Feeling discouraged

[Delphinus85]

I need help. And please, don’t reccomend any books to me. I’ve read West’s book many times.

Basically, after battling through it for almost year now, I just can’t see eye to eye with the church on ABC. I feel they either need to “outlaw” NFP or accept some forms of ABC (I do disagree with condoms and sterilization, but hormonal treatments that are non-permanent I really don’t see anything wrong with). This is causing me a LOT of pain and grief. I don’t teach fellow catholics my opinion but I do talk about it with my husband since he initially held this opinion anyway. We both agree that the church must know something we don’t so we adhere to the teaching anyway. I don’t write letters about it to anyone, and I don’t teach non-catholics or non-christians that it is okay. I also reccommend NFP to couples as much as I can, obviously since it is the healthiest form out there…although everyone I know who uses it ends up pregnant in a year…

I don’t think my opinion will ever change. I have committed myself to accepting this as a “thorn in the flesh” as it were, that I follow this, and pray that either the church change or I do. However, until God sees fit to move over me or the church that way, I feel like I can’t be a “good catholic.” especially when I spend time on the forums, and see catholics calling catholics who agree with ABC “non catholics” because of it.

Does anyone have any situation similar to this? Does anyone understand or have any good advice other than prayer, fasting, and reading that stupid West book one more time? I’ve done all the above and I still disagree. It’s really troublesome for me, especially since I converted a year ago and everything, EVERYTHING made perfect sense to me…except this one detail.

 

[wifeandmomoftwo]

I need help. And please, don’t reccomend any books to me. I’ve read West’s book many times.

Basically, after battling through it for almost year now, I just can’t see eye to eye with the church on ABC. I feel they either need to “outlaw” NFP or accept some forms of ABC (I do disagree with condoms and sterilization, but hormonal treatments that are non-permanent I really don’t see anything wrong with). This is causing me a LOT of pain and grief. I don’t teach fellow catholics my opinion but I do talk about it with my husband since he initially held this opinion anyway. We both agree that the church must know something we don’t so we adhere to the teaching anyway. I don’t write letters about it to anyone, and I don’t teach non-catholics or non-christians that it is okay. I also reccommend NFP to couples as much as I can, obviously since it is the healthiest form out there…although everyone I know who uses it ends up pregnant in a year…

I don’t think my opinion will ever change. I have committed myself to accepting this as a “thorn in the flesh” as it were, that I follow this, and pray that either the church change or I do. However, until God sees fit to move over me or the church that way, I feel like I can’t be a “good catholic.” especially when I spend time on the forums, and see catholics calling catholics who agree with ABC “non catholics” because of it.

Does anyone have any situation similar to this? Does anyone understand or have any good advice other than prayer, fasting, and reading that stupid West book one more time? I’ve done all the above and I still disagree. It’s really troublesome for me, especially since I converted a year ago and everything, EVERYTHING made perfect sense to me…except this one detail.

Lets start with what do you disagree with. What exactly can you not except.

 

[Delphinus85]

Lets start with what do you disagree with. What exactly can you not except.

I don’t really know if a debate will help…but…here goes.

I find it impossible to accept that NFP is okay when nothing else is. I hear NFP couples all the time bragging how great NFP is for preventing pregnancy, and it seems to me the spirit of the Pope’s letter states that couples should be open to life rather than just just finding licit ways to avoid pregnancy. Many couples I know on ABC greatly desire children, and are on it for either medical or “it’s jus tnot time yet” reasons. They are impatient to have children, one couple even planning to spend a lot of money for fertility treatments because the medical reason she needs it makes conception naturally a near impossibility. (she has endomentrial tissue on her heart, and if it inflames naturally for a natural cycle, she goes into cardiac arrest.) I see NFP couples bragging about how probablity for conception for them is so law because of NFP, lower even than ABC. I would think if they were truly open to life, they’d use ABC because it has a lower failure rate.

Basically it boils down to what is truly open to life. It seems to me it’s a desire of the heart. Marriage exists for children. If you don’t want kids, you don’t need to be married (obviously this doesn’t apply to infertile couples since they WANT kids it just hasn’t happened for them yet). I see NFP couples who are far more closed to life than ABC couples. Not saying I don’t see ABC couples that are closed to life, I see them. But almost as often as NFP couples. sigh I could write a book on this…this post is getting rather long.

Basically. ABC uses naturally occuring hormones, and if used for a short time, health risk is very rare. They are designed for use for a few years. THe system is almost set up for postponing pregnancy that preventing it.

 

[wifeandmomoftwo]

I don’t really know if a debate will help…but…here goes.

Not looking for a debate.
Just to understand what your “issues” are with NFP.

I find it impossible to accept that NFP is okay when nothing else is.

You do understand what the marital act is for, right?

I hear NFP couples all the time bragging how great NFP is for preventing pregnancy, and it seems to me the spirit of the Pope’s letter states that couples should be open to life rather than just just finding licit ways to avoid pregnancy.

And how do you know that they do not have a valid reason for spacing their kids or not having any more etc.??

Many couples I know on ABC greatly desire children, and are on it for either medical or “it’s jus tnot time yet” reasons.

Same with NFP.
If they really where desiring kids then they would not be on ABC.
ABC is not open to life, period.
While NFP is, be it trying to get pregnant or spacing kids.

They are impatient to have children, one couple even planning to spend a lot of money for fertility treatments because the medical reason she needs it makes conception naturally a near impossibility. (she has endomentrial tissue on her heart, and if it inflames naturally for a natural cycle, she goes into cardiac arrest.)

Well if she is on ABC then fertility treatments would be a waste of money. If her medical reasons are as severe as you describe then I would think a pregnancy is not gonna help her condition.
Also what is gonna happen to her when she goes off the ABC to try to get pregant, if her condition is so severe?

I see NFP couples bragging about how probablity for conception for them is so law because of NFP, lower even than ABC. I would think if they were truly open to life, they’d use ABC because it has a lower failure rate.

But they are open to life that is the thing.
Once you take ABC then you remove that.
That is why Catholics use NFP and not ABC, because every act needs to be open to life.

Basically it boils down to what is truly open to life. It seems to me it’s a desire of the heart. Marriage exists for children. If you don’t want kids, you don’t need to be married (obviously this doesn’t apply to infertile couples since they WANT kids it just hasn’t happened for them yet). I see NFP couples who are far more closed to life than ABC couples. Not saying I don’t see ABC couples that are closed to life, I see them. But almost as often as NFP couples. sigh I could write a book on this…this post is getting rather long.

Being open to life is just that.
Look at it this way…
ABC couples can have sex whenever they want. No need to abstain. So really all ABC allows them ot do is act like an animal 365 days per year with no (or very small) chance of ever getting pregnant.

Basically. ABC uses naturally occuring hormones, and if used for a short time, health risk is very rare. They are designed for use for a few years. THe system is almost set up for postponing pregnancy that preventing it.

ABC is far more harmful than you realize I think.
Have you ever read the insert that comes with the pills each month?

 

[wifeandmomoftwo]

.As background, the Church teaches that the gift of sex between man and woman, in it’s fullness, consists of two parts, the unitive, (which bonds the man and woman spiritually and emotionally together) and the procreative,
(which bonds the man and the woman physically together as another body which God can then ensoul as another person). In other words, it is a physical act of two becoming one for a moment, that results in two becoming one for
eternity, and God is intimately involved in the act with us. This is why the Church looks upon the sexual act as a holy and sacred action, and the Sacrament of Matrimony is given to us by God to help strengthen and protect these bonds brought about through the proper use of our sexual natures.

Now, what about NFP. It would seem then, that children are to be the only reason to have sex then, doesn’t it? It can seem that way, but God made a woman to have a cycle of fertility. There are times when she can be impregnated and times when she cannot. With NFP a couple decides to refrain
from having sex during the times when she may be fertile and having intercourse during the times when she is less likely to be fertile. In other words, regulated abstinence. Neither the wife’s nor the husband’s fertility is interfered with in any way. They simply refrain from having relations.
This is the normal state of almost everyone in the world at almost every time of almost every day. It is completely natural and it cannot be sinful to refrain from having sex, it would just be ridiculous to consider it being so. Now, if the couple decides to “take a chance” then they realize their choice, and God will is no way blocked. He does not require us to have sex,
it is a gift we may choose to exercise or may not choose to.

ABC on the other hand, blocks fertility specifically for the purpose of having sex without the “risk” of pregnancy. It is less birth control and “family planning” and more birth prevention and “sex planning”. From my perspective,
the reason birth control and sterilization is practiced is to allow a person to have as much sex as humanly possible with as little responsibility as humanly possible, with as many people as humanly possible, for as long as humanly possible. It is just the opposite of the self-control required to practice NFP and either permanently (as in the case of sterilization) or
temporarily (as in the case of contraception) tells God in essence to “Butt Out until we say so”. This is why the Church says that contraception and intentional sterilization are inherently disordered. It is wrong to accept a gift and then reject the gift giver, and massively so if the gift giver is
also the Creator.

Now I realize that some people have the attitude that to restrict the size of one’s family is wrong even if using NFP. Each couple must search their consciences when considering their choices and they need to truly find out the reasons they
have for deciding to avoid a pregnancy or deciding to try for a baby. Each must examine their own reasons to insure that they are not being merely selfish in not being willing to give life to another person through God’s
blessing. Marriage is meant to be a life of giving ones self to another completely and receiving back in turn the other completely. What all love really comes down to is, how much one is willing to make sacrifices for the good of the one who is loved. Love sacrifices its self for others, selfishness sacrifices others for itself.

I’ve often heard it said that love has to be give and take. I feel that it would be better stated that love has to be giving and receiving, and therefore it IS more blessed to give than to receive.

 

[Delphinus85]

Not looking for a debate.
Just to understand what your “issues” are with NFP.

You do understand what the marital act is for, right?

And how do you know that they do not have a valid reason for spacing their kids or not having any more etc.??

Same with NFP.
If they really where desiring kids then they would not be on ABC.
ABC is not open to life, period.
While NFP is, be it trying to get pregnant or spacing kids.

Well if she is on ABC then fertility treatments would be a waste of money. If her medical reasons are as severe as you describe then I would think a pregnancy is not gonna help her condition.
Also what is gonna happen to her when she goes off the ABC to try to get pregant, if her condition is so severe?

But they are open to life that is the thing.
Once you take ABC then you remove that.
That is why Catholics use NFP and not ABC, because every act needs to be open to life.

Being open to life is just that.
Look at it this way…
ABC couples can have sex whenever they want. No need to abstain. So really all ABC allows them ot do is act like an animal 365 days per year with no (or very small) chance of ever getting pregnant.

ABC is far more harmful than you realize I think.
Have you ever read the insert that comes with the pills each month?

This is why I don’t want to debate. Yes I have read the insert. Don’t think I’m some ignorant person who just wants to do what I want. This issue is really bothering me, and saying things like that is just making it worse.

I just can’t see how NFP is open to life with ABC is not. Both couples are just as ardently avoiding pregnancy.

 

[wifeandmomoftwo]

In regards to being open to life…

This is a good article.archden.org/archbishop/docs/of_human_life.htm

 

[Delphinus85]

Guys, I really don’t need to debate my opinion. Seriously. I’ve read the books, the writings, and the debates on here. I am trying to get advice on how on earth I can live as a catholic in good standing if I disagree! I am really broken up over this disagreement, I am really hurt by the accusations, and being called “stupid” or people assuming I don’t know enough and that’s why I disagree. I’ve read more literature than I can remember, and I disagree. Should I just leave the church? What? What is someone in my situation supposed to do?

 

[wifeandmomoftwo]

This is why I don’t want to debate.

I did not want to debate, didnt think we where. I was trying to understand what the issue was exactly.

Yes I have read the insert. Don’t think I’m some ignorant person who just wants to do what I want.

WOW! I never said you where ignorant or anything else.

This issue is really bothering me, and saying things like that is just making it worse.

Hence why I deleted my post, but you replied before that sorry.

I just can’t see how NFP is open to life with ABC is not. Both couples are just as ardently avoiding pregnancy.

Not at all.

 

[Delphinus85]

I did not want to debate, didnt think we where. I was trying to understand what the issue was exactly.

WOW! I never said you where ignorant or anything else.

Hence why I deleted my post, but you replied before that sorry.

Not at all.

okay. sorry about that. It just seemed you were. my bad.

I just want to know what to do with this opinion. Trust me, if I could change my mind I would. I wish I could. This is a personal torment of mine. What am I supposed to do about it though? I really wish I could see the logic, but I can’t. What am I supposed to do?

 

[wifeandmomoftwo]

Guys, I really don’t need to debate my opinion. Seriously. I’ve read the books, the writings, and the debates on here. I am trying to get advice on how on earth I can live as a catholic in good standing if I disagree! I am really broken up over this disagreement, I am really hurt by the accusations, and being called “stupid” or people assuming I don’t know enough and that’s why I disagree. I’ve read more literature than I can remember, and I disagree. Should I just leave the church? What? What is someone in my situation supposed to do?

Did not want a debate.
To live as a good catholic who does not agree with the teaching is to do what a good catholic who does believe in the teaching does.

I did not call you stupid, or assume you dont know enough. I hate to be accused of something that I did not do!
Especially when I only asked a question!

 

[Delphinus85]

Did not want a debate.
To live as a good catholic who does not agree with the teaching is to do what a good catholic who does believe in the teaching does.

I did not call you stupid, or assume you dont know enough. I hate to be accused of something that I did not do!
Especially when I only asked a question!

See above.

also when I said that I wasn’t talking about you, but rather what others have said. My bad again.

 

[wifeandmomoftwo]

okay. sorry about that. It just seemed you were. my bad.

it is ok.

I just want to know what to do with this opinion. Trust me, if I could change my mind I would. I wish I could. This is a personal torment of mine. What am I supposed to do about it though? I really wish I could see the logic, but I can’t. What am I supposed to do?

You are the only one that can make a desicion to leave or stay in the church.
I wish another NFP user would post and perhaps explain to you how ABC and NFP are different soo you would understand that there is a difference.

 

[wifeandmomoftwo]

See above.

Got it…we crossed paths in posting

also when I said that I wasn’t talking about you, but rather what others have said. My bad again.

OK.

Did you reread post #4? The one I deleted and posted something different?

 

[jkarp]

Guys, I really don’t need to debate my opinion. Seriously. I’ve read the books, the writings, and the debates on here. I am trying to get advice on how on earth I can live as a catholic in good standing if I disagree! I am really broken up over this disagreement, I am really hurt by the accusations, and being called “stupid” or people assuming I don’t know enough and that’s why I disagree. I’ve read more literature than I can remember, and I disagree. Should I just leave the church? What? What is someone in my situation supposed to do?

There is a difference between dissenting and withholding assent. Actively dissenting (that is, openly disagreeing with, and trying to persuade other people to change their opinions) from the Holy See is bad. Withholding assent (saying, “I am having trouble seeing their point and am not necessarily going to assent to it until I can investigate it further”) is not.

By your description, it would seem that you are simply withholding assent. I would recommend that you continue your current path and investigation and pray that the Holy Spirit may open your eyes so that you may see the wisdom of the church’s leaders.

 

[Delphinus85]

There is a difference between dissenting and withholding assent. Actively dissenting (that is, openly disagreeing with, and trying to persuade other people to change their opinions) from the Holy See is bad. Withholding assent (saying, “I am having trouble seeing their point and am not necessarily going to assent to it until I can investigate it further”) is not.

By your description, it would seem that you are simply withholding assent. I would recommend that you continue your current path and investigation and pray that the Holy Spirit may open your eyes so that you may see the wisdom of the church’s leaders.

In the meantime, what do I do about it? I kind of feel like a second rate citizen or something because I disagree. Especially since some catholics can not only be really rude about it, but downright mean and hurtful.

 

[jkarp]

I wish another NFP user would post and perhaps explain to you how ABC and NFP are different soo you would understand that there is a difference.

My wife and I practice NFP. The Church does not say that it is OK to use NFP to avoid having children, it says it is OK to use NFP to delay pregnancy. For example. We got pregnant on our honeymoon. Shortly after (3 or 4 months) our daughter was delivered we found ourselves pregnant again - with twins! Boys to boot. :bigyikes: The twins were born four weeks early, only 11 months after our daughter so we found ourselves with three children under the age of 1. We used NFP to delay another pregnancy until these three had grown a bit. Our fourth child was born last June.

The twins were conceived during an infertile period, however because we were practicing NFP, we were open to the possibility of life and the Lord blessed us two more times, if we were using ABC, we wouldn’t have two wonderful boys in our lives. I wholeheartedly believe that NFP is not simply “Catholic ABC.”

I know that the thread originate requested no book recommendations, this is not technically a book. I attended a talk by Janet Smith, who has written many books on the subject. The transcript of her talk called “Contraception: Why Not?” is highly recommended.

Recommended Reading:
Contraception: Why Not? A talk by Janet Smith

 

[wifeandmomoftwo]

My wife and I practice NFP. The Church does not say that it is OK to use NFP to avoid having children, it says it is OK to use NFP to delay pregnancy. .

Yes, did I say otherwise? If I did that was not my intention:blush:

 

[jkarp]

Yes, did I say otherwise? If I did that was not my intention:blush:

No, I don’t think you said otherwise, I was only trying to emphasize the difference between, sorry for the confusion

 

[wifeandmomoftwo]

No, I don’t think you said otherwise, I was only trying to emphasize the difference between, sorry for the confusion

Open mouth insert keyboard…I am sorry. I see what you where doing now (you where the NFP user/couple) posting the difference between the two:blush: