Feature - Morricone on the good, the bad and the ugly in church music [CN-USA]

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“Today the Church has made a big mistake, turning the clock back 500years with guitars and popular songs,” he argues. “I don’t like it atall. Gregorian Chant is a vital and important tradition of the Churchand to waste this by having kids mix religious words with profane,Western songs is hugely grave, hugely grave.”- Spaghetti western and The Mission composer Ennio Morricone talks to Edward Pentin @ ZENIT

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Catholic_Press said:
“Today the Church has made a big mistake, turning the clock back 500years with guitars and popular songs,” he argues. “I don’t like it atall. Gregorian Chant is a vital and important tradition of the Churchand to waste this by having kids mix religious words with profane,Western songs is hugely grave, hugely grave.”- Spaghetti western and The Mission composer Ennio Morricone talks to Edward Pentin @ ZENIT

More…
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And how long has this been going on for–at least 40 some years by my count. Perhaps with Benedict XVI and his liturgical sensibilities, he is probably the first pope since Vatican II that gives any hope for a return to dignity at mass whether it be music, cleaning up the text translations, alternatives to novus ordo banalities (Tridentine Rite). My only hope is that these things move along as fast as possible considering the pope’s advanced age.
 
I must firmly disagree with this article “Morricone on the good, the bad and the ugly in church music.” How can a man who has produced music for violent and sexually explicit films make comments on the quality and the intent of the music at mass. Many of the musicians at the mass are unpaid volunteers, some with out music skills or training, but they are participating in the mass as best they can. They do not have the financial means or resources that Morricne has to produce music. All areas of time have produced music for that era to fit within the sacred liturgy of that time, and it may not be perfect but they tried. Participation is what we need with an understanding of God and love for each other. I have volunteered for years and it is tough being a choir director. We do the best we can with out people coming in and telling us we need music at the caliber of a symphony. Mr. Morricone has made, I presume allot of money off his movies maybe he can donate some of that to Catholic answers.
 
rprench said:
I must firmly disagree with this article “Morricone on the good, the bad and the ugly in church music.” How can a man who has produced music for violent and sexually explicit films make comments on the quality and the intent of the music at mass. Many of the musicians at the mass are unpaid volunteers, some with out music skills or training, but they are participating in the mass as best they can. They do not have the financial means or resources that Morricne has to produce music. All areas of time have produced music for that era to fit within the sacred liturgy of that time, and it may not be perfect but they tried. Participation is what we need with an understanding of God and love for each other. I have volunteered for years and it is tough being a choir director. We do the best we can with out people coming in and telling us we need music at the caliber of a symphony. Mr. Morricone has made, I presume allot of money off his movies maybe he can donate some of that to Catholic answers.
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I disagree with you. Church music does not conform to the world, nor should it. We don’t need the banalities of popular music in our liturgy. During the middle ages they didn’t drag in lutes or recorders, even though that’s what was popular at the time.

You don’t need to have a highly advanced symphony orchestra and professional choir to sing Gregorian Chant. In fact, that is what Gregorian Chant is made for. You will notice the very few skips or leaps, which makes it very easy to follow along, and it is beautiful at the same time. Way more beautiful than the banal folk guitars and pianos which plague masses today. They’ve used chant for nearly 2000 years, and there is no reason whatsoever that we need to abandon it now.
 
rprench said:
I must firmly disagree with this article “Morricone on the good, the bad and the ugly in church music.” How can a man who has produced music for violent and sexually explicit films make comments on the quality and the intent of the music at mass. Many of the musicians at the mass are unpaid volunteers, some with out music skills or training, but they are participating in the mass as best they can. They do not have the financial means or resources that Morricne has to produce music. All areas of time have produced music for that era to fit within the sacred liturgy of that time, and it may not be perfect but they tried. Participation is what we need with an understanding of God and love for each other. I have volunteered for years and it is tough being a choir director. We do the best we can with out people coming in and telling us we need music at the caliber of a symphony. Mr. Morricone has made, I presume allot of money off his movies maybe he can donate some of that to Catholic answers.
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He wrote the music for at least two good Catholic films, namely “The Mission” and “The Scarlet and the Black”
 
I agree with Morricone. We need to bring back Gregorian Chant and keep a lot more of it in the Mass.
 
VeronicaAnne said:
At least it’s been a long time when the entrance song for Mass was

Morning Has Broken, by Cat Stevens

Yes, it’s a beautiful song. But it’s not liturgical.
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Cat Stevens, now Yousef ?? something, stole the old Gaelic melody “Bunessan” and claimed it as his own. This has always irritated me, since so many people think this is his original.

I think the tune is simple yet lovely and would rather sing it any day over a variety of the poorly written so called liturgical music being cranked out by the St. Louis Jesuits, Westin Priory, Oregon Press, etc. Go to most any Catholic churches and song books practically all fall open to “On Eagle’s Wings”–blech!
 
Got back from singing in a schola a few hours ago. It’s criminal that more Catholics cannot experience chant as part of their normal Sunday worship. As a ‘newbie’, I find there’s something different every Sunday, as well as the old faithfuls: the ‘Agnes Dei’, ‘Credo’, ‘Gloria’. I’m never bored, unlike when i was attending the Novus Ordo.

**When I see those good men and boys in the sanctuary in their vestments and hear my fellow amateur choristers sing something like the ‘Asperges’, with the sun glowing through the rose window, I’m reminded of an internet meme, which in this context would go like this:

‘The Roman Catholic Mass; yer doin’ it right’.**
 
elgar said:
Cat Stevens, now Yousef ?? something, stole the old Gaelic melody “Bunessan” and claimed it as his own. This has always irritated me, since so many people think this is his original.

I think the tune is simple yet lovely and would rather sing it any day over a variety of the poorly written so called liturgical music being cranked out by the St. Louis Jesuits, Westin Priory, Oregon Press, etc. Go to most any Catholic churches and song books practically all fall open to “On Eagle’s Wings”–blech!
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Argh! They sang that for the offertory this morning. Notice that I said “they.” Not “we.” I sat there with my mouth shut and prayed mentally.

DaveBj
 
There is allot of beautiful music in the world and many of it can be played or sung well. It depends on the training, skills given by God, the desire to do it well, and how present God is in your life. I love to go to mass with my family, but I will not take my children or my family to a mass with poor musical intent. That can be in folk music, chant, or organ with or with out a choir. I have a responsibility given tome by God to teach my children about the mass and what it means. I have heard many a simple mass with guitar and enjoyed the reverence and time that they put into that mass. I heard a single vocalist and enjoyed that too. I have heard a children’s choir and enjoyed the reverence and the participation it stimulated in my children. I love chant. I rarely have heard in my 52 years a good organ mass with choir. The resources to train a rural choir are not there for organ.
I here folks lamenting the past, but I remember the past and I look forward to the future. I see beauty in the church music of today. Sometimes it is not perfect, but we are not perfect and God knows this, which is why he sent his son.
A wise priest once told me that many people go to mass on the outside of the circle, and forget to look on the inside of the circle (Jesus). We want the old days, we want the new days, we wish Joe did not dress that way or Ann, we think the priest homely is to long or short, we wish they could paint the church a different color, we want organ, we want guitar, we chant etc. etc. etc. The real reason we are there is Jesus. We are not purfect and the music never will be. We can attempt to try
 
rprench said:
There is allot of beautiful music in the world and many of it can be played or sung well.

I here folks lamenting the past, but I remember the past and I look forward to the future. I see beauty in the church music of today. Sometimes it is not perfect, but we are not perfect and God knows this, which is why he sent his son.

We want the old days, we want the new days, we wish Joe did not dress that way or Ann, we think the priest homely is to long or short, we wish they could paint the church a different color, we want organ, we want guitar, we chant etc. etc. etc. The real reason we are there is Jesus. We are not purfect and the music never will be. We can attempt to try
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AMEN!

For all those that wish for the “good old days” of Gregorian Chant, which originated during the Middle Ages, what did they use for music before that? Did St. Paul use music in his liturgy? What about the rest of the Church Fathers? When Gregorian Chant was introduced, I’m sure it must have been “new” to many listeners, who then started to complain about missing the “old music” (whatever that was). I think that the quote really gets to the point of this; i.e., the “real reason we are there (at Mass) is Jesus”. 👍
 
So because they didn’t have Gregorian chant in the early days of our religion, that somehow invalidates or diminishes its use now? Or is an excuse to abandon it?

The real reason we are at Mass is to propriate God. This, I submit, should be accomplished by a rite as opulent, reverential and as glorious as our resources allow. Chant is part of that. Dropping it for "Bind Us Together’ and its ilk is at once lazy, misguided and meddlesome.

**Modern, minimalist, democratic, anti-clericalist, anti-Romanist Masses, if left to develop as-is, will lead to a presider, lecturing the congregation, in a bare room:

i.e. an Islamic or Puritan style service. **

And I think some people will be very happy with that. Put some poor shmuck in a bare room, give him a book and then tell him to find God.
 
Dear Layman,
Boy that was a mouth full of fancy words. You must be one of those folks who sit in church and criticize the hard working volunteers. On a constructive note; why don’t you go back to school and learn chant, organ, choir, or get a degree and help out at mass with your new found college music degree. Spend some money and some time and train people to do the music you desire for mass. Most of the folks who criticize the things at mass are people who do not give of their time or money to help make things better. Who said anything about (“Or is an excuse to abandon it?”) abandoning chant??
Participate!!! Give!!! share!!! Care!!!
 
rprench said:
Dear Layman,
Boy that was a mouth full of fancy words. You must be one of those folks who sit in church and criticize the hard working volunteers. On a constructive note; why don’t you go back to school and learn chant, organ, choir, or get a degree and help out at mass with your new found college music degree. Spend some money and some time and train people to do the music you desire for mass. Most of the folks who criticize the things at mass are people who do not give of their time or money to help make things better. Who said anything about (“Or is an excuse to abandon it?”) abandoning chant??
Participate!!! Give!!! share!!! Care!!!
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Chant has been largely abandoned in Roman Catholic Masses. Also, I do sing in a schola (a Latin Mass choir).

There is a tendency for some people, I’ve gathered, to think that if only we could get back to something like the Last Supper, we’d have the perfect Mass. This implies that:
  • 1500+ years of the contributions of saints to the Mass can be happily done away with, or changed to suit current tastes;
  • Masses in the year 34 to 500 were somehow more authentic or better;
  • Excludes the fact that Jesus, God incarnate, was at the Last Supper. Now we have human priests acting ‘in persona Christi’;
  • Excludes the fact that we have to propitiate God at Mass also i.e. avert his wrath and gain his blessings.
Removing beautiful, ancient hymns makes no sense in light of this. Neither do a lot of the changes post Vat. II.

Catholic schools used to teach Latin. Children had Latin-English missals. There were taught the hymns. This meant the choir was as good as the locals could manage; the support structure was there. Now it isn’t and I submit we’re poorer for it.

I wonder how many Roman Catholic parishes could now, even if they wanted to, muster a Missa Cantata from the locals? You can destroy things quickly but building them up again can take a lot longer.

Still, the Church deals in decades and centuries. If people want it, it’ll happen. The great and terrible thing about God is that He tends to give you what you pray for, over time.
 
Layman said:
Catholic schools used to teach Latin. Children had Latin-English missals. There were taught the hymns. This meant the choir was as good as the locals could manage; the support structure was there. Now it isn’t and I submit we’re poorer for it.

I wonder how many Roman Catholic parishes could now, even if they wanted to, muster a Missa Cantata from the locals? You can destroy things quickly but building them up again can take a lot longer.

Still, the Church deals in decades and centuries. If people want it, it’ll happen. The great and terrible thing about God is that He tends to give you what you pray for, over time.
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Dear Layman:
Don’t get so “hyper”. We are NOT saying that Gregorian Chant should not be sung at Mass. We are only saying that there are other hymns, besides Gregorian Chant, that can be sung.

I remember the “old days” (Pre-Vatican II) and I used to be a “commentator” at Mass, giving the Latin responses of the congregration over a microphone. Even though everyone had an English-Latin Missal, very few chose to respond in the vernacular of the Mass at that time; i.e., Latin. Thus the need for a “commentator” to help provide a voice for the congregation.

I’ve also been in a choir that was given Latin hyms to sing. It wasn’t that difficult to pick up after a little practice.

In my area of the country (Texas), many parishes offer “Mariachi Masses” both for Spanish Language Masses as well as Bi-Lingual Masses. If you have not witnessed one, this singing can also be deeply moving and enhance the spiritual value of the Mass.

Gregorian Chant is fine, but it does not have to be the only music provided at Mass. 🙂

Many choirs, worth their salt, can sing a mixture of traditional and contemporary hymns, including Chant. 👍
 
Interesting. I’m glad to hear it could be done, if people wanted it.

The latter is the key thing; if the priest, or the prime movers on the parish council or whoever decides these things want it. Also assuming the Bishop is disposed.

I have an odd sense that even after the Motu Proprio a priest would have to be careful how he went about introducing the Latin Mass in his parish. Politics, I suppose(?)
 
Layman said:
Chant has been largely abandoned in Roman Catholic Masses. Also, I do sing in a schola (a Latin Mass choir).

There is a tendency for some people, I’ve gathered, to think that if only we could get back to something like the Last Supper, we’d have the perfect Mass. This implies that:
  • 1500+ years of the contributions of saints to the Mass can be happily done away with, or changed to suit current tastes;
  • Masses in the year 34 to 500 were somehow more authentic or better;
  • Excludes the fact that Jesus, God incarnate, was at the Last Supper. Now we have human priests acting ‘in persona Christi’;
  • Excludes the fact that we have to propitiate God at Mass also i.e. avert his wrath and gain his blessings.
Removing beautiful, ancient hymns makes no sense in light of this. Neither do a lot of the changes post Vat. II.

Catholic schools used to teach Latin. Children had Latin-English missals. There were taught the hymns. This meant the choir was as good as the locals could manage; the support structure was there. Now it isn’t and I submit we’re poorer for it.

I wonder how many Roman Catholic parishes could now, even if they wanted to, muster a Missa Cantata from the locals? You can destroy things quickly but building them up again can take a lot longer.

Still, the Church deals in decades and centuries. If people want it, it’ll happen. The great and terrible thing about God is that He tends to give you what you pray for, over time.
Click to expand...
What we are experiencing in so many places is part of the “dumbing down” which is so prevalent in our culture. We see it in our worship, school curricula, even the places we shop. I’m amazed at the number of cashiers who don’t have a clue on making change on a purchase without the register telling them.

Returning to choirs singing Gregorian Chant is a good start and really basic. That shouldn’t mean chant exclusively and no polyphony. There is a place for quality and appropriate music and text anytime when we worship the Lord.

As far complaining too much and not offering one’s services as organist, cantor, teacher, it’s not always a matter of just coming forward. As a trained musician with much experience and I happen to know if a piece is singable or not just by looking at the composition. If the rhythm is funky, there is a good chance it was written by someone who was not trained in music. In the end, participation at Catholic Mass from the congregation is abysmal. It might help if real tried and true leadership were allowed–and yes, Fr. may have to pay the bucks to achieve this.
 
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