Feast of Our Lady of Guadalupe Dancing

[Ridgerunner]

I recall reading that there are a number of things Our Lady of Guadalupe signifies for Mexicans (at least for the non-Mayans). Among them is the message that the natives would survive.

It’s kind of complex, and I don’t recall all of it, but there is a combination of a pre-Christian belief that the end of the world, or at least of the Aztecs, would be at the hands of a pagan god named Quetzelcoatl; a really negative sort of god. During the post-conquest period, disease almost wiped out the Aztecs and neighboring tribes, and they thought they were finished entirely as a people. This was sort of mixed with the Quetzelcoatl myth. Regardless, they thought they were doomed.

I understand there are a lot of “messages” connected with Our Lady of Guadalupe, not the least of them being the belief that she didn’t really say “Guadalupe”, but “Coatlashupe” in the Aztec language, which means “conquerer of Quezelcoatl”. There is all sorts of symbolism around her image and on her clothing that is peculiarly Aztec and has its own meaning.

Now, it is thought by some (one would almost have to be one) that Our Lady is not actually presented in her image as an Indian, but as a mixed person; a “mestizo” which most Mexicans are, to one degree or another. And so, it is thought by some that her appearance meant that, yes, the then-rapidly-dying Aztecs would go on living, but in another form; as “mestizos” like her. That remotely gave rise to today’s Mexican concept of and reverence for “la raza” (the race) which is thought to have been miraculously announced by Our Lady as the “surviving (mixed) race” resulting from Aztec disaster and Spanish conquest.

Anyway, as an Anglo, I am sure I don’t fully understand it and probably could never have the same feelings for it as Mexicans do. But it is interesting, even if much of it is inscrutable to me.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Again, with all due respect, I think you (the OP, not Ridgerunner) coming on here and basically lecturing other people who don’t agree with you is speaking volumes about your entire approach to the Mass, which seems to be “my way is right and the rest of you are doing it wrong”.

This is a big problem with a lot of Catholics these days. I strongly advise that you take a big step back before you too fall into this trap. It’s nice that you converted, but that does not make you the expert, and you need to understand that you might possibly be incorrect in your understanding, and perhaps also express your points with a lot more diplomacy than going on a rant comparing people to Nazis.

I’ll be stepping off this thread and hitting the “Ignore” button now. I agree with Clare, please take your concerns to the Bishop.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Maybe I should add something.

I don’t think everybody believes the “Coatlashupe” thing. But there is no “Guadalupe” where Our Lady appeared. There is, however, a shrine to (another) “Our Lady of Guadalupe” in Spain. It is thought that the Spanish bishop thought Juan Diego was saying Our Lady identified herself as the Our Lady that was revered at Guadalupe in Spain.

The next part is fascinating to me. Our Lady was right. The Aztecs were dying of European bacterial and vial diseases to which they had little or no defense. Geneticists have discovered in recent years that Amerinds like the Aztecs’ immune systems are more geared to parasitical diseases, while those of Europeans and Asians are more geared to viral and bacterial diseases. Europeans didn’t die like flies of their own diseases because they had acquired at least relative immunity to them and carried the genetic codes for those defenses.

Some Aztecs would have survived on their own. But as a sizeable population, it’s entirely possible that the bulk of the people survived exactly by acquiring genetic information by intermarriage with the Spanish. The “average” Mexican is about 80% Indian and 20% European by ancestry, with local variations here and there and among different classes.

And so, if part of Our Lady’s message was “Quetzelcoatl (the evil god) will not kill you off. You will survive as mixed, like me” that is truly astonishing because it is probably true in a literal sense that nobody could have possibly understood at the time other than by Her saying it would be true.

 

[pianistclare]

Maybe I should add something.

I don’t think everybody believes the “Coatlashupe” thing. But there is no “Guadalupe” where Our Lady appeared. There is, however, a shrine to (another) “Our Lady of Guadalupe” in Spain. It is thought that the Spanish bishop thought Juan Diego was saying Our Lady identified herself as the Our Lady that was revered at Guadalupe in Spain.

The next part is fascinating to me. Our Lady was right. The Aztecs were dying of European bacterial and vial diseases to which they had little or no defense. Geneticists have discovered in recent years that Amerinds like the Aztecs’ immune systems are more geared to parasitical diseases, while those of Europeans and Asians are more geared to viral and bacterial diseases. Europeans didn’t die like flies of their own diseases because they had acquired at least relative immunity to them and carried the genetic codes for those defenses.

Some Aztecs would have survived on their own. But as a sizeable population, it’s entirely possible that the bulk of the people survived exactly by acquiring genetic information by intermarriage with the Spanish. The “average” Mexican is about 80% Indian and 20% European by ancestry, with local variations here and there and among different classes.

And so, if part of Our Lady’s message was “Quetzelcoatl (the evil god) will not kill you off. You will survive as mixed, like me” that is truly astonishing because it is probably true in a literal sense that nobody could have possibly understood at the time other than by Her saying it would be true.

Correct.

 

[midori]

Mass is not a rock concert. Mass is not for entertainment. Mass is for worship. I know some may say that clapping at the end of mass is just a preference, but its also that sort of action in God’s House that exhibits the sort of mental assent that His House is a place of entertainment and enjoyment.

But that’s just it— it’s not entertainment. They’re not dancing for you, or for your wife, or for any of the parishoners. (And you yourself said it had happened “after Mass had ended, or maybe just prior to the ite missa est”.)

They’re dancing for Our Lady of Guadalupe, to say “thank you”, or “I love you”. And when you honor Mary, she doesn’t keep anything for herself— it all goes to God. Because that’s her whole purpose, to bring people to God.

And they’re giving this love/gratitude/honor publicly.

It’s more like saying the rosary aloud, in a group, before/after Mass. Just because that group of people over there say the rosary doesn’t mean I have to participate, or have to approve. It doesn’t even mean I have to get up at 4 a.m. to join them.

But for you to be so very negatively affected by memories of something that happened seven months ago, and to be so anchored in your opinion about a celebration/devotion that you only observed the one time, suggests that there’s a deeper concern that’s not being addressed…?

 

[JustifiedReason]

But for you to be so very negatively affected by memories of something that happened seven months ago, and to be so anchored in your opinion about a celebration/devotion that you only observed the one time, suggests that there’s a deeper concern that’s not being addressed…?

The bulk of this thread has been a series of appeals to authority, non-sequitur, and ad hominem. Ultimately, I don’t have to go to a 4 am Mass, but if I choose to do so then I would like to understand what is going on more. As to why in July I am bringing this up on this forum is not something you know. Alluding to some deeper concern as being the basis for my questions/critique is uncharitable.

Granted, some view my form of critique to be uncharitable. However, I do not mean to insult or delegitimize a holy form of prayer/veneration to Mary. I merely seek to call into question the symbolism and history I see displayed-- to any non-Mexican, it is quite shocking as some have already stated in this thread. The fact that it is a 500 year old tradition at this point does not make it a closed discussion as to whether or not it is proper-- the condemnation of Santa Muerte for instance. Before you condemn me for bringing that up, I know they aren’t the same but they do share common roots.

I came from a baptist church seeking the liturgical nature of the Catholic Church as well as the structure and authority it has been gifted. Coming from pure entertainment to Catholicism has been a relief and has given me a feeling of finally being home with God. My one experience was enough to make it a mission to understand it more for the sake of my wife and so I don’t mischaracterize a specific way of veneration.

I am still not convinced, but maybe more can chime in. I don’t want others to view my intentions as hostile. I want the truth, so I am giving my best critique of it in order to get the best answers for me.

 

[SyroMalankara]

Mass is not a rock concert, but OLG Celebrations are not rock concerts either. Ive been to the DesPlaines/Chicago celebrations - hundreds of thousands attend, walking from their home parishes in procession miles and miles away. The atmosphere is solemn for all Liturgical celebrations, amd festive afterward. There is a heavily Mexican theme, obviously, as it should be. We should have MORE public displays of Catholicism like this, not less!

I almost forgot… this is all in the middle of snow packed freezing winter, and entire families participate, from great gramps to tiny newborn!

 

[midori]

No uncharitability was intended. I know that many people have problems with Marian devotions, and it can be a stumbling block for them-- so I just wanted the chance to clarify the problem was with the devotees’ methods, and not with the devotion, if that makes sense.

 

[Nicea325]

A national flag should not be displayed in the sanctuary, nor should there be any dancing, Aztec or otherwise, during the Mass. I would discuss this with the pastor.

Forget the pastor, evidently he allows it. Call the local bishop.

 

[pianistclare]

The Perejundia never happens in the Church. NEVER. Bringing that up really doesn’t add to the discussion, does it? This is a skit performed for the parties and the children. The character pretends to chase them and then gives out candy. Much like costumed characters at Fall Festivals in parishes across the U.S. All of this happens OUTSIDE of liturgy.
As I said before, the Offertory processions with the dancing in parishes and in the pueblos have the full permission of the sitting Archbishops in both cases. One of whom has a PhD in Liturgy, and was the former president of the USCCB. If he says it is appropriate I’m not going to question him. We inquire, and we follow his guidelines. Period. I can assure you, the Mexican populations in parishes are the VERY LAST PEOPLE to ask for special dispensations, special permissions, oddities in liturgical norms, or exceptions of any sort. They tend to be humble and prefer to stay under the radar so to speak for numerous reasons. Also, they have grown up with the norm of “Father said…” Period. End of story. Priests in Mexico are very stern, and strict. No one in Mexico would dare speak to a priest the way Americans are accustomed to speaking to them, or accosting them the way we see people do here on CAF. They certainly don’t seek to change the liturgy to their liking.
Just think if the anglo population made such a fuss over Marian Feast days that are actually Holy Days of Obligation!!! Our kids would know a whole lot more about the faith and the churches would be full to overflowing for Holy Days.
In this way, both communities can learn from one another.
Catechesis from one side, and piety from another.

 

[tawny]

The Perejundia never happens in the Church. NEVER. Bringing that up really doesn’t add to the discussion, does it? This is a skit performed for the parties and the children. The character pretends to chase them and then gives out candy. Much like costumed characters at Fall Festivals in parishes across the U.S. All of this happens OUTSIDE of liturgy.
As I said before, the Offertory processions with the dancing in parishes and in the pueblos have the full permission of the sitting Archbishops in both cases. One of whom has a PhD in Liturgy, and was the former president of the USCCB. If he says it is appropriate I’m not going to question him. We inquire, and we follow his guidelines. Period. I can assure you, the Mexican populations in parishes are the VERY LAST PEOPLE to ask for special dispensations, special permissions, oddities in liturgical norms, or exceptions of any sort. They tend to be humble and prefer to stay under the radar so to speak for numerous reasons. Also, they have grown up with the norm of “Father said…” Period. End of story. Priests in Mexico are very stern, and strict. No one in Mexico would dare speak to a priest the way Americans are accustomed to speaking to them, or accosting them the way we see people do here on CAF. They certainly don’t seek to change the liturgy to their liking.
Just think if the anglo population made such a fuss over Marian Feast days that are actually Holy Days of Obligation!!! Our kids would know a whole lot more about the faith and the churches would be full to overflowing for Holy Days.
In this way, both communities can learn from one another.
Catechesis from one side, and piety from another.

Well stated.

 

[JustifiedReason]

I definitely attended a Mass in the USA-- California to be exact.

 

[thequeen]

Here we go:

Festivities for Our Lady of Guadalupe use the green , red, and white colors of Mexico because she appeared in Mexico and it is primarily a Mexican devotion, Most countries in South America and Central America do not celebrate this feast.

The dancers are called Matachines. They dance in honor of Our Lady due to the fact that with her appearance, the human sacrifice in Mexico ceased. The costumes are colorful and the music very rhythmic, and varies from state to state in Mexico as to color and design.
Our Matachines practice for weeks and perform before the Mass in procession with a statue and the recitation of the Rosary. Then they arrive at the doors of the church and lead the Priest and the Altar servers and Deacons in the opening Procession,.They also dance and lead the Gift Bearers at Offertory.

The day generally begins with Las Mananitas…a song of morning to Our Lady. Breakfast, a re-enactment of the miracle and the story with teens acting out the entire thing. Then lunch, a rest, the Mass and Dancing in the evening concluding with a huge dinner, generally covered by all the Mexican restaurateurs int he area. They also pay for the hundreds of dozen roses in the Sanctuary. Each family also bring their own dozen roses for Our Lady.

It’s a huge celebration. One day. That’s it. Everything has to come down asap because it’s in Advent. In our Archdiocese we have a large immigrant population and the Archbishop is delighted with all the various festivities, even offering a travelling image of Our Lady of Guadalupe to visit each parish and Catholic school prior to Dec.12th.

Don’t fret.
Todo bien.

I’m also from New Mexico, and in a similar way the Pueblo Churches during Mass they tend to use their own pottery vessels for the offertory. They have permissions for the Archbishop to do so there as well, including their own ceremonial dancers who have blended their native culture with Catholic culture. The Franciscans converted most of the pueblos, and their parishes are all named for Franciscan saints.

When you attend Mass all over the world, you see that many cultures do things differently than we do it here in the States, and in Europe, even within the parameters of Liturgy and under direction of their Bishops.

Thank you for this explanation The Catholic Cathedral in downtown Dallas has a high Hispanic population. I go there sometimes for mass because of my work schedule sometimes and I always go there for the holy days of obligation that have to do with our blessed mother because the matachines always perform for those days. I love how they have honor our Lord and his mother through their dance performance.

 

[pianistclare]

The point of the OP was to be critical and to harshly look upon something that eh knows nothing about. The fact that you are defending this shows that you also do not care to learn.

We’re in Georgia. This happens everywhere. The state he’s in is irrelevant.
But go ahead and defend the arrogance and prejudice.
No one is “off-topic”. It
s a lousy topic to begin with. Very unbecoming for a Catholic forum to attack people whose form of worship is unfamiliar.
Unsubscribing. Dusting my sandals off, as they advise.

 

[thequeen]

I think this thread has just jumped the shark.

With all due respect, you have been a Catholic for only 3 years and this tradition has been going on for many, many decades under many, many bishops and Popes in many places in Mexico and the USA. Don’t you think maybe you should just stop, and have some respect for the cultural traditions of other fervent Catholics?

Exactly. I mean really there is a reason we are the universal church which is what the word Catholic means. I love learning about how other cultures practice the faith and I think the people from Mexico have beautiful way of honoring our Blessed Mother.

 

[poche]

If there was an apparition during the late 30s in Germany and Nazis converted to Catholicism, would we be fine seeing dancers in Nazi Stormtrooper uniforms, swaztikas, and weaponry marching down the aisles merely because they profess to “love Mary” in their bodily movements?

I think the time since Aztecs were slaughtering innocent men, women, and children on tops of pyramids is playing into the acceptance of Aztec imagery. When the “Matachines” or “Concheros” have pyramids on their armor, I am reminded not of Mary, but of a blood-thirsty people. The notion that they converted should also be expressed in their turning away of certain aspects of their old lives. I would imagine a person who loves Mary, and as a result also loves Jesus, would want to free themselves of old-world practices that don’t express that love.

If the Nazis had converted in the 30s I think it would be very nice to see them marching in processions and maybe down the ailses.

 

[poche]

Here we go:

Festivities for Our Lady of Guadalupe use the green , red, and white colors of Mexico because she appeared in Mexico and it is primarily a Mexican devotion, Most countries in South America and Central America do not celebrate this feast.

The dancers are called Matachines. They dance in honor of Our Lady due to the fact that with her appearance, the human sacrifice in Mexico ceased. The costumes are colorful and the music very rhythmic, and varies from state to state in Mexico as to color and design.
Our Matachines practice for weeks and perform before the Mass in procession with a statue and the recitation of the Rosary. Then they arrive at the doors of the church and lead the Priest and the Altar servers and Deacons in the opening Procession,.They also dance and lead the Gift Bearers at Offertory.

The day generally begins with Las Mananitas…a song of morning to Our Lady. Breakfast, a re-enactment of the miracle and the story with teens acting out the entire thing. Then lunch, a rest, the Mass and Dancing in the evening concluding with a huge dinner, generally covered by all the Mexican restaurateurs int he area. They also pay for the hundreds of dozen roses in the Sanctuary. Each family also bring their own dozen roses for Our Lady.

It’s a huge celebration. One day. That’s it. Everything has to come down asap because it’s in Advent. In our Archdiocese we have a large immigrant population and the Archbishop is delighted with all the various festivities, even offering a travelling image of Our Lady of Guadalupe to visit each parish and Catholic school prior to Dec.12th.

Don’t fret.
Todo bien.

I’m also from New Mexico, and in a similar way the Pueblo Churches during Mass they tend to use their own pottery vessels for the offertory. They have permissions for the Archbishop to do so there as well, including their own ceremonial dancers who have blended their native culture with Catholic culture. The Franciscans converted most of the pueblos, and their parishes are all named for Franciscan saints.

When you attend Mass all over the world, you see that many cultures do things differently than we do it here in the States, and in Europe, even within the parameters of Liturgy and under direction of their Bishops.

I have always heard the dancers called danzantes.

 

[poche]

Mass is not a rock concert. Mass is not for entertainment. Mass is for worship. I know some may say that clapping at the end of mass is just a preference, but its also that sort of action in God’s House that exhibits the sort of mental assent that His House is a place of entertainment and enjoyment.

---

"Can. 1210 Only those things which serve the exercise or promotion of worship, piety, or religion are permitted in a sacred place; anything not consonant with the holiness of the place is forbidden. In an individual case, however, the ordinary can permit other uses which are not contrary to the holiness of the place.

Can. 1211 Sacred places are violated by gravely injurious actions done in them with scandal to the faithful, actions which, in the judgment of the local ordinary, are so grave and contrary to the holiness of the place that it is not permitted to carry on worship in them until the damage is repaired by a penitential rite according to the norm of the liturgical books."

---

I think if one steps away from the argument that “because there is a historical aspect to what is going on, then it is Holy”, and we take a look at what is actually being represented, then we can truly discern this.

The notion that people have been doing this for X years, so “respect them” is not persuasive. To discredit my understanding due to me being Catholic only X years is not persuasive either.

I don’t expect any civilization to deny who they are anymore than Jesus, the Apostles, or the Church does. We are not our sins. I understand the syncretism that the Aztecs underwent through their conversion-- they understood God in a certain way that non-Aztecs don’t. But to enter a Holy place representing Unholy things is sacrilegious.

Some people use wreathes and Christmas trees during advent and Christmas. These don’t have any place in the liturgy per se. They come from a pagan origin when the pagans worshiped evergreens as representations of eternal life. They were adopted by the Church form those people.

 

[poche]

Correct.

Actually this Coatsulupe thing is really a connection to Genesis 3:15

 

[poche]

The bulk of this thread has been a series of appeals to authority, non-sequitur, and ad hominem. Ultimately, I don’t have to go to a 4 am Mass, but if I choose to do so then I would like to understand what is going on more. As to why in July I am bringing this up on this forum is not something you know. Alluding to some deeper concern as being the basis for my questions/critique is uncharitable.

Granted, some view my form of critique to be uncharitable. However, I do not mean to insult or delegitimize a holy form of prayer/veneration to Mary. I merely seek to call into question the symbolism and history I see displayed-- to any non-Mexican, it is quite shocking as some have already stated in this thread. The fact that it is a 500 year old tradition at this point does not make it a closed discussion as to whether or not it is proper-- the condemnation of Santa Muerte for instance. Before you condemn me for bringing that up, I know they aren’t the same but they do share common roots.

I came from a baptist church seeking the liturgical nature of the Catholic Church as well as the structure and authority it has been gifted. Coming from pure entertainment to Catholicism has been a relief and has given me a feeling of finally being home with God. My one experience was enough to make it a mission to understand it more for the sake of my wife and so I don’t mischaracterize a specific way of veneration.

I am still not convinced, but maybe more can chime in. I don’t want others to view my intentions as hostile. I want the truth, so I am giving my best critique of it in order to get the best answers for me.

It is ok to not know everything.