Feast of Our Lady of Guadalupe Dancing

[JustifiedReason]

I have been a Catholic for 3 years now and married in the Catholic church last year. My wife enjoys going to Mass on December 12th for the Feast of Our Lady of Guadalupe. However, the church we went to last year had a few practices that shocked me–

1. The Mexican flag was draped around the tilma image of Our Lady of Guadalupe up on the sanctuary.
2. I believe after the mass had ended, or possibly even prior to the declaration that the mass has ended, there was a ritual dance with Aztec warriors in armor with pagan imagery and war drums.

I have multiple questions. Are we confining an approved apparition to a specific nationality when we surround the tilma with a certain country’s flag? Obviously non-Mexicans can still venerate Mary by doing such. However, the fact that she is not only the Queen of the Americas, but also appeared to people before Mexico even existed, seems to provide reasons to not make it an overtly Mexican-themed practice.

Also, what place does a pagan inspired ritual have in a church? Even if it is to incorporate culture and history into the feast day, isn’t the fact that the Aztecs committed extremely evil acts enough to not conjure up images of that civilization? We aren’t being reminded of holy things when we are looking at warriors dancing to war drums-- no matter the miraculous conversion of that civilization. There’s nothing Catholic about it and everything about it is Aztec.

Lastly, I know many have an issue with clapping after mass has ended/recessional hymn and also dancing during the liturgy. If the dancing is performed before or after the mass has ended, would it not be improper for there to be dancing either way? From my understanding, the US Bishops have expressly condemned liturgical dancing and a few popes have spoken out against clapping after the mass has ended/recessional hymn. This practice would seem to be condemned either way (considering I don’t remember the timing of the dancing).

 

[PaulfromIowa]

A national flag should not be displayed in the sanctuary, nor should there be any dancing, Aztec or otherwise, during the Mass. I would discuss this with the pastor.

 

[petra22]

You are having a lot of issues I’ve never had to deal with… praying that all will be answered for you!

 

[7_Sorrows]

A national flag should not be displayed in the sanctuary, nor should there be any dancing, Aztec or otherwise, during the Mass. I would discuss this with the pastor.

I live in the Southwest. I have only been twice, but I don’t think I have seen the
Mexican flag.
We do have the dancers dressed in their costumes from around that time and there
is dancing. About 98% of people there are Hispanic or of Mexican ancestry.

 

[pianistclare]

Here we go:

Festivities for Our Lady of Guadalupe use the green , red, and white colors of Mexico because she appeared in Mexico and it is primarily a Mexican devotion, Most countries in South America and Central America do not celebrate this feast.

The dancers are called Matachines. They dance in honor of Our Lady due to the fact that with her appearance, the human sacrifice in Mexico ceased. The costumes are colorful and the music very rhythmic, and varies from state to state in Mexico as to color and design.
Our Matachines practice for weeks and perform before the Mass in procession with a statue and the recitation of the Rosary. Then they arrive at the doors of the church and lead the Priest and the Altar servers and Deacons in the opening Procession,.They also dance and lead the Gift Bearers at Offertory.

The day generally begins with Las Mananitas…a song of morning to Our Lady. Breakfast, a re-enactment of the miracle and the story with teens acting out the entire thing. Then lunch, a rest, the Mass and Dancing in the evening concluding with a huge dinner, generally covered by all the Mexican restaurateurs int he area. They also pay for the hundreds of dozen roses in the Sanctuary. Each family also bring their own dozen roses for Our Lady.

It’s a huge celebration. One day. That’s it. Everything has to come down asap because it’s in Advent. In our Archdiocese we have a large immigrant population and the Archbishop is delighted with all the various festivities, even offering a travelling image of Our Lady of Guadalupe to visit each parish and Catholic school prior to Dec.12th.

Don’t fret.
Todo bien.

I’m also from New Mexico, and in a similar way the Pueblo Churches during Mass they tend to use their own pottery vessels for the offertory. They have permissions for the Archbishop to do so there as well, including their own ceremonial dancers who have blended their native culture with Catholic culture. The Franciscans converted most of the pueblos, and their parishes are all named for Franciscan saints.

When you attend Mass all over the world, you see that many cultures do things differently than we do it here in the States, and in Europe, even within the parameters of Liturgy and under direction of their Bishops.

 

[7_Sorrows]

Here we go:

Festivities for Our Lady of Guadalupe use the green , red, and white colors of Mexico because she appeared in Mexico and it is primarily a Mexican devotion, Most countries in South America and Central America do not celebrate this feast.

The dancers are called Matachines. They dance in honor of Our Lady due to the fact that with her appearance, the human sacrifice in Mexico ceased. The costumes are colorful and the music very rhythmic, and varies from state to state in Mexico as to color and design.
Our Matachines practice for weeks and perform before the Mass in procession with a statue and the recitation of the Rosary. Then they arrive at the doors of the church and lead the Priest and the Altar servers and Deacons in the opening Procession,.They also dance and lead the Gift Bearers at Offertory.

The day generally begins with Las Mananitas…a song of morning to Our Lady. Breakfast, a re-enactment of the miracle and the story with teens acting out the entire thing. Then lunch, a rest, the Mass and Dancing in the evening concluding with a huge dinner, generally covered by all the Mexican restaurateurs int he area. They also pay for the hundreds of dozen roses in the Sanctuary. Each family also bring their own dozen roses for Our Lady.

It’s a huge celebration. One day. That’s it. Everything has to come down asap because it’s in Advent. In our Archdiocese we have a large immigrant population and the Archbishop is delighted with all the various festivities, even offering a travelling image of Our Lady of Guadalupe to visit each parish and Catholic school prior to Dec.12th.

Don’t fret.
Todo bien.

I’m also from New Mexico, and in a similar way the Pueblo Churches during Mass they tend to use their own pottery vessels for the offertory. They have permissions for the Archbishop to do so there as well, including their own ceremonial dancers who have blended their native culture with Catholic culture. The Franciscans converted most of the pueblos, and their parishes are all named for Franciscan saints.

When you attend Mass all over the world, you see that many cultures do things differently than we do it here in the States, and in Europe, even within the parameters of Liturgy and under direction of their Bishops.

Yes that sounds like the way Our Lady of Guadalupe is celebrated at our church too.
It is a one day celebration, but many different festivities. The Matachines is the
name of the dancers. Thanks for reminding me.

 

[Catholic1954]

I have been a Catholic for 3 years now and married in the Catholic church last year. My wife enjoys going to Mass on December 12th for the Feast of Our Lady of Guadalupe. However, the church we went to last year had a few practices that shocked me–

1. The Mexican flag was draped around the tilma image of Our Lady of Guadalupe up on the sanctuary.
2. I believe after the mass had ended, or possibly even prior to the declaration that the mass has ended, there was a ritual dance with Aztec warriors in armor with pagan imagery and war drums.

I have multiple questions. Are we confining an approved apparition to a specific nationality when we surround the tilma with a certain country’s flag? Obviously non-Mexicans can still venerate Mary by doing such. However, the fact that she is not only the Queen of the Americas, but also appeared to people before Mexico even existed, seems to provide reasons to not make it an overtly Mexican-themed practice.

Also, what place does a pagan inspired ritual have in a church? Even if it is to incorporate culture and history into the feast day, isn’t the fact that the Aztecs committed extremely evil acts enough to not conjure up images of that civilization? We aren’t being reminded of holy things when we are looking at warriors dancing to war drums-- no matter the miraculous conversion of that civilization. There’s nothing Catholic about it and everything about it is Aztec.

Lastly, I know many have an issue with clapping after mass has ended/recessional hymn and also dancing during the liturgy. If the dancing is performed before or after the mass has ended, would it not be improper for there to be dancing either way? From my understanding, the US Bishops have expressly condemned liturgical dancing and a few popes have spoken out against clapping after the mass has ended/recessional hymn. This practice would seem to be condemned either way (considering I don’t remember the timing of the dancing).

Cultural dancing after the Mass has ended is acceptable. You can leave and not watch it. I live 20 miles from the Mexican border and all Mexicans (Catholic or not) that I know, have a national affection for OL of Guadalupe; she may be Patroness of the Americas, but she appeared to them and they like to celebrate that.

 

[wild_thing]

Here we go:

Festivities for Our Lady of Guadalupe use the green , red, and white colors of Mexico because she appeared in Mexico and it is primarily a Mexican devotion, Most countries in South America and Central America do not celebrate this feast.

The dancers are called Matachines. They dance in honor of Our Lady due to the fact that with her appearance, the human sacrifice in Mexico ceased. The costumes are colorful and the music very rhythmic, and varies from state to state in Mexico as to color and design.
Our Matachines practice for weeks and perform before the Mass in procession with a statue and the recitation of the Rosary. Then they arrive at the doors of the church and lead the Priest and the Altar servers and Deacons in the opening Procession,.They also dance and lead the Gift Bearers at Offertory.

The day generally begins with Las Mananitas…a song of morning to Our Lady. Breakfast, a re-enactment of the miracle and the story with teens acting out the entire thing. Then lunch, a rest, the Mass and Dancing in the evening concluding with a huge dinner, generally covered by all the Mexican restaurateurs int he area. They also pay for the hundreds of dozen roses in the Sanctuary. Each family also bring their own dozen roses for Our Lady.

It’s a huge celebration. One day. That’s it. Everything has to come down asap because it’s in Advent. In our Archdiocese we have a large immigrant population and the Archbishop is delighted with all the various festivities, even offering a travelling image of Our Lady of Guadalupe to visit each parish and Catholic school prior to Dec.12th.

Don’t fret.
Todo bien.

I’m also from New Mexico, and in a similar way the Pueblo Churches during Mass they tend to use their own pottery vessels for the offertory. They have permissions for the Archbishop to do so there as well, including their own ceremonial dancers who have blended their native culture with Catholic culture. The Franciscans converted most of the pueblos, and their parishes are all named for Franciscan saints.

When you attend Mass all over the world, you see that many cultures do things differently than we do it here in the States, and in Europe, even within the parameters of Liturgy and under direction of their Bishops.

That sounds lovely. Reminds me of David dancing before the Ark. I’ve always found it rather sad that feast day celebrations have basically dwindled down to nothing except maybe a procession on Corpus Christi or possibly something on the parish saint’s feast day. At least, in a lot of places in the U.S…

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I’ve been to this celebration at our local Hispanic national parish. I thought it was wonderful that the Hispanics have such a big festival for Our Lady. It was very much centered around the Mass too - they have about 6 Masses that day and so many people were at the evening one I attended, it was standing room only and they had a bunch of guys parking cars and several cars of the local police watching to make sure no mischief disturbed things. It does my heart good to see people jockeying to get into a Mass like it’s a rock concert.

The Matachines, which someone else already explained, danced after the Mass was over and the priest had left the altar. In this parish they all wore costumes with pictures of Mary or Catholic saints, up to and including Saint Pope John Paul II. The costumes were beautiful and obviously made painstakingly by hand with the lifelike pictures all done in sequins.

It was a beautiful cultural celebration and very reverent, I thought, and clearly done out of a great love for Our Lady, Jesus and the saints. My advice is that if you are not part of that culture then don’t pick at how they do things, and if it’s not to your taste, do not attend. If there was something wrong with what they were doing, Pope Francis would tell them to stop.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I’ve always found it rather sad that feast day celebrations have basically dwindled down to nothing except maybe a procession on Corpus Christi or possibly something on the parish saint’s feast day. At least, in a lot of places in the U.S…

Many Italian communities have a big Feast of the Assumption still. There is a huge one in Cleveland near where I went to college. The Mayor even has appeared at it. Although much of what goes on at the Feast is not exactly “holy” (people drink, etc.), the Church is still a centerpiece of the festivities, with Masses so crowded you literally can’t get in the door, two big Mary statue processions through the neighborhood streets (one during the day and one after dark), prayers outside the Church just before the fireworks closing the Feast, and the Church offering amusement games and rides and serving awesome Italian food all day as a fundraiser. A major summer event in that city.

 

[midori]

Although I’ve lived in TX for nearly 30 years, I only first started noticing the Hispanic community’s Guadalupe festivities when I moved to my current tiny, rural parish.

The Aztecs were known as the Tenochta or the Mexica, which is where “Mexico” got its name. Yes, Mexico didn’t become a country until 1821, over 300 years after the apparitions, but don’t you think that’s a case of nits being picked? Our Lady of Guadalupe is the patroness of Mexico. And just like you can have all sorts of “Our Lady of America” statues with the American flag incorporated into the composition-- should we insist on an artistic flag with only 48 stars for a 1956 apparition?-- why not acknowledge her connection to Mexico, for an apparition that happened in Mexico, put an end to Aztec sacrifices, and converted 10 million in 10 years? My congregation doesn’t do it-- but it’s not surprising or offensive. If the question is “should there be flags in the sanctuary”, the USCCB website says:

Surprisingly to many, there are no regulations of any kind governing the display of flags in Roman Catholic Churches. Neither the Code of Canon law, nor the liturgical books of the Roman rite comment on this practice. As a result, the question of whether and how to display the American flag in a Catholic Church is left up to the judgment of the diocesan bishop, who in turn often delegates this to the discretion of the pastor.

At my church, the dancers (who had been practicing for hours several nights a week since October) joined the recessional, and then danced out into the parking lot. There would be a number of dancers, one or two drummers, and a few sturdy young men who carried the statue of Our Lady of Guadalupe. It was very obvious that it was a dance in honor of her. Dancing is how Aztecs prayed.

To the Aztecs, her folded hands and her bent left knee, with the tip of one shoe showing as she stepped on the new moon crescent, signify that the Blessed Virgin is dancing and clapping her hands to the rhythm of the maracas, their musical instrument - this was how the Aztecs prayed.

Dallas’ cathedral is the Cathedral Shrine of the Virgin of Guadalupe. They put on a very nice Guadalupe procession, and obviously, their bishop is cool with it. It looks like Des Plaines, IL outdoes all of us in TX… I wish we had that much enthusiasm for something amongst the Anglo community!

 

[jaimeleglise]

I’m glad the OP asked. I have been a Catholic for over fifty years and had never heard of this. I too, would have questioned it because it Is way outside my experience.

 

[pnewton]

Also, what place does a pagan inspired ritual have in a church?.

This ritual is inspired by love of Mary. I can understand why it my seem shocking, but you really should learn more about it if you are going to formulate an opinion, especially a negative one. The Matachines’ veneration of Our Lady of Guadalupe is a tradition of worship that predates the United States, when what we now call the American Southwest was Spanish, then Mexican. The Catholic Church will often maintain cultural traditions between conquest and political change.

It is hard to imagine today just how miraculous the conversion of the indigenous people of the Spanish territory was in the length of time it happened. My own parish has a very active group that does this.

 

[JustifiedReason]

This ritual is inspired by love of Mary. I can understand why it my seem shocking, but you really should learn more about it if you are going to formulate an opinion, especially a negative one. The Matachines’ veneration of Our Lady of Guadalupe is a tradition of worship that predates the United States, when what we now call the American Southwest was Spanish, then Mexican. The Catholic Church will often maintain cultural traditions between conquest and political change.

It is hard to imagine today just how miraculous the conversion of the indigenous people of the Spanish territory was in the length of time it happened. My own parish has a very active group that does this.

If there was an apparition during the late 30s in Germany and Nazis converted to Catholicism, would we be fine seeing dancers in Nazi Stormtrooper uniforms, swaztikas, and weaponry marching down the aisles merely because they profess to “love Mary” in their bodily movements?

I think the time since Aztecs were slaughtering innocent men, women, and children on tops of pyramids is playing into the acceptance of Aztec imagery. When the “Matachines” or “Concheros” have pyramids on their armor, I am reminded not of Mary, but of a blood-thirsty people. The notion that they converted should also be expressed in their turning away of certain aspects of their old lives. I would imagine a person who loves Mary, and as a result also loves Jesus, would want to free themselves of old-world practices that don’t express that love.

 

[JustifiedReason]

Midori:

It also goes on to say: “The Bishops’ Committee on the Liturgy has in the past encouraged pastors not to place the flag within the sanctuary itself, in order to reserve that space for the altar, the ambo, the presidential chair and the tabernacle. Instead, the suggestion has been made that the American flag be placed outside the sanctuary, or in the vestibule of the Church together with a book of prayer requests. It remains, however, for the diocesan bishop to determine regulations in this matter.”

I think the cause for alarm is justified if one sees a flag in the sanctuary. It is entirely possible that due to this being a once a year event, that not much thought has even been put into the propriety of the matter. Had my wife not pushed for me to get up at 4am to go to this very specific Mass, then I would have never developed an opinion on what is taking place.

 

[midori]

I don’t know about their costumes you saw (I’ve never seen pyramids on anyone in my area), but the costumes at mine are usually red vest/red skirt/white shirt, decorated with little clacky wooden straws, and usually have the Guadalupe image and other floral imagery in sequins or as an applique.

Like this.

Or these.

Or these.

Others are embroidered with Christian symbols, like crosses or shells.

They carry their little bow-and-arrow props. The ones in my area look as threatening as these do.

I’m not really seeing why you’re imagining dancing Nazis, when all of the imagery and symbolism makes it clear that it’s a Christian celebration going on. And that’s the whole point-- against all logic and expectation, the Aztecs forsook thousands’ of years worth of socio-religious culture that relied on blood sacrifice to “keep the world from ending” and embraced Christianity. Expecting them to magically turn European at the same time is sort of like being critical of American Christianity because it doesn’t have all the trappings and visuals indigenous to the 1st c. Middle East.

Different things appeal to different people. The Guadalupe celebrations appeal to your wife, but not to you. And that’s okay. But if a group of people want to celebrate how their ancestors/people/culture were saved by God, and they want to do a dance in the parking lot or a procession down the street to commemorate the event, and there’s nothing doctrinally incorrect going on, I’m not about to tell them, “I’m sorry, but you’re doing it all wrong.”

 

[Tis_Bearself]

If there was an apparition during the late 30s in Germany and Nazis converted to Catholicism, would we be fine seeing dancers in Nazi Stormtrooper uniforms, swaztikas, and weaponry marching down the aisles merely because they profess to “love Mary” in their bodily movements?

I think this thread has just jumped the shark.

With all due respect, you have been a Catholic for only 3 years and this tradition has been going on for many, many decades under many, many bishops and Popes in many places in Mexico and the USA. Don’t you think maybe you should just stop, and have some respect for the cultural traditions of other fervent Catholics?

 

[JustifiedReason]

…It does my heart good to see people jockeying to get into a Mass like it’s a rock concert…

…In this parish they all wore costumes…

…My advice is that if you are not part of that culture then don’t pick at how they do things, and if it’s not to your taste, do not attend. If there was something wrong with what they were doing, Pope Francis would tell them to stop.

Mass is not a rock concert. Mass is not for entertainment. Mass is for worship. I know some may say that clapping at the end of mass is just a preference, but its also that sort of action in God’s House that exhibits the sort of mental assent that His House is a place of entertainment and enjoyment.

---

"Can. 1210 Only those things which serve the exercise or promotion of worship, piety, or religion are permitted in a sacred place; anything not consonant with the holiness of the place is forbidden. In an individual case, however, the ordinary can permit other uses which are not contrary to the holiness of the place.

Can. 1211 Sacred places are violated by gravely injurious actions done in them with scandal to the faithful, actions which, in the judgment of the local ordinary, are so grave and contrary to the holiness of the place that it is not permitted to carry on worship in them until the damage is repaired by a penitential rite according to the norm of the liturgical books."

---

I think if one steps away from the argument that “because there is a historical aspect to what is going on, then it is Holy”, and we take a look at what is actually being represented, then we can truly discern this.

The notion that people have been doing this for X years, so “respect them” is not persuasive. To discredit my understanding due to me being Catholic only X years is not persuasive either.

I don’t expect any civilization to deny who they are anymore than Jesus, the Apostles, or the Church does. We are not our sins. I understand the syncretism that the Aztecs underwent through their conversion-- they understood God in a certain way that non-Aztecs don’t. But to enter a Holy place representing Unholy things is sacrilegious.

 

[pianistclare]

If there was an apparition during the late 30s in Germany and Nazis converted to Catholicism, would we be fine seeing dancers in Nazi Stormtrooper uniforms, swaztikas, and weaponry marching down the aisles merely because they profess to “love Mary” in their bodily movements?

I think the time since Aztecs were slaughtering innocent men, women, and children on tops of pyramids is playing into the acceptance of Aztec imagery. When the “Matachines” or “Concheros” have pyramids on their armor, I am reminded not of Mary, but of a blood-thirsty people. The notion that they converted should also be expressed in their turning away of certain aspects of their old lives. I would imagine a person who loves Mary, and as a result also loves Jesus, would want to free themselves of old-world practices that don’t express that love.

But they DO express love.
You really need to take a step back. Your example is not the same thing AT ALL.
How terrible to bring up Nazism in light of another culture, especially one that is so steeped in Catholicism since the 1500’s.
Remember, the Knights of Columbus often do an Honor Guard at Church and they bring their swords.
By your logic we should never have a Manger scene, because no one rides donkeys across the desert anymore. Nor should the priests wear vestments. Nor should the Sisters wear habits. Nor should we carry on the many traditions that we take from the Jews. The Passover Meal and the Eucharistic meal are of the same origin.
While we’re at it, let’s toss out Gregorian Chant
Try to learn before you throw out such rhetoric. I know you think you’re somehow defending Our Lady, but it doesn’t honor Our Lady in the least.
Read the text of what she said to Juan Diego.

 

[pianistclare]

Mass is not a rock concert. Mass is not for entertainment. Mass is for worship. I know some may say that clapping at the end of mass is just a preference, but its also that sort of action in God’s House that exhibits the sort of mental assent that His House is a place of entertainment and enjoyment.

---

"Can. 1210 Only those things which serve the exercise or promotion of worship, piety, or religion are permitted in a sacred place; anything not consonant with the holiness of the place is forbidden. In an individual case, however, the ordinary can permit other uses which are not contrary to the holiness of the place.

Can. 1211 Sacred places are violated by gravely injurious actions done in them with scandal to the faithful, actions which, in the judgment of the local ordinary, are so grave and contrary to the holiness of the place that it is not permitted to carry on worship in them until the damage is repaired by a penitential rite according to the norm of the liturgical books."

---

I think if one steps away from the argument that “because there is a historical aspect to what is going on, then it is Holy”, and we take a look at what is actually being represented, then we can truly discern this.

The notion that people have been doing this for X years, so “respect them” is not persuasive. To discredit my understanding due to me being Catholic only X years is not persuasive either.

I don’t expect any civilization to deny who they are anymore than Jesus, the Apostles, or the Church does. We are not our sins. I understand the syncretism that the Aztecs underwent through their conversion-- they understood God in a certain way that non-Aztecs don’t. But to enter a Holy place representing Unholy things is sacrilegious.

No is is sacrificing humans at the Guadalupe Feast day Mass.
Tell it to your Bishop. I’m SURE he’ll have strong words.