Faults in mankind

[Pete_1]

My example of the physical drawbacks from bipedalism is probably part of a larger question that is always churning away in the back of my mind.

Everything I observe in nature; geological formations, plants, animals, weather processes, fossil remains, volcanic activity, astronomical behaviour,everything., seem to form and develop just as you would expect they would if there was no God. So why postulate a deity?

I don’t get it.

What about self-awareness? Emotions? Morality? Abstract concepts?

What about causality, why is there something rather than nothing?

How would you expect things to be if their was a God (in a fallen world)?

 

[redhen]

What about self-awareness? Emotions? Morality? Abstract concepts?

The field of evolutionary psychology explores all these questions. Besides, these have been observed in other species besides homo sapiens.

What about causality, why is there something rather than nothing?

Why is there God rather than nothing? What is nothing? Can you define it? If you can define it’s properties does that make it something?

How would you expect things to be if their was a God (in a fallen world)?

I would expect his crowning achievement to be an elegantly made work of creation, not some maladapted kludge held together with duct tape.

 

[Pete_1]

The field of evolutionary psychology explores all these questions. Besides, these have been observed in other species besides homo sapiens.

How can self-awareness be observed, science cannot even prove that I am self-aware, only I can. Science can only observe effects that seem to hint at self-awareness.

It seems absurd to suggest that when matter is arranged into a certain combination it produces a self-aware, thinking being.

Why is there God rather than nothing? What is nothing? Can you define it? If you can define it’s properties does that make it something?

Nothing has no properties. Not even the property of existence.

I would expect his crowning achievement to be an elegantly made work of creation, not some maladapted kludge held together with duct tape.

The world seems pretty nice to me, aside from human suffering.
What else would you want?

 

[Spirithound]

Everything I observe in nature; geological formations, plants, animals, weather processes, fossil remains, volcanic activity, astronomical behaviour,everything., seem to form and develop just as you would expect they would if there was no God. So why postulate a deity?

According to our Scriptures, we Christians and Jews believe that God has revealed Himself to us. It doesn’t appear to be something that was just made up one day.

I wonder (along with a PP), what state of being would satisfy you, or everyone else who asks this question? If there were no back problems, no arthritis, no birth pains, not even any fallen arches, would you be satisfied with that? Would you then admit that God is “less illogical”, or something like that? Or would you complain that we can’t fly like the birds? Or we don’t have a snazzy monkey tail?

You still haven’t answered my objections to natural selection based on the exact evidence you presented.

 

[redhen]

How can self-awareness be observed, science cannot even prove that I am self-aware, only I can. Science can only observe effects that seem to hint at self-awareness.

well, I’m no evolutionary psychologist but I’m pretty sure I’ve read in various articles and books that they have observed the development of self-awareness of human infants by watching their behaviour in front of a reflective mirror. Same thing with zoologists and other species.

It seems absurd to suggest that when matter is arranged into a certain combination it produces a self-aware, thinking being.

It’s not that unusual, heck even Magpies exhibit self-awareness.
newscientist.com/article/dn14552-mirror-test-shows-magpies-arent-so-birdbrained.html

Nothing has no properties. Not even the property of existence.

Ok, this one will be going nowhere but I am obliged to respond. So why God instead of Nothing (which apparently can’t be described)?

The world seems pretty nice to me, aside from human suffering. What else would you want?

Pretty nice? At this point others would point to the example of the Sphecius speciosus wasp who paralyzes it’s victims so that it’s larva can feast on it’s internal organs while it’s alive. But I prefer the sexual cannibalism of the praying mantis as a good example of this dog eat dog world.

 

[davidv]

well, I’m no evolutionary psychologist but I’m pretty sure I’ve read in various articles and books that they have observed the development of self-awareness of human infants by watching their behaviour in front of a reflective mirror. Same thing with zoologists and other species.

No matter what was, or is observed, it is not the self awareness itself. The only thing conclusive is that human self awareness is accepted as an axiom and we look for signs of this self awareness. We really have no measure of the self awareness itself. Any attempt to attribute an animal’s behavior to self awareness is a pure guess.

It’s not that unusual, heck even Magpies exhibit self-awareness.
newscientist.com/article/dn14552-mirror-test-shows-magpies-arent-so-birdbrained.html

Pure supposition.

Ok, this one will be going nowhere but I am obliged to respond. So why God instead of Nothing (which apparently can’t be described)?

That’s the point - nothing means there are no features to describe.

Pretty nice? At this point others would point to the example of the Sphecius speciosus wasp who paralyzes it’s victims so that it’s larva can feast on it’s internal organs while it’s alive. But I prefer the sexual cannibalism of the praying mantis as a good example of this dog eat dog world.

How does this relate to the topic?

 

[redhen]

How does this relate to the topic?

Pete said the world seemed pretty nice to him, apart from human suffering.

You still haven’t answered my objections to natural selection based on the exact evidence you presented.

Ok some of the ailments on that list could be debated, i.e. arthritis.
However, some of them are directly related to our evolved bipedalism.
I’ll just give one example for now.

Unlike other bipedal vertebrates, e.g. birds, kangaroos, our head is more or less balanced on the spine. The spine has two curves
thoracic and lumbar that keep the trunk (and weight) centered above the pelvis.
------- ok scratch that train of thought…

I’m going to have to do some more reading. It seems I just came to the same conclusion as Stephen Jay Gould, which may not be as sound as I thought.

creationontheweb.com/content/view/1679/

Harvard’s Stephen Jay Gould, who is one of the world’s foremost evolutionists (and a self-confessed atheistic Marxist), has resorted to dysteleological argumentation. Writing a magazine article1 that has subsequently been reprinted in a book,2 he cited Darwin’s opinions on orchids, and then moved on to pandas and their ‘thumbs’. The premises of Gould’s argument can be summarized by quoting him, and adding numbers [in brackets] in order to expeditiously refer to his premises. He asserts the following:4

‘[1] If God had designed a beautiful machine to reflect his wisdom and power, surely he would not have used a collection of parts generally fashioned for other purposes. [2] Orchids were not made by an ideal engineer; [3] they are jury-rigged [4] from a limited set of available components. [Conclusion] Thus, they must have evolved from ordinary flowers.’

I will have to schedule a meeting sometime in the future and discuss this with my physical anthropology professor. This is what started me on this whole train of thought. He started out the first class of the semester talking about how all our common joint, back and ankle pain could be attributed to evolution.

Learned a new word today - Dysteleology;

Dysteleology is also the name given to a line of reasoning within the philosophy of religion, which stands in opposition to the Teleological argument. It claims that the discord, pain and evil in the universe suggests that there is no God or creative force behind it, or that, if there is such a force, it is malevolent rather than benevolent.

• Wiki

Thanks to all who took the time to format replies.

 

[Pete_1]

Pete said the world seemed pretty nice to him, apart from human suffering.

Ok some of the ailments on that list could be debated, i.e. arthritis.
However, some of them are directly related to our evolved bipedalism.
I’ll just give one example for now.

Unlike other bipedal vertebrates, e.g. birds, kangaroos, our head is more or less balanced on the spine. The spine has two curves
thoracic and lumbar that keep the trunk (and weight) centered above the pelvis.
------- ok scratch that train of thought…

I’m going to have to do some more reading. It seems I just came to the same conclusion as Stephen Jay Gould, which may not be as sound as I thought.

creationontheweb.com/content/view/1679/

I will have to schedule a meeting sometime in the future and discuss this with my physical anthropology professor. This is what started me on this whole train of thought. He started out the first class of the semester talking about how all our common joint, back and ankle pain could be attributed to evolution.

Learned a new word today - Dysteleology;

• Wiki

Thanks to all who took the time to format replies.

I can’t answer your question but a thought is if everything worked perfectly could there be any competition?

 

[Thing]

No, I’m not talking about original sin.

I’m interested to know how you would answer the argument that bipedalism is an inefficient form of locomotion and comes with serious drawbacks, thus would hardly seem to be the creation of a supreme, omnipotent deity.

I recall science/medical experts talking about bipedal locomotion, it was, they said, such a complex mechanical proposition that its design borders on the miraculous.
This was long before ID was invented, these guys were into mechanics not religion.

Wether you believe in evolution or not is irrelevant to this argument.

Some of the medical drawbacks of bipedalism include:

Fallen arches
Shin splints
Hernias
Lower back problems
Hemorrhoids
Circulatory problems
Slipped disks
Arthritis

All these ailments can be attributed to our adaptation of bipedalism, a locomotive form that we obviously were not orginally designed for.

Fallen arches…YOU EAT TOO MUCH, LOSE WEIGHT.

Shin splints…YOU WEAR SHOES WITH WORN HEELS, BUY NEW SHOES OR GO BAREFOOT.

Hernias…YOU ARE STUPID, YOU DON’T EXERCISE BUT THINK YOU CAN LIFT WEIGHTS.

Lower back problems…YOU EAT TOO MUCH, YOU ARE STUPID ETC., POSTURE, YOU DON’T STAND UP STRAIGHT AS YOU WERE DESIGNED TO.

Hemorrhoids…YOU ARE STUPID, DON’T SIT ON COLD ROCKS.

Circulatory problems…YOU EAT TOO MUCH, NO EXERCISE.

Slipped disks…YOU ARE STUPID, YOU DON’T EXERCISE AND YET THINK YOU CAN LIFT WEIGHTS.

Arthritis…MY FRIENDS DOG HAS ARTHRITIS.

 

[Marc_Aupiais]

And God coming down as a little carpenter’s Son, and suffering on the cross, well, we understand in that we suffer, the more we suffer, the more we emphasise,

What would the world look like without Reality, it wouldn’t look like anything.

Reality is our medium, it is eternal, unchangeable, it is sentient, because we are sentient, and everything has a cause, except that which is infinite in every way, so, we are caused by reality, and as reality (I don’t menan the universe or a worldview of it) is all there is, he must have all we have- so, the suffering, crucified God makes suffering, crucified creation, sounds like an artist.
c.f. newconscience.googlepages.com
scripturelink.googlepages.com/meernessoftruth

P.s. Red Hen, please change your status, you are listed as Catholic for some reason. If you don’t accept this basic dogma, then you just ain’t Catholic. Christian maybe, but not Catholic.

 

[Spirithound]

I can’t answer your question but a thought is if everything worked perfectly could there be any competition?

Could there even be a perfect human? Not even Mary could fly.

 

[CB_Catholic]

Well, I don’t know for sure the answers to these questions, but it seems to me that the one thing overlooked in this discussion is the human brain, an organ so complex that even the best computers cannot approach the perfection of it’s function, and probably never will.

This brain, with the resulting creativity and intelligence arising from it, is what we have been given to overcome these so-called design faults. So we don’t have an efficient method of locomotion with our bipedal design? We have a brain which allows us to create extremely efficient methods. We can’t fly? We invented airplanes. Pain is a perfect warning system to keep us from injuring ourselves or to let us know something is wrong, the perception of which is located in the brain. Disease occurs, but our brains are what we use to discover cures and relieve suffering. And BTW, toenails and fingernails are not useless–ever lose one? You soon discover their function.

Animals can adapt to their environments only in limited ways, even if some of their senses and appendages may be more highly developed than humans, but they do not have the creative and reasoning ability to change the environments in which they live to meet their needs. Humans do.

It seems to me that having such a brain is far more advantageous than being perfectly efficient in our physical structure, and more reflective of the Image of the One who created us all, rather than mere bodily physical perfection and efficiency. God knew exactly what He was doing when He put this package together.

 

[puzzleannie]

And if you observe even younger human infants you can watch them walk on all four limbs like -]God/-] nature intended.

I have been watching 3 genrations of human infants and most of them crawl on hands and knees, although there have been a few who develop an awkward hands and feet style of locomotion before they learn to walk. I have observed children moving on “monkey bars” and their style of motion is unlike true brachiation of chips, orangs and similar apes who have developed this into an art form.

 

[Marc_Aupiais]

All that said, we must look into a universe made by God crucified.

I see this as vital, that creation, whose empathy he desires, should share in his suffering for its redemption.

We would always be imperfect, and will always be finite, or reliant, how is it we love so much pets, who need us.

God was making a pet, not a wonder robot.

 

[geezerbob]

The premise stated in the original post appears to be false. Animals frequently have arthritis, lower back problems, and most of the other ailments said to be caused in humans by walking erect. That the premise is false doesn’t alter the fact that we are imperfect while on this earth, but should alter the discussion a little.