Feel disillusioned with traditional Catholicism

[Abigail]

stmaria:

I don’t understand what you mean by “Traditionalist bashing.” I, for one, pray for everyone and wish them well - I am not trying to hurt those traditionalists who promote views which are not Catholic or a misinterpretation of Catholic teaching. But I want to support lucybeebee by assuring her that she is not alone in her perceptions that SOME traditionalists adopt attitudes and practices which are not understood by other Catholics, and which can very confusing and unsettling. Indeed, enough traditionalists adopt these views that there is an identifiable “traditionalist” culture, and this has been pointed out to me by many who do not attend the TLM. This is merely an observation, not an attempt to hurt (bash) others.

SOME traditionalists are trying to escape from a world they find too evil and confusing. SOME have mysogynistic views, don’t believe women should vote or interact outside the home, adopt extreme dress, refuse to interact with people of other religions or beliefs, confuse their religion with their politics, etc. And SOME of them can be quite confrontational and hostile toward those who don’t believe as they do - I know, because I’ve been the target of such hostility. Rather than ignore the effect these behaviors have on others who are interested in the TLM, I think traditionalists have a duty to take a good, hard look at whether they radiate the love of God to ALL the people they meet. Unfortunately, one bad experience is enough to drive most well-meaning people away from the TLM.

Again, please don’t mistake my motivation here. I realize that many of the people I’ve described are either ignorant of Catholic teaching in some matters, or aren’t aware of the impression they leave on others. I am not saying any of these things to insult them, and I am not trying to hurt them.

 

[GerardP]

For the past month or so, I’ve been feeling very disillusioned with traditional Catholicism. Or maybe a better way of putting it is that I’m disillusioned with the people in traditional Catholicism.

lucybeebee,

A month is a very short amount of time. What were your expectations going in? To be disillusioned means you were seeing an illusion before and it’s no longer there. You might have a couple of layers and your current perceptions might be part of an illusion.

The FSSP parish that I’ve been attending is being torn apart by disunity for about the last eight months or so.

Wherever you find Catholics, you are going to find a fight. There are plenty of heretical Novus Ordo parishes where everyone is saying the right thing and doing the right things politically speaking. Unfortunately, they are just not doing a good job of saving souls.

While I’d rather not get into the details, some parishioners, a good many of them affliated with the SSPX, have been causing trouble for the parish.

Why do you bring up the SSPX? What do you mean “affiliated”?
It could be that there are doctrinal problems at the parish and the SSPX affiliated people are bringing it to the fore.

Consequently, the FSSP is wearing out its welcome with the archdiocese (which isn’t too wild about the TLM anyway) and the order may be dismissed and the parish turned into a NO one.

Then the larger problem is with the archdiocese. It is schismatic if it tries to deny the patrimony of the Church.

Second, I’m also feeling uncomfortable with some of the rhetoric coming from some traditional Catholics. Among some traditionalists, there seems to be a tendency to embrace questionable ideas such as “Lost Cause” Confederate mythology and slavery (I recall reading one memorable post on a blog that discussed the practicalities of how slavery could be reinstated).

What arguments are they making?

As a black person, I find myself very uncomfortable with this. I was particularly disturbed by the invective directed towards Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. Regardless of what one thinks about him as a person, I don’t see how one can deny that he made a real difference in racial relations and was a significant person in American history.

Was the invective directed against his person? Or his influence? What invective was it? From what I have seen, most prominent modern black leaders (Jackson, Sharpton et al) have made a mockery of Dr. King’s “content of character over the color of skin” and instead have usurped his name for evil purposes.

One would have to weigh the damage done in his name by those who hijacked his legacy against his real legacy. Perhaps that is what some were trying to express.

Try to think that people are more charitable and express themselves badly.

I remember a fella asking for the intention to “defeat a bill in Congress that would make it illegal to make fun of homosexuals”

He didn’t want “hate crimes” legislation passed to prevent Catholics from spreading the truth about the sinful nature of homosexuality.

I also know he did not mean that “Catholics have the right and desire to make fun of homosexuals.”

It would be like dismissing the work of the Founding Fathers because they owned slaves (and believe me, many people do).

Dismissing is one thing. Critiqueing is another. Too many people think the Founding Fathers had the same Divine inspiration that the Church was given.

Our Lord said to judge a tree by its fruits, and quite frankly the fruits from traditional Catholicism aren’t looking too good to me right now.

I think your perspective is quite limited at this point. Learn the faith and live it, let the chips fall where they may.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not going to become Protestant or run to a charismatic parish or anything like that. But I’m finding going to my parish to be a miserable experience these days and I’m assailed with doubt and anxiety.

I don’t understand this. I go to the TLM, I attend Mass, I sit in silent prayer, I go to confession and most of the time, I smile, say “Hi” to a few people and go home. Controversies and disputes rarely happen at the SSPX chapel or Indults I’ve been to. And people often float harmlessly between the SSPX and the nearest TLM parishes. The invective usually comes from the regular parishes towards the SSPX from my experience.

Conversely many priests are quietly sympathetic and get help and help the SSPX.

What are you doing that is exposing your person to all of this non-Liturgical, non-essential elements? I honestly don’t think you’ve gathered all of the facts or seen it in it’s proper perspective.

 

[mschrank]

I want to apologize for some of my comments on this thread, after taking my lunch break and re-reading some of what I wrote I am sorry if I unintentionally passed judgement on what people get out of the Mass and why they go. I guess its wrong to say that some people’s faith is less than mine or they do not understand it in the way I do.

I should of just said what the other poster said, there are bad apples everywhere and the TLM just has its own brand, but instead I made a statement that some people might think is a veiled insult towards all TLM-goers.

 

[pnewton]

In starting this thread, it wasn’t my intention to bash traditional Catholics. Obviously, in any group of people you’ll find the good, the bad, and the ugly.

Don’y worry about it. Your intentions were clear and your sincerity speaks well of you. We all know that traditionlists are not charaterized by racism or the other problems you mentioned. It is simply a matter of what problems exist at this particular parish. That is why advice needs to come from someone more fully informed in all the details.

BTW - I think people that bash MLK just show their ignorance. I’m as white as bread and I recognize that his contributions to our society were of great important. I think a lot of times he gets a bad rap because people view him through the filter of some politicians today. Hah! There was only one Reverend King and no one today holds a candle to him.

 

[368ofk]

I want to apologize for some of my comments on this thread, …

Wow.

For what it’s worth, as one who took offense to your previous comments, I appreciate this apology.

Many who adore the Traditional Mass are sensitive to such comments, since we have been relegated to second-class citizens in the eyes of our own Church for nearly two generations now.

Regardless of the fact that the TLM is gaining popularity, and despite the efforts of our current Pope to erode the divisions, it’s going to take time.

So, I thank you.

 

[VARC]

Ironically the Confederacy that some of them admire was the work of a Luciferian secret society, the Knights of the Golden Circle.
.

I don’t know what’s up with the Confederacy bashing. Pius IX was on the side of Davis. Was he in on the satanic conspiracy?

 

[pprimeau1976]

And then there are the conspiracy theorists – the world is being taken over by the Masons, or the One World Government, or satanists, or secularists, or whatever, and they have to hunker down in their bunkers because the end times have come…

If the end times were coming, they shouldn’t be hiding like the Apostles did after the crucifixion. The Holy Spirit has been given to us, so it would be a time to go out an let our light shine. I knew of a “locutionist” in Rochester, NY who advocated hiding when the end times came.

There is more than just a sprinkling of these people among traditionalists. That being said, I vote with those who refuse to give up the field to the ignorant, unbalanced or mean-spirited. I believe Satan uses these people to cast doubts on the TLM and drive people away from it.

You have a very good point.

 

[jj2011]

I don’t know what’s up with the Confederacy bashing. Pius IX was on the side of Davis. Was he in on the satanic conspiracy?

This subject deserves its own thread, but the links I already gave, particularly the one below, amply justify what I wrote. The secessionist movement was largely the work of a secret society called Knights of the Golden Circle; the purpose of this society was to take over the caribbean countries and turn them into Protestant ruled slave empires on the southern model.

Pius IX certainly did have friendly contacts with Davis, but Davis himself may not have been a member of the KGC during the war. Davis also IIRC had studied at a Catholic school and had indicated a certain sympathy for Catholicism. Pius IX had amicable diplomatic contacts with Davis, but there’s no evidence that this pope was aware of the evidence I’m giving here.
I should add that the KGC were active not only in the south but in the north as well. The most damning evidence about KGC actually came from southern white men, or men from border states like Kentucky; I could add specifics but this should probably be by PM or on another thread.

quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=moa;idno=ANY1772

 

[bear06]

You know, some of you really need to read what I write rather than listen to whatever flies into your head. Is english your first language?

“SOME PEOPLE…”

SOME.

How many is say, 2 out of 2000?

SOME.

Are you one of those “some” people? LOL.

Not a traditionalist but your discription is a little over the top. Yes, I’ve met divisive people at the EF and some just fine folks. That said, I’ve never met any that attend for the reason you describe. I think you’d be hard pressed to find 1 in 10,000.

 

[VARC]

This subject deserves its own thread, but the links I already gave, particularly the one below, amply justify what I wrote. The secessionist movement was largely the work of a secret society called Knights of the Golden Circle; the purpose of this society was to take over the caribbean countries and turn them into Protestant ruled slave empires on the southern model.

Pius IX certainly did have friendly contacts with Davis, but Davis himself may not have been a member of the KGC during the war. Davis also IIRC had studied at a Catholic school and had indicated a certain sympathy for Catholicism. Pius IX had amicable diplomatic contacts with Davis, but there’s no evidence that this pope was aware of the evidence I’m giving here.
I should add that the KGC were active not only in the south but in the north as well. The most damning evidence about KGC actually came from southern white men, or men from border states like Kentucky; I could add specifics but this should probably be by PM or on another thread.

quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=moa;idno=ANY1772

I read into the so call Knights of the Golden Circle. If the southern cause was satanic because of this tiny group then the American Revolutionary cause was satanic because it was inspired by masonic ideas too. So it seems, according to you, that this is a case of Satan fighting Satan.

Pius IX was well aware of the masonic ideas held in the South. But he was also aware of the masonic ideas that were dominant in the North. Because Pius IX saw that the masonic North was expansionary and the masoinic South wanted contained self rule, he recognized the South as the lesser of two evils among other reasons.

 

[universalindult]

Don’t worry. It doesn’t exist. This thread has turned into a Traditional bashing. If I posted the exact same thing over on Liturgy and Sacraments and accused those that go to the Ordinary Form of this, I would be banned.

 

[BlyssfulDreamer]

You prove my point I made above of why people feel self conscious. You cannot judge each individual’s reverence based on a NO mass. At parishes where the pastor does not do enough to encourage people to be reverent, people will essentially do whatever anybody else is doing. There are actually reverent people who do not display their reverence out of fear of drawing attention to themselves, keeping in mind the words of Christ: “your Father who sees in secret will repay you.”

You may be right, but the observation still stands. I go to my NO parish for Mass every Saturday night and then to the TLM on Sunday mornings and it is amazing the difference. There have been times when my NO priest has tried to “lay down the law” but people just do as they wish anyway. They don’t believe they are being irreverent. When their teens are wearing t-shirts with skulls and bones on the back and the word “Extreme” written on it and they allow them to come to Mass like that…then it might be more than just a lax priest. It is something within that person that they don’t “feel” they need to be irreverent…or worse…maybe they think they are.

:heart:Blyss

 

[Abigail]

universalindult, your post seems to indicate you agree with stmaria’s earlier post: “Don’t worry. It doesn’t exist. This thread has turned into a Traditional bashing.”

I sincerely don’t perceive any “Traditional bashing” on this thread, if “bashing” is interpreted to mean a desire to hurt others. Although another thread should probably be opened to discuss the Confederacy topics, the posters appear to be attempting to confine themselves to historical fact.

It is difficult for me to understand how stmaria can make the blanket statement that racial prejudice does not exist among traditionalists – I have seen it myself, so I know that her assertion that “It doesn’t exist” is uninformed.

Although I believe most traditional Catholics are sincere and holy people, it is not “bashing” to point out some of the negative aspects of the traditionalist movement and discuss them with charity, which is what I perceive is going on in this thread. We should all, individually and collectively, be willing to look at areas in which our witness to the Gospel can be improved.

 

[jj2011]

I don’t know about traditional bashing; the thread began because the OP was turned off by the boorish behavior of certain parishioners. In response, several of us encouraged her to stay with the traditional Mass, and I fervently hope she does. This were hardly a case of tradition bashing.

 

[pnewton]

Nobody is bashing anyone. This type of thread, started in sincerity, should only be used if there is something useful to say to the original poster, or to someone else on the topic, which is her disillusionment and current problems.

 

[Like]

stmaria:

I don’t understand what you mean by “Traditionalist bashing.” I, for one, pray for everyone and wish them well - I am not trying to hurt those traditionalists who promote views which are not Catholic or a misinterpretation of Catholic teaching. But I want to support lucybeebee by assuring her that she is not alone in her perceptions that SOME traditionalists adopt attitudes and practices which are not understood by other Catholics, and which can very confusing and unsettling. Indeed, enough traditionalists adopt these views that there is an identifiable “traditionalist” culture, and this has been pointed out to me by many who do not attend the TLM. This is merely an observation, not an attempt to hurt (bash) others.

SOME traditionalists are trying to escape from a world they find too evil and confusing. SOME have mysogynistic views, don’t believe women should vote or interact outside the home, adopt extreme dress, refuse to interact with people of other religions or beliefs, confuse their religion with their politics, etc. And SOME of them can be quite confrontational and hostile toward those who don’t believe as they do - I know, because I’ve been the target of such hostility. Rather than ignore the effect these behaviors have on others who are interested in the TLM, I think traditionalists have a duty to take a good, hard look at whether they radiate the love of God to ALL the people they meet. Unfortunately, one bad experience is enough to drive most well-meaning people away from the TLM.

Again, please don’t mistake my motivation here. I realize that many of the people I’ve described are either ignorant of Catholic teaching in some matters, or aren’t aware of the impression they leave on others. I am not saying any of these things to insult them, and I am not trying to hurt them.

Hear! Hear!
Abigail, Thanks for your post!

 

[lucybeebee]

I probably should have made it clear that I’ve been going to this TLM parish for about a year and a half. My own personal stress on some of the matters that were going on started a month or two ago. I was purposely trying to keep the details of the matter vague, because I didn’t think it was appropriate to air too much dirty laundry out to dry in front of strangers. The gist of the matter is that a vocal minority of parishoners (some with SSPX sympathies, some without) have been trying to get our pastor removed by lies, gossip, and slander. I have sat right next to people as they talked out how they were, “planning to get rid of Fr. X.” I also found out that every single one of the parish’s previous pastor’s was run out in a similar manner by irate parishoners. Apparently, there was also a problem with sedevacantists a few years ago, but they were kicked out. So with all this drama that’s been going on, the FSSP seem to be wearing out their welcome in the archdiocese and might get kicked out. That’s the basic story.

 

[Tomster]

I probably should have made it clear that I’ve been going to this TLM parish for about a year and a half. My own personal stress on some of the matters that were going on started a month or two ago. I was purposely trying to keep the details of the matter vague, because I didn’t think it was appropriate to air too much dirty laundry out to dry in front of strangers. The gist of the matter is that a vocal minority of parishoners (some with SSPX sympathies, some without) have been trying to get our pastor removed by lies, gossip, and slander. I have sat right next to people as they talked out how they were, “planning to get rid of Fr. X.” I also found out that every single one of the parish’s previous pastor’s was run out in a similar manner by irate parishoners. Apparently, there was also a problem with sedevacantists a few years ago, but they were kicked out. So with all this drama that’s been going on, the FSSP seem to be wearing out their welcome in the archdiocese and might get kicked out. That’s the basic story.

lucybeebee,

Pray for and support your pastor and his assistant(s). This situation has to be very hard on them. Let them know, verbally, that you care for them and are grateful for their dedicated ministry. Priests NEED to hear these things from the faithful. Their personal cross can get very heavy which can lead to discouragement.

Tomster

 

[Eric_Olsen]

I have to agree here. I go to a parish that has both NO and TLM.
We have had members of the local SSPX leave unwanted literature on our cars. I think they tend to be on the extreme and paranoid to a degree. At least the ones I have met. Can’t say for all of them.

Hi lucy,

I think perhaps the best thing for you to do is integrate yourself into a mainstream Parish that has the TLM. Also, there are some very reverent and beautiful Novus Ordo Masses out there, yes they can be found believe it or not. It’s not all like “chewing on cardboard” as some Priests call it. You might have to drive for an hour or two on Sunday.

Since Traditional Catholicism isn’t mainstream, you’re naturally going to find a few odd people mixed in. Some people, unfortunately, don’t really understand what the TLM is all about. They think that anything that is older is better, and that we need to “go back to” some certain period in history when everything was just lollypops and roses. For them, the TLM is like those fantasy role playing game meetings where people dress up and pretend they are wizards or dragon slayers- instead these people like to think they are living in centuries past with none of the evils and uncertainties that make modern life so difficult and complicated. Hence, their odd fascination for lost causes and bygone eras. It’s not about making them happen, but escaping into the idea of them.

If the fruit is bad, so is the tree. I’m not sure if FSSP is schismatic- is it? If the SSPX schismatics are involved, then the spirit of schism is surely there as well. That is not a good tree for sure.

 

[tcraig]

Although I believe most traditional Catholics are sincere and holy people, it is not “bashing” to point out some of the negative aspects of the traditionalist movement and discuss them with charity, which is what I perceive is going on in this thread. We should all, individually and collectively, be willing to look at areas in which our witness to the Gospel can be improved.

Exactly. And these negative aspects do exist; it’s just not NO attendees who dislike the TLM who make them up. Many who consider themselves to be “traditionalists” and love the TLM notice them, too.