Fear of Latin?

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Every time we have parts of the Mass sung in Latin (like the Agnus Dei or Sanctus) people seem to just stand there like they all of a sudden went stupid. It is pretty sad, I don’t think they want to participate if it means actually having to put forth any effort. I’m not saying everyone is lazy, but I do think that most folks just aren’t willing to put any beside the 1 hr. of Sunday Mass amount of effort in bringing Latin back to its proper place in the Liturgy of the LATIN Rite.

Furthermore, Latin isn’t that hard-and you don’t have to have much if any working knowledge of the language to say your responses. Your missal (if you have one) has both languages printed in it, so you’re good to go. The hymnal we us (St. Michael) actually has the Pauline Mass in Latin in it (and English, of course) and that is nice.

Quite frankly, this is one of those issues that I think will take an involved top down effort to bring back into the “norm” from where it never should have left.

In that way, it is sort of like the gold (color) dollar coin. I collect coins, and I followed its development and introduction with interest. However, I knew it was going to fail to attain wide general circulation like the Canadian “looney” that it was basically modeled on. Why? The gov’t didn’t phase out the dollar bill. The people “wanted” the dollar bill, so if given the choice they opted for the bill. Never mind that the coin would save quite a bit of money (the dollar bill has about a 1 yr. lifespan while a coin will last 20, 30, 40+++ yrs) and would be handy. The coin would have succeeded if it were “forced”.

Likewise with Latin. The Church wants Latin retained in the Latin Rite liturgy-but the Church has been a little too vague and it has been easy for folks to push for complete vernacularization. I don’t see any reason why people in a 1st world country like ours can’t devote a little more effort in retaining Latin-at least in simple prayers like the Pater Noster or Agnus Dei.
 
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gelsbern:
There are some issues over which I can see dropping and submitting myself to Rome. (married men becoming priests being the main one) but there are other things I could NOT submit to. Altar girls, EMHCs, Lay Ministers, and parish administrators who are not priests just to name a few. **You can’t submit to these things, which are clearly disciplinary issues? As it happens, I’m a little troubled by altar girls, since a lot of vocations come boys having served, I think EMHC’s are over-used, and I don’t know in what context you mean “Lay Ministers”. As for parish administrators, I can think of several priests who are good and holy men, men the hem of whose garment I’m not worthy to grasp, yet who shouldn’t be allowed to balance their own checkbooks let alone a parish budget. Regardless of my views on this, it is my task to submit to the legitimate authority (which was why I took such exception to the individual who is apparently unable to read critically saying that I was defying a pope). So if you believe or suspect that the Church must be submitted to, then she must be submitted to. There’s lots of decisions I might not be thrilled with, but unless I’m allowed a degree of liberty, submit I must. **Most of all through, it is the Liturgy of the Mass which is supposed to be the UNIVERSAL prayer of the church. It has been watered down so much so that all but a couple of references to the sacrifice that it is remain, it has demoted the priest to simply a prayer leader instead of the one offering the sacrifice to God on behalf of the people, and it has opened the door for irreverant innovations that do not belong in the catholic church. **Here I simply disagree. I think there is a noble simplicity and austerity to the Pauline Rite and I love it. I’ve attended a TLM and I do not see it as being any more oblational or sacrificial than the Pauline Rite. I don’t like the abuses that I’ve had to witness, but then I’m inclined to believe that the TLM is just as subject to abuses and it will be, because mankind is silly and sinful. **

Due to my holding to Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi Me, too(the rule of prayer is the rule of belief) if what is prayed in the catholic church today is what is believed, then I really cannot see myself being part of it. See prior paragraph.

Do I think the Novus Ordo is invalid, I don’t know. The church prior to Vatican II would have said no, the church after Vatican II says yes. So for me it comes to a decision, do I go with what was taught for 1,965 years, or go with what has been taught for 41? And despite my desire for a reverent mass, here’s where I part company with “traditionalists” who think that the Mass and Liturgies of the Church fell out of the sky bound in a red sacramentary. The liturgy developed. Also, I note from your link that YOUR Churches rites are derived from several western liturgies, so I’m sure you knew that as well. The Pauline Mass teaches what was taught for 1965 years. One rite promulgated by the legitimate authority is no less holy for having fewer signs of the Cross than another rite. The Pauline Rite confects the Sacrifice because that’s what the Pope(s) said it does.

Now I see many potential changes that may happen coming down the line, and I pray every day for Rome, for the Pope that they will do what is right to restore what the church was prior to Vatican II. That doesn’t mean that they have to discard the new Mass, but they do have to make it clearer in it’s prayers so that it truly reflects what catholics believe. The Mass should show the world what catholics believe If they achieve that, then I’ll follow my dog across the Tiber. It already does show what we truly believe, that the Victim, made present, is offered to the Father for the propitiation of our sins.

Now I hope we can get back to the topic as I don’t want to be caught hijacking my own thread. 🙂
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Also, concerning the validity of the Pauline Mass, we aren’t, as Catholics, allowed to doubt that. And Trent anathematized anyone who said that any of the church’s rites lead to impiety on the part of the faithful.
 
Our parish has started singing the Agnus Dei and Sanctus in Latin. There is a note in the bulletin about where to find it iin the missalette if one is unsure. Seems to be working OK.
 
Our parish has started singing the Agnus Dei and Sanctus in Latin. There is a note in the bulletin about where to find it iin the missalette if one is unsure. Seems to be working OK.
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Good. That is the kind of thing we need to get Latin back into our Mass. We shouldn’t just all of a sudden do everything in Latin, but should ease back into it.
 
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ComradeAndrei:
Every time we have parts of the Mass sung in Latin (like the Agnus Dei or Sanctus) people seem to just stand there like they all of a sudden went stupid. It is pretty sad, I don’t think they want to participate if it means actually having to put forth any effort. I’m not saying everyone is lazy, but I do think that most folks just aren’t willing to put any beside the 1 hr. of Sunday Mass amount of effort in bringing Latin back to its proper place in the Liturgy of the LATIN Rite.

Furthermore, Latin isn’t that hard-and you don’t have to have much if any working knowledge of the language to say your responses. Your missal (if you have one) has both languages printed in it, so you’re good to go. The hymnal we us (St. Michael) actually has the Pauline Mass in Latin in it (and English, of course) and that is nice.

Quite frankly, this is one of those issues that I think will take an involved top down effort to bring back into the “norm” from where it never should have left.

In that way, it is sort of like the gold (color) dollar coin. I collect coins, and I followed its development and introduction with interest. However, I knew it was going to fail to attain wide general circulation like the Canadian “looney” that it was basically modeled on. Why? The gov’t didn’t phase out the dollar bill. The people “wanted” the dollar bill, so if given the choice they opted for the bill. Never mind that the coin would save quite a bit of money (the dollar bill has about a 1 yr. lifespan while a coin will last 20, 30, 40+++ yrs) and would be handy. The coin would have succeeded if it were “forced”.

Likewise with Latin. The Church wants Latin retained in the Latin Rite liturgy-but the Church has been a little too vague and it has been easy for folks to push for complete vernacularization. I don’t see any reason why people in a 1st world country like ours can’t devote a little more effort in retaining Latin-at least in simple prayers like the Pater Noster or Agnus Dei.
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Every Sunday, in Greek, I sing the Kyrie, and in Latin, I sing the Gloria, the Sanctus, the Mysterium Fidei, the Amen (:rolleyes: ), and the Agnus Dei for Mass. It’s really beautiful and everyone should be able to do it. THAT isn’t what I mind, it’s everything else! I want to be able to respond with understanding (and by that I mean not having to translate it in my head, the way I do when someone is speaking to me in Spanish), and pray the Mass with understanding. AND at the TLM I attended, you couldn’t hear what the priest was saying anyway. I’m not throwing that out as a red herring, it’s the literal truth. He may as well have been speaking Sanskrit. And I don’t want to have to follow a book. I don’t have to now, I know where I come in, what I’m supposed to say, I can pray this seamless prayer where I’m not fumbling with a missal (I’ve never used one) or straining to hear. Latin is important, to say otherwise is like saying Greek or Hebrew isn’t important.

And your coin story is apt…I doubt the Pope will force the faithful.
 
The parts of the Mass that we had in English anyway (even in the old Mass) were the epistles and the gospel. No worries there. Saying the Creed in Latin would NOT be any more difficult than saying the Gloria. And the Pater Noster is a piece of cake.

The consecration? Again, “hoc est einim sanctus meum” , if you’ve already mastered “sanctus, sanctus dominus deus sabaoth” is readily understood. As far as worrying about not understanding the rest of the liturgy.

My priest (and I go to the vernacular Mass as Vermont does not offer ANY Latin Mass except at Weston Priory on rare occasions) has been using during the Lenten season NOT the Prayer of the Faithful for Lent 1-IV, nor yet the ordinary ones, but an (approved I’m sure) special one. We don’t have missals. While he is a lovely reverent person quite a few of us with “over 40” ears are NOT getting a lot of the words. But I am not blaming that on “mass in the vernacular”. Your priest who may have rushed or mumbled his Latin did so not BECAUSE it was Latin but because of his personal culpability; and that same priest very likely, on the switch to English, mumbled or rushed English words and phrases as well.

Do NOT worry. You will not cease to “understand” the Mass if any more parts are “Latinized”.

When we made the “switch” back in 1970 we ALL had to fumble around in the book for a while. My mom was younger then than I am now. She grew up knowing AND understanding her Latin responses and the Latin of the priest, and where she came in, etc. Then POOF! she had to change. HER mother and father, born in Germany, not only had to cope with losing THEIR years of Latin knowledge, but they also had to lose their “German/Latin” missals in favor of a book with not just English alone, but not even the English that they had learned in attending the Latin Mass in the U.S.

For some of us, the increase in Latin is bringing us BACK to what we once had. For others, it’s all new. But you know, even the Traditional Latin Mass had changes throughout its history.

I’ll tell you one thing I think we’ll totally agree on–I for one am thrilled that the bad old days of the 70s-80-90s where priests were encouraged to “ad lib” the Mass are fading fast. The funny thing to me is that a lot of people who love the Pauline Mass have actually hardly ever experienced prolonged periods of time where the actual words and rubrics were FOLLOWED CORRECTLY.
 
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gelsbern:
It seems to me, that there are many who fear the latin language. There are some claims that people will not understand or comprehend what is going on. As a person who has attended many latin masses way before studying the language, I know for myself that this was not an issue, however it may be for others.

Latin is considered the language of knowlege. Legal Terms, Scientific terms and other terms of knowledge and education are all in latin and at one tme so was the language of the Western Church.

I bet that many people use latin every day without even realizing it. Simple phrases and words such as, caveat, caveat emptor, carpe diem, ad hoc, alter ego, bona fide, ad hominem, ad nauseum and the list goes on and on.

The word catholic comes from the greek for universal. One thing that was universal within the Church was the language used for the liturgy. That universality is gone, and now when one goes to different parts of the world, or even different parts of the country, they can kind of follow along because there are some things that are recognizable and familiar, but when it was in Latin and it was done the same way everywhere, there was no doubt as to what was going on, but I digress.

I would just like to hear the reasons for opposition to Latin within the Church. Is it fear? Is it that you would feel uncomfortable sitting in a church hearing language you don’t understand (I hope you don’t travel). If you oppose Latin in the liturgy, please explain why.

Thank you,
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Carpe Aptenodytes!
 
A couple people mentioned about not being able to hear the priest during a TLM and I wanted to relate this story from when I attended the Roman Catholic Church.

When I was in the army, I suffered from temporary complete hearing loss due to a simulator mine going off near my ears and I wasn’t wearing my ear plugs (it just wasn’t macho). I still went to Mass for a few Sundays even though I was stone deaf (my hearing did return after about 3 weeks) During those Masses where I couldn’t hear, what I did was to open up my missal and pray the mass with the priest. It was then I realized what I had been missing. The Mass is supposed to be the universal prayer of the church. Which means not only does the priest do his thing up there at the altar, but I am also supposed to be praying the Mass with the priest.

What ultimately lead me to search out the TLM was that with this new mindset, I would get lost because each parish did things a little different, each priest picked different communion prayers from the selection that was there, some places held hands during the our father others didn’t, some kneeled at the holy holy holy (the sanctus as it was known in the vernacular) others didn’t. There was too much variation in what was supposed to be the universal prayer of the church that I began to ask, how universal is this prayer if everyone is doing it differently? So I searched out the TLM and discovered that they the TLM is done the same way every single time, everywhere. To me, that is universal. That is how we are supposed to participate, we are to pray along with the priest, not just sit there and just let the Mass happen.
 
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ComradeAndrei:
Every time we have parts of the Mass sung in Latin (like the Agnus Dei or Sanctus) people seem to just stand there like they all of a sudden went stupid. It is pretty sad, I don’t think they want to participate if it means actually having to put forth any effort. I’m not saying everyone is lazy, but I do think that most folks just aren’t willing to put any beside the 1 hr. of Sunday Mass amount of effort in bringing Latin back to its proper place in the Liturgy of the LATIN Rite.

Furthermore, Latin isn’t that hard-and you don’t have to have much if any working knowledge of the language to say your responses. Your missal (if you have one) has both languages printed in it, so you’re good to go. The hymnal we us (St. Michael) actually has the Pauline Mass in Latin in it (and English, of course) and that is nice.

Quite frankly, this is one of those issues that I think will take an involved top down effort to bring back into the “norm” from where it never should have left.

In that way, it is sort of like the gold (color) dollar coin. I collect coins, and I followed its development and introduction with interest. However, I knew it was going to fail to attain wide general circulation like the Canadian “looney” that it was basically modeled on. Why? The gov’t didn’t phase out the dollar bill. The people “wanted” the dollar bill, so if given the choice they opted for the bill. Never mind that the coin would save quite a bit of money (the dollar bill has about a 1 yr. lifespan while a coin will last 20, 30, 40+++ yrs) and would be handy. The coin would have succeeded if it were “forced”.

Likewise with Latin. The Church wants Latin retained in the Latin Rite liturgy-but the Church has been a little too vague and it has been easy for folks to push for complete vernacularization. I don’t see any reason why people in a 1st world country like ours can’t devote a little more effort in retaining Latin-at least in simple prayers like the Pater Noster or Agnus Dei.
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:amen: Let’s get to Latin class as the Pope has recommended!
 
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gelsbern:
That is how we are supposed to participate, we are to pray along with the priest, not just sit there and just let the Mass happen.
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And those of us who worship in the Pauline Rite DON’T just let the Mass happen. We pray it like the devotees of the TLM pray the TLM. One more unhelpful and inaccurate generalization.
 
Reading this thread, a more or less random thought popped into my head. Specifically, might not the re-introduction of Latin into the Liturgy (that is, the Pauline Mass) be an opportunity for catechesis?

I think most of us would agree that the state of Catholic catechesis isn’t what it should be, and Latin might be an effective tool to rememdy the situation. If people would have to learn Latin responses, priests (and CCD catechists) would then have the opportunity to explain what those responses mean (in English), and could segway into the deeper meanings of the responses and how they reflect Catholic dogma.

Does anybody have any comments on this idea of mine? Might something like this work? I’ll be honest, it is not something I’ve spent a great deal of time thinking about, but it does seem like a unique opportunity to me.

Sorry if I’ve hijacked the thread…if anyone thinks this worthy of discussion I could start a new thread.
Tantum ergo:
I believe our Pope Benedict has said something to the effect that “truth is not voted by the majority”.
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Hey, my “signature” resembles that remark 😃
 
THAT isn’t what I mind, it’s everything else! I want to be able to respond with understanding (and by that I mean not having to translate it in my head, the way I do when someone is speaking to me in Spanish), and pray the Mass with understanding.
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The responses aren’t that hard, and since you don’t have to learn the whole language in order to understand a few words, it is quite easy after you do it a couple times. For instance, “Dominus vobiscum” (the Lord is with you), you respond “Et cum spiritu tuo” (and with your spirit), really simple.
AND at the TLM I attended, you couldn’t hear what the priest was saying anyway. I’m not throwing that out as a red herring, it’s the literal truth. He may as well have been speaking Sanskrit.
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Some of it is not even said out loud. The priest isn’t praying to the people, he’s praying to God. Quite frankly, I prefer how we can hear everything at our Novus Ordo Latin Mass better but it doesn’t bother me one bit in the Tridentine Mass to not be able to hear everything.
And I don’t want to have to follow a book.
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We are all entitled to our opinions, but I’ve found that I pay more attention when I actually read it.
I don’t have to now, I know where I come in, what I’m supposed to say, I can pray this seamless prayer where I’m not fumbling with a missal (I’ve never used one) or straining to hear.
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But that also can breed apathy, just like not being able to hear can. I know that before I started “getting serious” about the Faith I just regurgitated all of our “parts” mechanically, and I don’t doubt that many other “pew warmers” did or do the same thing.

Also, the missal is fairly straight forward, and all those little ribbons help out with the fumbling part.
Latin is important, to say otherwise is like saying Greek or Hebrew isn’t important.
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Totally agree.
And your coin story is apt…I doubt the Pope will force the faithful.
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But that is exactly the problem-what is the point of even saying anything has to be a certain way if you are not going to enforce it? If it is not the use of Latin (which as per VII documents should be retained, even more liberally than just a few prayers), then its Sacred Music and Art, or the rubrics of the GIRM, or altar boys etc. These things all come off as “recommendations” but if we are ever going to get the majority of people to do what they are supposed to do (without just appealing to their good will and cooperation) we might have to tighten up a bit. We also should get rid of any ambiguities, and the whole “since it doesn’t say we can’t, then we will!” nonsense. Someday, the Church might just have to put Her foot down and say “You HAVE to do it this way, end of story.”
I think most of us would agree that the state of Catholic catechesis isn’t what it should be, and Latin might be an effective tool to rememdy the situation. If people would have to learn Latin responses, priests (and CCD catechists) would then have the opportunity to explain what those responses mean (in English), and could segway into the deeper meanings of the responses and how they reflect Catholic dogma.
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That would be a good idea. It would sure beat learning about “life issues”. :rolleyes:
 
No one seems to understand what I mean about language and genuine understanding…or evidently, I’m unable to explain it. I KNOW the basics of the Latin Mass, having read it enough and having had two years of Latin in college (thanks, Comrade, but I didn’t need to be told the “Dominus vobiscum” and “et cum sprito tuo” part), that’s not it.

I teach non-english speakers. At the end of the day, the year, their school career, they may be able to speak and understand English, but they are, more than likely, THINKING and comprehending meaning in their native tongue. They integrate their learning, their life experiences, in their own language, not in English. And that’s how I imagine it’s going to be at Mass in Latin and why I think the vernacular will be retained. I don’t think I really need to worry about it for me, because I don’t think it’s going to be an issue (I don’t think the Pope is going to do away with the vernacular Mass). But part of what wooed me into the Church was the Liturgy (which I could understand because it was in the vernacular).

Comrade, as for the point where the Church puts her foot down, look, I’m not some “let’s see how we can stir the liturgical pot” hippie. If tomorrow, the Church had every priest in the world celebrating ad orientum, with a rail seperating the sanctuary, or any of the other things that some on these forums think are SO essential, I wouldn’t even blink. It’s the Latin thing and not because I’m not going to be able to “follow” it.

This is also it. I’m not posting on this argument about Latin vs. the vernacular, the Pauline Rite vs. the TLM, the SSPX vs. the Church any more. It’s become a real source of grief and I didn’t become a Catholic to be grim and argumentative.
 
The reason that no one is following you is that people went to and understood the that Latin Mass for at least 400 years if not longer prior to Vatican II doing it’s thing. How is it that in the last 40 years people wouldn’t be able to learn the Mass and understand it? Did humans suddenly get stupider in 1965?
 
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gelsbern:
The reason that no one is following you is that people went to and understood the that Latin Mass for at least 400 years if not longer prior to Vatican II doing it’s thing. How is it that in the last 40 years people wouldn’t be able to learn the Mass and understand it? Did humans suddenly get stupider in 1965?
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They didn’t understand the language, for the most part, they followed in a book, which meant they read a translation into the vernacular. It’s different and I cannot explain how adequately. It has to do with language and philology, symbolism, meaning, and deep comprehension. And love, at least for me. I think that the very finest thing to have come out of the Council, even if the Council didn’t intend it, was the expanded use of the vernacular, the Mass in the language of the people. I think it was wonderful. I think it was for the very, very best. I’m not praising the liturgical free for all that also seems to have developed, but I think people are getting ready to toss a beautiful baby with some admittedly rancid bathwater. I’m not the person to explain it, obviously. It’s very visceral for me, ie, it matters too much for me to be polite and courteous. So best I bow out.
 
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