Fatima

[fatimaoligist]

I know Athiest and Evolution threads are a no go area, but it has been pussling to me how athiests always cite there is no evidence for the existence god, but any evidence they are presented with, they dismiss it, you can’t use the scientific method to prove god but the happenings at Fatima is stong evidence for god.

the miracle of the sun witness by 70,000 people prophesying four month in advance!

The children prophesying their own deaths!

the sophistication of the story, impossiblefor for unsophisticated children to make up!

You won’t find fossils of god in a musuem along side Allosaurus and Trex, thats just not going to happen but you can’t dismiss, out of hand strong miracles like Fatima, which defie all rational explanations…

 

[Fragile]

I pay little to no attention to Fatima, or any private revelations for that matter.

 

[robwar]

I know Athiest and Evolution threads are a no go area, but it has been pussling to me how athiests always cite there is no evidence for the existence god, but any evidence they are presented with, they dismiss it, you can’t use the scientific method to prove god but the happenings at Fatima is stong evidence for god.

the miracle of the sun witness by 70,000 people prophesying four month in advance!

The children prophesying their own deaths!

the sophistication of the story, impossiblefor for unsophisticated children to make up!

You won’t find fossils of god in a musuem along side Allosaurus and Trex, thats just not going to happen but you can’t dismiss, out of hand strong miracles like Fatima, which defie all rational explanations…

I think it is hard for those who believe to understand those who don’t. Private revelations are not the best to use when talking with atheists. Pointing out orderliness of creation is probably a better route. “The Heavens declare the Glory of God” Psalm 19,
Always remember to pray that “the eyes of their understanding be open”

 

[chaela_may]

I know Athiest and Evolution threads are a no go area, but it has been pussling to me how athiests always cite there is no evidence for the existence god, but any evidence they are presented with, they dismiss it, you can’t use the scientific method to prove god but the happenings at Fatima is stong evidence for god.

the miracle of the sun witness by 70,000 people prophesying four month in advance!

The children prophesying their own deaths!

the sophistication of the story, impossiblefor for unsophisticated children to make up!

You won’t find fossils of god in a musuem along side Allosaurus and Trex, thats just not going to happen but you can’t dismiss, out of hand strong miracles like Fatima, which defie all rational explanations…

i always caution, in those kinds of arguments, that the scientific evidence for the catholic faith is a negative approval on both sides: the scientific method depends on empiricism (so it can only investigate things that happen regularly and with some predictability) and the catholic church never - even in the case of fatima - comes out and says that something is a miracle if it happened after biblical times because she has everything to lose and nothing to gain (at most, an event such as this is declared worthy of belief, which means that you can believe in it if you want to because they haven’t been able to disprove it but belief is not required of any of the faithful). because of this, the furthest you’re going to get is a stalemate and even that will depend on the propensity and frequency of the evidence that you provide. fatima is very impressive, but throw in lots of miracles, one on top of the other (and across, such as the blood from lanciano matching the blood of the shroud of turin), and you’ll make any atheist very uneasy, especially if you impress on them that the church is more critical of miracles than any scientist would be since she has so much to lose and gains no new revelation or authority with any miracle. just look at how long it took the church’s bishops to get together to bless russia as our lady required, even though, as you state, fatima is nigh irrefutable.

the bigger point to remember, though, is that faith is one of the theological virtues. it isn’t something that you can get on your own. you have to accept it as a gift from God. if an atheist refuses to do so, then all the evidence in the world will fall on deaf ears.

 

[Aelred_Minor]

You can’t prove God scientifically from isolated incidents like Fatima.

One thing that one could do is appeal to the common sense by which most people accept events just as transient, and often witnessed by still fewer people. For example if fifty people at a town hall meeting allege that a man became belligerent at the meeting and made threats against someone, no one is likely to seriously doubt their testimony even if the meeting was not filmed and there is no scientific evidence to support the allegation after the fact. In the same way, what other than unscientific prejudices is there to disqualify testimony of signs and miracles like those at Fatima?

 

[Aelred_Minor]

just look at how long it took the church’s bishops to get together to bless russia as our lady required, even though, as you state, fatima is nigh irrefutable.

I believe it was mainly political and ecumenical concerns that delayed the consecration of Russia, and which also caused the consecration to happen in a somewhat veiled way.

 

[Giants]

I know Athiest and Evolution threads are a no go area, but it has been pussling to me how athiests always cite there is no evidence for the existence god, but any evidence they are presented with, they dismiss it, you can’t use the scientific method to prove god but the happenings at Fatima is stong evidence for god.

the miracle of the sun witness by 70,000 people prophesying four month in advance!

The children prophesying their own deaths!

the sophistication of the story, impossiblefor for unsophisticated children to make up!

You won’t find fossils of god in a musuem along side Allosaurus and Trex, thats just not going to happen but you can’t dismiss, out of hand strong miracles like Fatima, which defie all rational explanations…

Fatima has been debated, and re-debated (and further re-debated) many times on these boards. Nothing about it defies rational explanation. Rather, it is a textbook illustration of confirmation bias, both at the time, and in the century since it happened.

 

[Aelred_Minor]

Fatima has been debated, and re-debated (and further re-debated) many times on these boards. Nothing about it defies rational explanation. Rather, it is a textbook illustration of confirmation bias, both at the time, and in the century since it happened.

I’m sure that what happened does not defy rational explanation. However I would insist that it being a miraculous event would be one such rational explanation.

 

[Giants]

I’m sure that what happened does not defy rational explanation. However I would insist that it being a miraculous event would be one such rational explanation.

By definition, a miracle entails the suspension of the laws of nature. I don’t think explaining the events of Fatima as a miracle is a rational explanation.

 

[Aelred_Minor]

By definition, a miracle entails the suspension of the laws of nature. I don’t think explaining the events of Fatima as a miracle is a rational explanation.

Even working with this definition, what is irrational about a temporary suspension of the laws of nature?

 

[Giants]

Even working with this definition, what is irrational about a temporary suspension of the laws of nature?

The fact that it can’t happen.

If the Sun actually did swoop down from the sky and return to its previous placement without any noticeable (or negative) effect, this would not be a suspension of the laws of nature, but an exercise of other laws of nature. This new exercise may not easily explained, but not having an answer to a mystery does not mean there is no answer to be had.

That someone has sufficient imagination to conjure a story about an naturally unexplainable event does not, ipso facto, make a supernatural explanation rational.

 

[PennyinCanada]

When I read the events of Fatima for the first time, I was an adult. I thought it was the most amazing, wonderful, tell the whole world event! God is in our midst, and cares about us. Is there anything after the parting of the Red Sea that is as spectacular? The sun dancing in the sky? How anyone could read the story and not have joy that God is here with us, baffles me. Wow. It should bring tears to one’s eyes. It happened in time so close to us, not a thousand years ago.

I remember a family member telling me “Show me one thing that God has done that’s big like the Red Sea”. The 10 Commandments was on TV. I told him about the sun dancing at Fatima, briefly. You would have thought he needed a root canal from his expression. I can’t comprehend it.

 

[Fragile]

When I read the events of Fatima for the first time, I was an adult. I thought it was the most amazing, wonderful, tell the whole world event! God is in our midst, and cares about us. Is there anything after the parting of the Red Sea that is as spectacular? The sun dancing in the sky? How anyone could read the story and not have joy that God is here with us, baffles me. Wow. It should bring tears to one’s eyes. It happened in time so close to us, not a thousand years ago.

I remember a family member telling me “Show me one thing that God has done that’s big like the Red Sea”. The 10 Commandments was on TV. I told him about the sun dancing at Fatima, briefly. You would have thought he needed a root canal from his expression. I can’t comprehend it.

I would contend that the incarnation, death and resurrection of Christ far surpasses the parting of the Red Sea… or a “dancing sun!”

“Immanuel; God w/us!”

 

[Fragile]

equip.org/perspectives/the-lady-of-fatima-has-mary-appeared-in-visions/

 

[chaela_may]

Aelred Minor;9906162:

Giants;9905946:

Aelred Minor;9905914:

I’m sure that what happened does not defy rational explanation. However I would insist that it being a miraculous event would be one such rational explanation.

By definition, a miracle entails the suspension of the laws of nature. I don’t think explaining the events of Fatima as a miracle is a rational explanation.

Even working with this definition, what is irrational about a temporary suspension of the laws of nature?

The fact that it can’t happen.

If the Sun actually did swoop down from the sky and return to its previous placement without any noticeable (or negative) effect, this would not be a suspension of the laws of nature, but an exercise of other laws of nature. This new exercise may not easily explained, but not having an answer to a mystery does not mean there is no answer to be had.

That someone has sufficient imagination to conjure a story about an naturally unexplainable event does not, ipso facto, make a supernatural explanation rational.

if there were a natural explanation, then it is repeatable, at least on a smaller scale. everything in nature can be tested and explored with the scientific method. (heck, even the origin of the universe is being tested on a smaller scale.) events that are supposed miracles can be disproven by science if they were hoaxes or mistakes, but they can’t be proven because any explanation of them would not be verifiable within a combination of logic and empiricism.

that’s why we use the term ‘supernatural’ for everything that can’t be explained by science. they’re things that can’t be understood in the context of anything natural.

that’s also why a supernatural explanation is rational. it might not be something that you agree with, but it is rational. in the case of any purported miracle, there aren’t too many conclusions that you could come to. either you think that it happened as reported or you think that it was an exaggeration or a hoax. if you think that it happened, then the rational explanation is incorporated into the event itself (i.e., it was a miracle). if you think that it was a hoax or exaggeration, then you have pretty big onus to provide a different explanation.

I would contend that the incarnation, death and resurrection of Christ far surpasses the parting of the Red Sea… or a “dancing sun!”

“Immanuel; God w/us!”

that goes without saying! i had already taken that under assumption because i didn’t think that pennyincanada would have intended otherwise. besides, the context was a movie of the ten commandments.

 

[BroomWagon]

equip.org/perspectives/the-lady-of-fatima-has-mary-appeared-in-visions/

Quoting CRI??? Those people are known anti-Catholics.

And really carry less water than the many affirmations of visits by the Holy Mother of God per miracles and conversions.

 

[BroomWagon]

I would contend that the incarnation, death and resurrection of Christ far surpasses the parting of the Red Sea… or a “dancing sun!”

“Immanuel; God w/us!”

If Doctors’ have certified cures at Lourdes France, I don’t think you have any room for jest. Only denying the realities that exist.

miraclehunter.com/marian_apparitions/approved_apparitions/lourdes/miracles1.html

And many more that are not medically certified.

 

[ManRay]

This is a fairly good debunking

skeptoid.com/episodes/4110

 

[BroomWagon]

This is a fairly good debunking

skeptoid.com/episodes/4110

Pretty poor debunking, mass psychology and mass hallucination? Really? On 70,000 people and seen 30 miles away? That article is rather uninformed.

Since the Fátima “Miracle of the Sun” is easily explained, and even falsified by photographic evidence, it’s probably time for the Catholics to reexamine their criteria.

Yet the author’s understanding is clearly superficial.

Great post to find a skeptic view and link to it. And then make the claim it is a good debunking!

 

[fred_conty]

equip.org/perspectives/the-lady-of-fatima-has-mary-appeared-in-visions/

Here is one that you would like.

davidmacd.com/catholic/mary_in_the_bible.htm