Feedback on my “breathlessly false claims” about Mary’s “Dormition” [Fr. Z]

[adstrinity]

And so we have the Church’s teaching. The priest in the original post was right to be suprised at the vigor of objections. Catholics simply are not required to believe that Mary died, only that she was assumed into heaven at the end of her earthly life. Next we are going to be arguing over what kind of dance the angels dance when they dance on the head of a pin.

Actually, according to the book, “Ledgend, Lies, & Cherished Myths of World History,” the arguement isn’t, “How many angels can dance on the head of a pin,” but, “Do angels deficate.” …Oh…I just kinda proved your point, didn’t I? You were being rhetorical…I’ll come back when I have something on topic to contribute…

 

[Taboric_Light]

The Dormition of the Holy Theotokos is not to be compared to angels dancing on pins or deficating. This issue has brought up a very serious topic. If the Magisterium hasn’t extraordinarily infallibly decreed something does it mean that it is a theologoumenon, or worse reduced to the insanity of questioning whether angels deficate or not? Pope John Paul the Great did not decree excathedra that women cannot be priest. Nor has the same been done in regards to abortion. The Church did not extraordinarily decree the divinity or humanity of Christ until hundreds of years after the birth of the Church. Before these councils was the divinity and humanity of Christ a theologoumenon, people being free to think whatever they want? What about the Eucharist? Before the divinity/humanity of Christ and transubstantiation were infallibly decreed by an ecumenical council were they as small a think as angels dancing and deficating? What about the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption of our Holy Mother?

The content of the Deposit of Faith is not added to by the Magisterium nor is the Deposit of Faith like a cafeteria from which we can pick and choose what we want to believe. The Deposit of Faith has been, is now, and will be complete since the beginning and we must adhere to all that is part of the Deposit of Faith. How do we know what is part of the Deposit of Faith? Are only those things that have been decreed by an ecumenical council or by an excathedra proclamation known to be a part of the Deposit of Faith? No! God forbid! What a poor faith we would have and poorest of all the Apostles since they lived three hundred years before the first ecumenical council. We know the content of the Deposit of Faith because it is that which has been revealed in Sacred Tradition and Scripture, which have been proclaimed, taught, and guarded by the Holy Magisterium.

Concerning the Dormition, when one looks at Sacred Tradition, which includes the writings of the Fathers and Saints, iconography, magisterial documents, and, above all, liturgy the truth of the Dormition is crystal clear. It wasn’t until the 17th century that this truth of the faith was ever questioned and then only because of an incorrect theological understanding of the Immaculate Conception. As someone wiser than me said, “to deny the Dormition is to undermine the Assumption.”

In Christ through Mary

 

[pnewton]

I’ll come back when I have something on topic to contribute…

The Church has not defined it. Catholics are open to believe what they want. It has no bearing on salvation. It has no bearing on anything that I can see except a useless point of division between some eastern and some western Catholics. The gnat that is being strained in this argument is whether Mary died, slept, was comatose, etc., before she was assumed.

The camel that is being swallowed is disunity.

 

[Aramis]

Keep in mind: Doctrine, not being universally required, can and does vary from Sui Iuris Church to Sui Iuris Church. No one may openly deny their home church’s Doctrine, nor may one teach others in contravention to Doctrine.

But Doctrine is not required to be believed. Just given assent of will…

 

[Debora]

Sometimes reading all of these comments gives me a headache.

I was born Roman Catholic and currently I am studding to be an Eastern Italo-Greek Catholic. I see so much beauty in both “lungs” of the Church. I really do not see a clear argument in this issue, and feel that sometimes, with all due respect, some folks just like to argue for the sake of arguing.

Maybe I am not as esteemed as my fellow Catholics but when I read the Catechism, I believe that it is telling me that Mary was joined with Jesus and taken up into heaven in both body and soul. (Please read my earlier post on this subject for the Catechism references.) Therefore if she was in an earthly death or sleep, when she was taken up to heaven, she was honored in a way none of us will ever be. Her corporal body was not left behind to rot and decay. A great honor and gift from her Son! I was taught as a child that Mary was consumed into heaven body and soul and did not die in the sense that the rest of us would.

Other research that I have conducted indicates that the term Dormition was first used by all Catholics and Christians and later the term Assumption which in Latin comes from assumere, “to take up.”

Pope Pius XII in 1950, defined the Assumption as an article of faith and was first commemorated as the Feast of the Dormition (falling asleep) of Mary, in the 6th century. The feast later developed into the Feast of the Assumption, celebrated in the Roman Catholic Church.

God Bless All of You! D.

 

[Taboric_Light]

Debora,

It’s true, “some folks just like to argue for the sake of arguing.” There are things of which Catholics may believe whatever they want: “Would their have been in Incarnation if there had been no Fall?” (I consider that on of the more relevant ones), “What exactly did Adam and Eve do to commit the first sin?” etc. etc. However, there are some things like the doctrine of the Dormition or the doctrine of the Co-Redemptrix that bring up the extremely relevant question of what exactly must Catholics adhere to. It is this question, not the Dormition, that is the primary topic of debate on this particular thread.

Earlier, one person said, “The Church has not defined it. Catholics are open to believe what they want.” Apparently if the Church hasn’t “defined” something by some extraordinary act of the Magisterium (ecumenical council, excathedra proclamation) we can believe whatever we want. By this line of thought it was okay to believe that Jesus wasn’t the same God as the Father before homoousius was defined in 325. Again, it was okay to believe that the Holy Spirit wasn’t God before the Council of Constantinople decreed that He “proceeded from the Father” in 381. Now say this for every single dogma of the Church that has been decreed (defined if your a Westerner) by an ecumenical council or by a pope speaking excathedra. In addition, one could believe whatever they wanted about something like abortion because the Church hasn’t dogmatically “defined” it. This is, of course, ridiculous, and the Church would be poor indeed if this were the case.

How do we know which doctrines not decreed in an extraordinary manner are to be adhered to? By their clear consistent teaching and living by the Holy Church. The Dormition is a very good example of this. The fact that the Dormition has been revealed to us and, therefore, is part of the Deposit of Faith is absolutely clear. When one looks at Sacred Tradition (the Fathers, Saints, iconography in the East, sacred art in the West, both Western and Eastern liturgy, magisterial documents) there is no doubt that this is part of the faith given to the Church.

Is one a heretic if they do not believe in the Dormition? No. But if one has been presented the evidence from Sacred Tradition and opposes themselves to it then they are most certainly in a heretical spirit, which is not to be taken lightly and is definitely not arguing just for the sake of arguing. And should it give you a headache? Oh yeah, it should; I have one too.

In Christ through Mary

 

[pnewton]

From the AAA forum:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=3212&highlight=dormition

 

[Taboric_Light]

Again, we return to the question of whether or not we must adhere to a particular teaching of the faith if the Church has not decreed it in an extraordinary way. Michelle Arnold said, “the Church has not made a decision on the matter.” If the “not making a decision” means “hasn’t decreed it in an extraordinary matter” then Ms. Arnold is most certainly correct. However, just because the Church has not pronounced an extraordinary decree does not mean that the Church hasn’t made a decision on the matter. Before Nicaea I had the Church not made a decision about the divinity of the Son. Of course the Church had. At Nicaea I the Church upheld and made more explicit what She had also held and taught, that the Son, Jesus Christ, is fully divine and God just as the Father is God. Has the Church dogmatically proclaimed the Dormition of the Holy Theotokos? No, of course not. But that does not mean that the Church has not taught throughout Her history this beautiful doctrine.

Once again, someone is not a heretic for not believing that the Holy Theotokos died, however, if the evidence from Sacred Tradition has been adequately shown to them and they oppose themselves to divinely revealed Tradition then they are in a heretical spirit.

Our late holy father spoke about the Dormition in one of his Wednesday audiences. I’ll look it up and post a link to it.

In Christ through Mary

 

[pnewton]

Again, we return to the question of whether or not we must adhere to a particular teaching of the faith if the Church has not decreed it in an extraordinary way.

Does the Catechism declare one way or another? That is our sure norm of what doctrine we should believe, declared extraordinary or not.

 

[Formosus]

Does the Catechism declare one way or another? That is our sure norm of what doctrine we should believe, declared extraordinary or not.

The Catechism is not a magisterial source though. It quotes the magisterial sources in order to present Catholics with an easy access to the basics of orthodox belief, but there is far far far more to it then just the Catechism. The Liturgy is a major part of the Magisterium, (The law of prayer is the law of belief). Since the Liturgy throughout the ages has stated that the Blessed Theotokos suffered death before being raised body and soul into heaven, then that is part of the magisterium.

 

[pnewton]

Since the Liturgy throughout the ages has stated that the Blessed Theotokos suffered death before being raised body and soul into heaven, then that is part of the magisterium.

Really, I never heard that. Are all Masses supposed to mention it in all Rites. I know that the CCC is our norm for teaching, as it is illogical and unrealistic to expect the Catholic faithful to read every Church document. That is why we have a catechism. I take it then that the teaching that Mary died is not in the Catechism? I ask because you did not answer the first post but weny on about the liturgy.

 

[jimmy]

Really, I never heard that. Are all Masses supposed to mention it in all Rites. I know that the CCC is our norm for teaching, as it is illogical and unrealistic to expect the Catholic faithful to read every Church document. That is why we have a catechism. I take it then that the teaching that Mary died is not in the Catechism? I ask because you did not answer the first post but weny on about the liturgy.

It is irrelevant whether it is in the Catechism. There are many things that are not in the Catechism which are the norms of faith.

The liturgy, as Formosus mentioned, is the norm of faith. And as Eastern Catholics, the liturgy is our Catechism(much more so than the CCC). The fact that Mary’s death(the Dormition of Mary celebrated on the 15th) is part of a feast in the Eastern Churches means that it is part of the faith. It is not something that can simply be ignored. It is the faith we celebrate.

 

[pnewton]

It is irrelevant whether it is in the Catechism. There are many things that are not in the Catechism which are the norms of faith.

For you perhaps, but not for most Catholics. It is a gift to the Church and our norm of Catholic teaching. Is everything in it? No, but it is such a wealth of information, I can never accept as doctrine I must believe something that is not included in it, and which I have heard over and over from many apologists, is an optional belief. Pretty much everything posted here is subject to being opinion, whereas we have the Catechism as a solid teaching tool.

The death of Mary does not seem to rise to the level of doctrine despite the desire for those that consider it important wish it would. If it is so important and if it is a true doctrine defined through the Magisterium, then why is it not in the Catechism.

 

[jimmy]

For you perhaps, but not for most Catholics. It is a gift to the Church and our norm of Catholic teaching. Is everything in it? No, but it is such a wealth of information, I can never accept as doctrine I must believe something that is not included in it, and which I have heard over and over from many apologists, is an optional belief. Pretty much everything posted here is subject to being opinion, whereas we have the Catechism as a solid teaching tool.

The death of Mary does not seem to rise to the level of doctrine despite the desire for those that consider it important wish it would. If it is so important and if it is a true doctrine defined through the Magisterium, then why is it not in the Catechism.

Is the CCC above the liturgy? What is more important, the sacrifice of Christ or the CCC? The heavenly worship of God or the CCC? The liturgy is not simply some random statement sometime in the past, it is our way of life. It is our faith. If I read the CCC but never attend the liturgy I have learned nothing about the faith or about God. The fact that the liturgy includes it makes it dogma whether the CCC also includes it or not. What the inclusion of it in the liturgy basically says is, this is what the Church believes and this is what we rejoice over. On Aug.15 is celebrated the falling asleep(or death) of Mary and the accompanying assumption. Before that we fast due to the great solemnity of it and on the day of the feast we celebrate. It is not simply the wim of a certain priest or parish. It is a matter that was determined through the guidance of the Holy Spirit in the Church which(the dormition) also might have been affirmed by many councils.

The CCC is a good guide but as you admitted it does not include everything. You must also attend the liturgy and live the life to understand the faith.

 

[pnewton]

Is the CCC above the liturgy? What is more important, the sacrifice of Christ or the CCC? The heavenly worship of God or the CCC?

Yes, but if you will quite begging the question for half a second, perhaps you might scroll up to where I asked why I have never heard this in the Mass? I have never, ever, ever heard this at Mass. When in the liturgy is this mentioned? And again, (whew) do all rites mention this? It has already been established that opinion on this varies between rites.

And while I am at it, lest you continue to muddy the water, we are not discussing worship of God, but some point of considerably less relevance than worship of the almighty God. I could jump on the same high horse and ask everyone here why they care so much about swaying others to an opinion not defined as relevant by the Church, instead of worshipping God. But do you see how silly that sounds. Then re-read your first couple of sentences and it sounds the same.

 

[Aramis]

Remember: The CCC is properly the Roman Catechism.

The Ukrainians are working on their own, and the Maronites have a semi-official one.

 

[Formosus]

Really, I never heard that. Are all Masses supposed to mention it in all Rites. I know that the CCC is our norm for teaching, as it is illogical and unrealistic to expect the Catholic faithful to read every Church document. That is why we have a catechism. I take it then that the teaching that Mary died is not in the Catechism? I ask because you did not answer the first post but weny on about the liturgy.

It is the Latin tradition before the last few hunderd years that she died. At one point Latins celebrated the Assumption under the title “Dormition” as well. Also , as mentioned earlier the old Roman Office specifically states that she died. The Liturgy of the Church IS part of the Magisterium and as I pointed out, the CCC is a collection of quotes from documents, it is not all the relevant information but merely the bare bones minimum.

 

[Taboric_Light]

From CCC #966:

“The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin is a singular participation in her Son’s Resurrection and an anticipation of the resurrection of other Christians: In giving birth you kept your virginity; in your Dormition (my emphasis) you did not leave the world, O Mother of God, but were joined to the source of Life.”

Concerning the Catechism and the liturgy, the CCC is not above the Church’s liturgy. Is Christ substantially present in the Catechism? No, but He most certainly is in the Sacrifice of the Altar. Does the Holy Spirit dwell within us and fills us with Trinitarian life by the words of the Catechism? No, He does this through the sacraments which are liturgical. Do we partake of the one Body of Christ by reading the Catechism? No, we do this by receiving His Body and Blood in the Eucharist. The Catechism is where we read about the faith of the Church. The liturgy is where we live the faith of the Church; where we partake of the divine nature; where we are mystically united in one body; and where heaven and earth are one.

We do not place a book above our worship. We do not place a “reference text” (JPII, Fidei Depositum) above our true and real communion with God. I do not want to seem to put an opposition between the two; there is no opposition; you will not find a contradiction between the two, but one does effect our life in Christ while the other does not. Is the liturgy normative for belief? Oh, yes. Always remember lex orandi, lex credendi. Notice it isn’t the other way around.

There are also some things from the liturgy which I do have, but I will post them later.

In Christ through Mary

 

[Taboric_Light]

I have never, ever, ever heard this at Mass. When in the liturgy is this mentioned?

I’ll have to check my Daily Roman Missal later to see if there is anything on the solemnity of the Assumption that mentions the Dormition of the Holy Theotokos. If there is than the reason you don’t remember hearing it is because it would be heard only once a year during Mass.

However, there is more to liturgy than the Mass alone. In the Saturday vespers from the Little Office of the Blessed Virgin Mary the second reading is from “a homily on the falling asleep [dormition] of the Blessed Virgin Mary by Saint Germanus of Constantinople.” St. Germanus says and we pray:

"Indeed you left our earth to prove that the mystery of the awe-inspiring incarnation was really fulfilled. The fact that you waited for the natural end of human life would convince the world that the God who was born of you came into being also as perfect man, the Son of a true Mother, who was subject to the laws and constraints of nature, by divine decree and the requirement of an earthly lifetime. As one who possessed a human body you could not escape death, the common fate of humanity.

Thus even your Son, though God of all things, even he, through sharing, so to speak, the mortality of all our race, tasted a similiar bodily death. It was clearly in the same way as he made his own life-giving tomb that he made your sepulcher wonderful also, as the tomb of your falling asleep, a tomb which received life; therefore both tombs really received your bodies, but could in no way affect them with corruption. For nor could you, as the vessel which contained God, waste away to dust in the destruction of death…

In this way, then, you suffered the death of finite beings and the translation to the immortal way of life of eternal beings where God dwells…" (The bold is my emphasis and the italics are the emphasis in the text).

An alternate reading for that day is from "the apostolic constitution Munificentissimus Deus by Pope Pius XII. He says and we pray:

“Thus, she gained at last the supreme crown of her privileges - to be preserved immune from the corruption of the tomb, and, like her Son, when death had been conquered, to be carred up body and soul to the exalted glory of heaven…”

Some, however, may thing that the “Little Office” is too obscure. The second reading from the “Office of Readings” for the solemnity of the Assumption in the Liturgy of the Hours is also from Pope Pius XII’s Munificentissimus Deus. For brevity’s sake (this is already very long) I will not quote in whole. :extrahappy:

He says, “what is commemorated in this feast is not simply the total absence of corruption from the dead body of the Blessed Virgin Mary but also her triumph over death and her glorification in heaven…”

He quotes St. John Damascene saying, “It was necessary that she who had preserved her virginity inviolate in childbirth should also have her body kept free from all corruption after death.”

He quotes “another early author” saying, “she is enlivened by him to share an eternal incorruptibility of body with him who raised her from the tomb and took her up to himself…”

Okay, there it is; first the Catechism and now the liturgy.

In Christ through Mary

 

[pnewton]

Thanks for the information and for the time compiling it. I stated earlier that I believed it was appropriate that she died and it is my opinion that she did. My objection has always been exactly the same objection of Fr. Zuhlsdorf. His statement mirrors so many others in authority that I have heard, including the staff here, I just don’t understand the fervor with which the one reader wrote him.

I am sorry if I sidetracked back to the original topic, but I just wanted to add some perspective to my last few posts here and point to at least one priest that agrees with me.