief in the case of a beatification or canonization is that we accept and recognize the Church’s overall decision on the beatification or canonization. The miracle or miracles documented are not considered by the Church in a vacuum, rather they form part of the evidence which the Church considers in making an overall decision. I realize this sounds like a bit of a fine point, but I think it’s a qualitative difference, especially since the Church has chosen to fast-track some canonizations by waiving a miracle requirement, and other saints which were historically venerated were accepted without the evidence of a specific miracle, plus the process has varied over the centuries. We are asked to believe that the canonized person is a saint in Heaven as determined by the Vatican by whatever process the Vatican thought proper to use.
 
Right. When there are documented miracles in these cases, we are not at liberty to dismiss them (you are not suggesting that, just throwing that out there for someone who may not grasp.)
 
When there are documented miracles in these cases, we are not at liberty to dismiss them (you are not suggesting that, just throwing that out there for someone who may not grasp.)
This is correct. The picky point as I see it is that since the miracles in question are generally medical miracles, there’s some possibility that a cure which was considered “miraculous” in 1950 might suddenly have a possible medical explanation in 2050 when science has advanced. This issue has already come up with respect to some of the historic “miracle” cures at Lourdes.

However, in view of the Vatican’s decision to grant canonization, we are not at liberty to reject the decision that Saint So-and-so is truly an exemplary holy person and in heaven, even if one of his two “miracles” (which we usually don’t get the full medical dossier about for our own review, in any event, especially in this age of medical privacy law) might later be thought to have some possible medical explanation that science didn’t think to consider at the time of canonization. The Vatican is not likely to reopen the investigation and reconsider his sainthood either. So, we accept his sainthood, including the Vatican’s decision on the miracle evidence, and we move on.
 
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