Fear or Love of God

[mcteague]

For a long time I have divided religious people, particularly Christians, into two distinct groups; fear of god people and love of God people. I have never had much respect for fear of God people. After looking around here for a while it seems to me that there is a lot more fear of god in Catholicism than I thought. Or at least there seems to be in a lot of the posts I have read.
I know that there has been a preponderance of it in history. It is even considered a respected quality. “He was a God fearing man”.
This construction seems the farthest thing any actual deity would desire. In fact the God of the God fearing seems closest to a madman than anything else. Perhaps the stern rule enforcer is a suitable image for a child. Yet when our own children grow we expect more of them than obedience. It is only the lowest among us who require the threat of punishment to restrain their savagery. Is this really what people think. Man is a savage beast and God is the rule giver and punisher.
When I say “love of God” I don’t mean some sanctimonious ****. I mean running to something instead of running from something.
Some of the posts I read amaze me. Don’t people know that the point of confession is not to beg for mercy from the pit of hell. As in the confess and you shall be spared way. It is to prepare your soul to commune with God.
I can pardon of this thinking in the young. When they want to know the rules and procedures of life. Everyman at some point has read books on how to conduct themselves, or lists of rules for success. These things are fine and appropriate for the adolescent and young adult. But to think grown people think this way astounds me. And I won’t even start how easily this kind of thinking leads to abuse and manipulation.

I could be wrong about this. It has been a long time since I was a practicing Catholic, and I am not one now. Although I have always remained a man of catholic (emphasis on lower case) tastes and reasoning. But it just seems to me that to many posts I have read here seem only to espouse the vision of the wrathful, vengeful God of the Old Testament. Is that what Catholics are really all about? Fear God and obey the rules. I know that it is not. But why do so many seem to think this way?

 

[JackVk]

I understand your reasoning. It’s easy to misinterpret God as Big Brother instead of a loving Father. A lot of fallen-away Catholics may think this way; I used to.

Think of it this way: It’s not about avoiding hell but rather about finding heaven. I am young, and yes, I do go to confession rather frequently, because I am looking for guidance (plus, I don’t think I’ll be dying anytime soon). I don’t go to my youth group because I’m afraid I’ll go to hell if I don’t. I go because it’s fun and it brings me closer to God.

I see what you mean, but it’s not always about fire and brimstone.

 

[Nec5]

Your problem is dividing God into two parts. It can’t be done. You have to love and fear him. The two go hand in hand. It’s also circular. If you really love him, you won’t do all those sinful things because they aren’t loving things to do. So when you get to that point, the fear should kick in.

The issue with modern Christianity/Catholicisms is that it’s 99% lovey dubby. No consequences. No sin. No big deal. That doesn’t work anymore than the old childlike do this or else approach.

 

[Whitacre_Girl]

After looking around here for a while it seems to me that there is a lot more fear of god in Catholicism than I thought. Or at least there seems to be in a lot of the posts I have read.

It’s really just the posts you’re reading. Most Catholics passionatly love God and are not seeking a legalistic “this for that” relationship with him. I admit these forums seem to take on a legalistic feel, but it’s not typical for most catholics.

 

[Tietjen]

For a long time I have divided religious people, particularly Christians, into two distinct groups; fear of god people and love of God people. I have never had much respect for fear of God people. After looking around here for a while it seems to me that there is a lot more fear of god in Catholicism than I thought. Or at least there seems to be in a lot of the posts I have read.
I know that there has been a preponderance of it in history. It is even considered a respected quality. “He was a God fearing man”.
This construction seems the farthest thing any actual deity would desire. In fact the God of the God fearing seems closest to a madman than anything else. Perhaps the stern rule enforcer is a suitable image for a child. Yet when our own children grow we expect more of them than obedience. It is only the lowest among us who require the threat of punishment to restrain their savagery. Is this really what people think. Man is a savage beast and God is the rule giver and punisher.
When I say “love of God” I don’t mean some sanctimonious ****. I mean running to something instead of running from something.
Some of the posts I read amaze me. Don’t people know that the point of confession is not to beg for mercy from the pit of hell. As in the confess and you shall be spared way. It is to prepare your soul to commune with God.
I can pardon of this thinking in the young. When they want to know the rules and procedures of life. Everyman at some point has read books on how to conduct themselves, or lists of rules for success. These things are fine and appropriate for the adolescent and young adult. But to think grown people think this way astounds me. And I won’t even start how easily this kind of thinking leads to abuse and manipulation.

I could be wrong about this. It has been a long time since I was a practicing Catholic, and I am not one now. Although I have always remained a man of catholic (emphasis on lower case) tastes and reasoning. But it just seems to me that to many posts I have read here seem only to espouse the vision of the wrathful, vengeful God of the Old Testament. Is that what Catholics are really all about? Fear God and obey the rules. I know that it is not. But why do so many seem to think this way?

A couple of thoughts on this…

1. Perhaps the word “fear” isn’t speaking of cowering in a corner or trembling uncontrollably. Perhaps it’s more leaning toward “respect.” For example, I can say that I fear a lion or I can say that I respect a lion. In the end I simply mean that I do not wish to become lion chow.
2. If one understands the possibility that the word “fear” can in some cases be used in place of the word “respect” than it might also be understood that a person can “respect” his earthly father without having a literal fear of him physically. For example, I can “respect” my father AND I can “fear” making my father upset. What does that mean exactly? Basically, it means that I love my father enough to not want to see him angry, worried, sad, etc.
3. If one can understand the first 2 thoughts above, and apply them toward their earthly father, why would it be difficult to also apply them to our Heavenly Father? I believe it is certainly possible to love, respect and fear God. When I was a child and did something wrong, I may have feared the punishment that would be handed out by my father. Does that mean that I didn’t love my father too? Of course not. So it is with my Heavenly Father.

 

[colmcille1]

Your problem is dividing God into two parts. It can’t be done. You have to love and fear him. The two go hand in hand. It’s also circular. If you really love him, you won’t do all those sinful things because they aren’t loving things to do. So when you get to that point, the fear should kick in.

The issue with modern Christianity/Catholicisms is that it’s 99% lovey dubby. No consequences. No sin. No big deal. That doesn’t work anymore than the old childlike do this or else approach.

Very true. The more “liberalised” the world becomes, the more the time-honoured precepts of the Catholic Faith would conveniently appear to non-believers as being of the “God-fearing” kind. This is deceptive thinking. Only the very arrogant or very foolish would assume that His Way does not apply to them.
God Bless,
Colmcille1.

 

[Slowlearner]

For a long time I have divided religious people, particularly Christians, into two distinct groups; fear of god people and love of God people. I have never had much respect for fear of God people. After looking around here for a while it seems to me that there is a lot more fear of god in Catholicism than I thought. Or at least there seems to be in a lot of the posts I have read.
I know that there has been a preponderance of it in history. It is even considered a respected quality. “He was a God fearing man”.
This construction seems the farthest thing any actual deity would desire. In fact the God of the God fearing seems closest to a madman than anything else. Perhaps the stern rule enforcer is a suitable image for a child. Yet when our own children grow we expect more of them than obedience. It is only the lowest among us who require the threat of punishment to restrain their savagery. Is this really what people think. Man is a savage beast and God is the rule giver and punisher.
When I say “love of God” I don’t mean some sanctimonious ****. I mean running to something instead of running from something.
Some of the posts I read amaze me. Don’t people know that the point of confession is not to beg for mercy from the pit of hell. As in the confess and you shall be spared way. It is to prepare your soul to commune with God.
I can pardon of this thinking in the young. When they want to know the rules and procedures of life. Everyman at some point has read books on how to conduct themselves, or lists of rules for success. These things are fine and appropriate for the adolescent and young adult. But to think grown people think this way astounds me. And I won’t even start how easily this kind of thinking leads to abuse and manipulation.

I could be wrong about this. It has been a long time since I was a practicing Catholic, and I am not one now. Although I have always remained a man of catholic (emphasis on lower case) tastes and reasoning. But it just seems to me that to many posts I have read here seem only to espouse the vision of the wrathful, vengeful God of the Old Testament. Is that what Catholics are really all about? Fear God and obey the rules. I know that it is not. But why do so many seem to think this way?

I have wondered about the same thing myself. Now I try to be cautious not to spend too much time trying to walk in other’s shoes. (1) It takes plenty of time to keep my own soul in line with God. (2) It is impossible to know another man’s heart. (3) People have different personalities and will respond to God with behaviors that are different.

On the last point, one way to divide people is: lovers v. fighters. Lovers can fight, but that is not their first instinct. Fighters can love, but their first instinct is to fight. Things like that can have an effect on the way people seem to approach God.

But why do so many seem to think this way?

The real question is do these people know and love God? If they do, we’re done. If not, we need to ask what can we do to help them?

I have never had much respect for fear of God people.

But which kind of person are you?

 

[mcteague]

I am definitely not a fear of god person. But note that I did not choose this forum by accident. This is actually a philosophical not theological consideration. There are many posts here that I find both ethically and intellectually objectionable. But I do not want to bore the world with them all at once.
A very basic question is what is the nature of god and our relationship to him/her. Those who choose fear abandon reason and responsibility But inevitably reason may have it’s own problems.

 

[colmcille1]

I am definitely not a fear of god person. But note that I did not choose this forum by accident. This is actually a philosophical not theological consideration. There are many posts here that I find both ethically and intellectually objectionable. But I do not want to bore the world with them all at once.
A very basic question is what is the nature of god and our relationship to him/her. Those who choose fear abandon reason and responsibility But inevitably reason may have it’s own problems.

You will find that part of your answer lies in the fact that true believers refer to God with the respectful initial capital letter.
I trust you can research that aspect yourself as well.

 

[mcteague]

Standing on the train writing on my iPhone, I am lucky to write even semi-grammatically correct sentences. No disrespect for dieties or peoples beliefs intended

 

[colmcille1]

Standing on the train writing on my iPhone, I am lucky to write even semi-grammatically correct sentences. No disrespect for dieties or peoples beliefs intended

My apologies, sir! Forgive me for sounding a tad defensive.
God Bless,
Colmcille1.

 

[Slowlearner]

A very basic question is what is the nature of god and our relationship to him/her. Those who choose fear abandon reason and responsibility But inevitably reason may have it’s own problems.

While we might imagine a person fearing God, as one might fear a growling dog. And when we hear people talk about punishment and wrath, we imagine screaming angry man, intent on destruction. But I’m not sure these images are necessarily the correct way of understanding what it means for someone when they say, I fear God.

In other words, i don’t know how deeply you have gone into the notion of someone fearing God. There are people who love their spouse so much that they fear them – in that case it not healthy and is sinful – but why would not a similar fear of God be good? In that case, you don’t fear any bad action from God, but you love him so much that you fear your own actions might drive yourself away from him. Of course that fear should be short lived as we know that we can return to God’s grace through the sacrament of reconciliation.

 

[mcteague]

It is certainly true that one could fear to displease or offend God. Just as one might fear to disappoint our children, parents, or any loved one. But that is the fear of being less than you could or should be. I am speaking more of those think you can come to know God by simply obeying some list of rules.
Does it matter that I do not kill because I value human life, and have sufficient empathy and understanding to see the world in part from the perspective of those who may have enraged, or hurt me. Rather than simply because I fear the electric chair. Some would say no. But I would say yes. We should teach ethics not obedience.
I think some people think they can avoid the pitfalls of free choice by avoiding reason. Because there is some risk that our own reason might lead us to different conclusions than many official church beliefs. But that has to be better than being mindless parrots; acting without the slightest effort to understand. Its like students I have known who manage to memorize the answers for a test without any actual understanding of the subject. Sometimes they get A’s. But can this really be how eternity works?

 

[JackVk]

It is certainly true that one could fear to displease or offend God. Just as one might fear to disappoint our children, parents, or any loved one. But that is the fear of being less than you could or should be. I am speaking more of those think you can come to know God by simply obeying some list of rules.
Does it matter that I do not kill because I value human life, and have sufficient empathy and understanding to see the world in part from the perspective of those who may have enraged, or hurt me. Rather than simply because I fear the electric chair. Some would say no. But I would say yes. We should teach ethics not obedience.
I think some people think they can avoid the pitfalls of free choice by avoiding reason. Because there is some risk that our own reason might lead us to different conclusions than many official church beliefs. But that has to be better than being mindless parrots; acting without the slightest effort to understand. Its like students I have known who manage to memorize the answers for a test without any actual understanding of the subject. Sometimes they get A’s. But can this really be how eternity works?

No, that’s not the way it works. A true Christian dies to him/herself and gives his/her life to God. God sees your true intentions, whether you are doing His will because you love Him, or if you’re doing it because you want the reward of eternal life.

Another definition of fearing God is related to the magnitude of His greatness. In short, He is so great that it’s scary.

 

[Slowlearner]

It is certainly true that one could fear to displease or offend God. Just as one might fear to disappoint our children, parents, or any loved one. But that is the fear of being less than you could or should be. I am speaking more of those think you can come to know God by simply obeying some list of rules.
Does it matter that I do not kill because I value human life, and have sufficient empathy and understanding to see the world in part from the perspective of those who may have enraged, or hurt me. Rather than simply because I fear the electric chair. Some would say no. But I would say yes. We should teach ethics not obedience.
I think some people think they can avoid the pitfalls of free choice by avoiding reason. Because there is some risk that our own reason might lead us to different conclusions than many official church beliefs. But that has to be better than being mindless parrots; acting without the slightest effort to understand. Its like students I have known who manage to memorize the answers for a test without any actual understanding of the subject. Sometimes they get A’s. But can this really be how eternity works?

To add to what Jackvk said, a true Christian wants to follow the rules, but knows that we do not have the power to earn our way to heaven. Only God’s grace given in return for our love of him saves us. But it seems you are moving to a new topic. On this subject, remember what we say in mass before receiving eucharist: I am not worthy to receive you but only say the word and I shall be healed.

As for reason, I believe, as you say, that you value human life and you have empathy. Where do these values come from? Do they come from reason? Or are they premised in feelings?

 

[agustinusbiotam]

For a long time I have divided religious people, particularly Christians, into two distinct groups; fear of god people and love of God people. I have never had much respect for fear of God people. After looking around here for a while it seems to me that there is a lot more fear of god in Catholicism than I thought. Or at least there seems to be in a lot of the posts I have read.
I know that there has been a preponderance of it in history. It is even considered a respected quality. “He was a God fearing man”.
This construction seems the farthest thing any actual deity would desire. In fact the God of the God fearing seems closest to a madman than anything else. Perhaps the stern rule enforcer is a suitable image for a child. Yet when our own children grow we expect more of them than obedience. It is only the lowest among us who require the threat of punishment to restrain their savagery. Is this really what people think. Man is a savage beast and God is the rule giver and punisher.
When I say “love of God” I don’t mean some sanctimonious ****. I mean running to something instead of running from something.
Some of the posts I read amaze me. Don’t people know that the point of confession is not to beg for mercy from the pit of hell. As in the confess and you shall be spared way. It is to prepare your soul to commune with God.
I can pardon of this thinking in the young. When they want to know the rules and procedures of life. Everyman at some point has read books on how to conduct themselves, or lists of rules for success. These things are fine and appropriate for the adolescent and young adult. But to think grown people think this way astounds me. And I won’t even start how easily this kind of thinking leads to abuse and manipulation.

I could be wrong about this. It has been a long time since I was a practicing Catholic, and I am not one now. Although I have always remained a man of catholic (emphasis on lower case) tastes and reasoning. But it just seems to me that to many posts I have read here seem only to espouse the vision of the wrathful, vengeful God of the Old Testament. Is that what Catholics are really all about? Fear God and obey the rules. I know that it is not. But why do so many seem to think this way?

I am a Catholic and i constantly searching or God through my life… while I do that, I fear that I will lose Him. Because If I lose Him, I lose everything He has given men through all my life. He is my blessing, love, tear and joy (everythingggggggggggg)

 

[jkiernan56]

It is certainly true that one could fear to displease or offend God. Just as one might fear to disappoint our children, parents, or any loved one.

This is what true “Fear of the Lord” means. When you love someone, you want to do everything that is pleasing to the person you love. You “fear” doing anything that would upset or displease the person you love. That is true on a human level and in our relationship with God. I heard it once said that we become “like” the God that we worship. If God is an angry oger, then we become one too. If God is loving, we become loving. What we become depends on the kind of God we worship.