Feeling discouraged... no longer praying

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Greetings and peace be with you Black_Rose;
Some sadistic God is testing us."
Jesus died for me and for you, so that our sins will be forgiven.

Why would Jesus die for me and you, if he is part of a sadistic Godhead?

Blessings and peace be with you

Eric
 
Try to remember how God can work through others in your life. When you seek; you shall find. When you knock; the door shall be opened to you. Forgive; and you will be forgiven. It is in seeing God’s likeness in your fellow man, not an outward aparition of God that He is ever present in your life. In seeking out answers in CAF, you are with God in a big way. You are in the company of those who were created in His image and likeness. Your family and friends and aquaintancs are outward signs of God’s presence in your life too. Pray but do not forget what Jesus said, " I am with you always, now and until the end of time.

I hope I have explained this well.
God Bless You Always
magdelaine1173’’
Wow, that’s inspiring me, a gal who is also quite discouraged at the moment.
 
Wow, that’s inspiring me, a gal who is also quite discouraged at the moment.
Now just so you will understand, I am not totally discouraged by life. I still believe that God works wonders throughout our lives. I wrote those explanations to inspire you to see how God is TRULY present to you, and so that you will realize you are not alone in your feelings or in this world. That God places us in contact with one another so that by seeking out others who believe we may find God in others, not just in prayer alone!

God Bless!
magdelaine1173:thumbsup:
 
I most certainly do not believe God has any plan for me, or anyone that I know for that matter. I do not see any difference between “God’s plan” or whatever economic, social, and physical forces being to any person’s life. I fail to see God’s interaction in the world, and it would seem that any purported divine intervention can be explained parsimoniously through mundane coincidences and other deterministic or stochastic phenomenon.

Before I posted this thread, I never believe that God acts in, for example, our financial or social interests, but many threads in the prayer thread have people petitioning for a job. If prayer, using gaming terminology, has a “positive expected value”, then I am unable to see it because the external variance is too high relative to “PEV”. I just feel prayer is just an act of futility now. (Some people attribute the “positive variance” of life (such as finding employment) to the effects of prayer because it would seem that it could be explained without prayer.)

I remember this lyric from when I was listening to the “Bleach” anime openings (which are quite good) and endings on YouTube about two weeks ago: “Some sadistic God is testing us.”

(I forgot what the song was named.)

When I think about prayer, those lyrics still resonate within me.
Well this is a good set of points and discussion matter.

Just because you believe something is so or is not so, doesn’t change or even make reality. This is the error of relativists…I think therefore I am. That’s where relativism in a large sense began. We became, or our belief and our perspective became, the point and source of “our” truth. And the viewpoint is quite wrong. Read some of Kreeft’s free writing on this point.

God arranges all events to the best of possible outcomes. Doesn’t mean that there won’t be pain, and suffering, and injustice, and all manner and matter of bad things. God can convert all those to great supernatural effect. The supernatural outlook is what is missing in your tight little equation of life and belief. A little suffering is nothing compared to eternal happiness. God can change events and importantly prayer can change US. Our prayer may or may not change physical events, it definitely can change supernatural events and the play of supernatural forces. It can change the course of souls. And remember a sanctified soul is worth more than the entire physical universe.

You can deny the supernatural, but it doesn’t have any effect on the reality of it.

God’s action in the world is the most parsimonious effect you’ll ever know if you search for it.

You sound educated, but beef up both your reading and your prayer. Read some encyclicals for some truly tight and penetrating thinking. And pray for faith.

In the end God wants you to submit everything to Him, even your closely held intelligence and your treasured skepticism. Intellectual pride keeps many people from living a truly joyful and loving life filled with awe and honest laughter. Don’t let healthy skepticism turn into prideful and stingy half-thinking, where everything, even God has to fit into small boxes of academic papers on a dusty shelf.

God Bless.
 
Right now, I feel discouraged because I perceive that my prayers are not effective, and I see myself as impotent when I engage in prayer. I just feel it is not a waste of time since I am unable to detect any discernible effect from it. Right now, I have the “why bother” mentality.

Does anyone struggle with this? At least when I was an atheist/agnostic, I did not struggle with this issue.
Hi Black Rose,

The only time my prayer was answered is when I prayed for someone that I was really mad at, a practical pagan, and I didn’t want good things to happen to them. But I did pray because I finally decided it was my duty. Then, voila!, out of the blue one day they say they are getting a appetite for theology and seeking spiritual direction.

When I want relief for myself, prayer never “works”. I think Jesus is trying to teach me something, and I don’t think I’m a very enthusiastic student ("Hey what’s the deal, Jesus? My cross is, like, heavy and has little splinters all over it; can’t you get me a balsa wood one with nice foam padding? Memory foam would be good …). Jesus wants me to participate in saving souls. Without passion and death there is no resurrection, and no path for us with Christ to heaven. This is the only way for us too.

Yeah, I get discouraged too. But I’m a long ways from being like Jesus, so I’ll do it his way … and if experiencing discouragement is on the way, then so be it. I trust him. What else is there?
 
Yep happens to all of us at one time or another. I’m in such a period at the moment. I can only suggest perseverance, and sticking to a structured form of prayer (for me the Liturgy of the Hours).
 
Well this is a good set of points and discussion matter.

Just because you believe something is so or is not so, doesn’t change or even make reality. This is the error of relativists…I think therefore I am. That’s where relativism in a large sense began. We became, or our belief and our perspective became, the point and source of “our” truth. And the viewpoint is quite wrong. Read some of Kreeft’s free writing on this point.

God arranges all events to the best of possible outcomes. Doesn’t mean that there won’t be pain, and suffering, and injustice, and all manner and matter of bad things. God can convert all those to great supernatural effect. The supernatural outlook is what is missing in your tight little equation of life and belief. A little suffering is nothing compared to eternal happiness. God can change events and importantly prayer can change US. Our prayer may or may not change physical events, it definitely can change supernatural events and the play of supernatural forces. It can change the course of souls. And remember a sanctified soul is worth more than the entire physical universe.

You can deny the supernatural, but it doesn’t have any effect on the reality of it.

God’s action in the world is the most parsimonious effect you’ll ever know if you search for it.

You sound educated, but beef up both your reading and your prayer. Read some encyclicals for some truly tight and penetrating thinking. And pray for faith.

In the end God wants you to submit everything to Him, even your closely held intelligence and your treasured skepticism. Intellectual pride keeps many people from living a truly joyful and loving life filled with awe and honest laughter. Don’t let healthy skepticism turn into prideful and stingy half-thinking, where everything, even God has to fit into small boxes of academic papers on a dusty shelf.

God Bless.
My thoughts on prayer and God aren’t directed towards my situation at all since I am not petitioning God for wealth and prosperity.

No, my concern has little to do with me at all, but it is a general inquiry about God’s role and action in this world. My argument is more nuanced than simply denying God’s existence or action in the world; instead, my contention is that God’s action is not significant enough to be detected and does not warrant one to attribute anything to God.

For instance, a losing poker player can attribute a string of recent loses due to bad luck (negative variance), but does not get dejected due to his confidence in his process will have yield a positive excepted value in future games. But how does one know whether they are playing a bad game (a “fish” in poker jargon who has many easily exploitable “leaks” in their game) or one simply suffering from bad luck? In such a case, it is more important to be concerned with process instead of short term outcomes because a superior process will yield superior outcomes in the long run where variance.

My current view of the world leaves little room for divine providence because it would seem that the hegemony of chance and necessity eclipses God’s sovereign will. As a consequence, I fail to see any utility or purpose to praying. Furthermore, as an inhabitant of a deterministic and probabilistic world, I do not see human free will (or God) trumping these powerful forces. It would seem that if human free will exists, it would be a very weak, and insignificant force.
 
‘Utility?’ Uh-oh.

That’s only one scary step away from the horror of ‘utilitarian bioethics.’

In any event, what a sad way to live. It almost sounds like you’re not discouraged, as the original title states, but angry and defiant.

:signofcross:
 
My thoughts on prayer and God aren’t directed towards my situation at all since I am not petitioning God for wealth and prosperity.

No, my concern has little to do with me at all, but it is a general inquiry about God’s role and action in this world. My argument is more nuanced than simply denying God’s existence or action in the world; instead, my contention is that God’s action is not significant enough to be detected and does not warrant one to attribute anything to God.

For instance, a losing poker player can attribute a string of recent loses due to bad luck (negative variance), but does not get dejected due to his confidence in his process will have yield a positive excepted value in future games. But how does one know whether they are playing a bad game (a “fish” in poker jargon who has many easily exploitable “leaks” in their game) or one simply suffering from bad luck? In such a case, it is more important to be concerned with process instead of short term outcomes because a superior process will yield superior outcomes in the long run where variance.

My current view of the world leaves little room for divine providence because it would seem that the hegemony of chance and necessity eclipses God’s sovereign will. As a consequence, I fail to see any utility or purpose to praying. Furthermore, as an inhabitant of a deterministic and probabilistic world, I do not see human free will (or God) trumping these powerful forces. It would seem that if human free will exists, it would be a very weak, and insignificant force.
Black Rose. You seem attracted or inclined toward nuanced thinking. What would be a more nuanced way of understanding God’s action and influence in the world? Would it be a God that prepares events/things on order, custom style? A need here, an answer there? A worry here, a resolution there? Contrition here? a forgiveness there? None of this is beyond God’s power…he can do it all.

But it’s kind of a human sort of understanding of God, no? Not very elegant, powerful or nuanced. Very mechanical and human-like!

Now pardon my humdrrum counter example…but imagine this. I happen to like 'The Waffle House (we have them in the southeast USA)…they may be all over. Our family sometimes goes there for fun. We go in with different interests…eggs, lunch, chili, hotdogs, waffles. How is the cook going to serve us all? Any room for a nuanced or elegant way of responding to these needs and wants? Well, as we go in there a funny thing starts to happen, sometimes/usually - we often start smelling the tantalizing smell of waffles. And one by one we cave in to a powerful, but subtle/creeping desire and then we all end up ordering waffles!

Now what if God has an effect on us…that the more we pray the more truly desire what is truly good for us. He’s in the kitchen just making waffles…and so his job is quite easy…through prayer he helps us truly desire what is truly good for us. [here my analogy or metaphor falls apart…because waffles probably aren’t that good for us]. But my point is that pray changes our desires. And we should pray for what is truly good for us…and it’s easy for God to give us Himself. He is truly what is good for us.

Just a crazy thought about God’s role in our world, big-picture wise. We pray…and one effect might be a soften heart…a heart now moved to help someone else. A heart less focused on our self, our selfish needs, or on an immediate answer in the way that we think out prayer should be answered.

Sorry, if the response is off the mark or not helpful to you. You still have me thinking.
 
My thoughts on prayer and God aren’t directed towards my situation at all since I am not petitioning God for wealth and prosperity.

No, my concern has little to do with me at all, but it is a general inquiry about God’s role and action in this world. My argument is more nuanced than simply denying God’s existence or action in the world; instead, my contention is that God’s action is not significant enough to be detected and does not warrant one to attribute anything to God.

For instance, a losing poker player can attribute a string of recent loses due to bad luck (negative variance), but does not get dejected due to his confidence in his process will have yield a positive excepted value in future games. But how does one know whether they are playing a bad game (a “fish” in poker jargon who has many easily exploitable “leaks” in their game) or one simply suffering from bad luck? In such a case, it is more important to be concerned with process instead of short term outcomes because a superior process will yield superior outcomes in the long run where variance.

My current view of the world leaves little room for divine providence because it would seem that the hegemony of chance and necessity eclipses God’s sovereign will. As a consequence, I fail to see any utility or purpose to praying. Furthermore, as an inhabitant of a deterministic and probabilistic world, I do not see human free will (or God) trumping these powerful forces. It would seem that if human free will exists, it would be a very weak, and insignificant force.
Read this to learn about Divine Transcendence and Immanence

newadvent.org/cathen/06614a.htm

God is not simply ruler of the universe. He holds it all into existence continually. Thus, nothing happens without Him letting it happen. If He wants anything gone, it’s gone. Thus, because He loves us, everything that happens happens for the best.

Then, read this

newadvent.org/cathen/12510a.htm

It is about Divine Providence. From your comment “My current view of the world leaves little room for divine providence because it would seem that the hegemony of chance and necessity eclipses God’s sovereign will.” it is clear you have little understanding of what Divine Providence is. Providence is not partial. There is either random chance, or providence. God’s providence is absolute. Therefore there is nothing that is a coincidence. Everything starts with God, and all that happens, though seeming like chance, is the will of God, either by His action or inaction. Hence any answered prayer is the doing of God. How does He do this? Simply, God does not exist it time. Past and future are all ‘present’ to Him. Thus, in His foreknowledge, knowing that you would ask for it to stop raining heavily one night while you worry for your spouse, could have moved an atom that moved a molecule that moved a compound that moved oxygen molecule that caused a small gust of wind one thousand years ago that eventually caused a strong wind to blow away the rain clouds today so that your spouse would be safe. Or had done nothing since it would have happened anyway. But Immanence means that God is the active force behind the movement of the cloud, and indeed all things. God can work with nature to complete His miracles, not just in defiance of it. Conversely, God, in His foreknowledge, knowing that you would not ask for help, could do nothing at all, leaving things as they are.

Thus, God is intimately involved in all the changes and doings of the world. There is nothing that happens that is coincidental or not in His will.
 
What a book Mother Teresa: Come Be My Light was! Black_Rose, you should read it.
 
Thank you for the information regarding the books. I have just ordered ‘Come Be My Light’ and another one.
Mother Teresa of Calcutta is a woman I have admired for many years!
Leslie
 
Our soul is a resident in a beautifully designed mind and a well-constructed physical body. In our worldly consciousness our mind only knows the outside of the home, the veneer of the body. If the ego continually directs the mind to the outside, the senses continually run around and about in service of the ego as it forgets the inner altar and the home of the soul. If the manipulation is long, the altar of the soul gets covered with the cobwebs of ignorance so in time it becomes hard for the mind to enjoy the peace and joy of the pure spirit. Tearing ourselves away from our self-created destiny, we can regain peace in the midst of our many activities if we direct ourselves to the center of our being, our soul and God’s pure consciousness.
 
Right now, I feel discouraged because I perceive that my prayers are not effective, and I see myself as impotent when I engage in prayer. I just feel it is not a waste of time since I am unable to detect any discernible effect from it. Right now, I have the “why bother” mentality.

Does anyone struggle with this? At least when I was an atheist/agnostic, I did not struggle with this issue.
Yes,I know just how you feel…it seems Truth is alyways on the scafold while error is on the throne! FIrst pick up some books on individuals who had it real tough in this crazy world…they lost a limb,a sweetheart,a needed job,were lied about,slandered etc etc…then try and feel how they felt and that as fellow humans we all suffer . Many of us have severe problems and we pray and pray for a solution and nothing seems to happen…like we are on a threadmill or somethin’ right? Patience and humility is our only walking cane…something to lean on I guess. Try to program yourself so that the problem may not be solved by praying but you are sharing it with the devine and thus placing it on their shoulders…hope their wings dont just brush it off…hang in there…Pas
 
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