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Cruciferi
Guest
Tell him to speak with his Priest and to STOP harassing you about attending the Ordinary Form. His behavior is ignorant and inappropriate.
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LisaB
Guest
Given your statement above, do YOU think that the EF is more reverent? Because if you do, I can see how you may feel guilty. If not, what does it matter what your friend thinks? You can’t base your spiritual life on other people’s opinions.
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Annie
Guest
The EF can be abused too.
My thoughts are that 1. If pre-V2 was so great, why did everything collapse so quickly under those who were raised before the Council? 2. Why did so much of the sex abuse occur by priests who were trained and ordained pre-V2?
As others have pointed out, Latin used to be the language people would have used in common, way back when. I have always thought it interesting that the Protestant Revolution occurred more in the areas where the language used was not Latin-based: Germany, Scandanavia, etc. Then I read a book written before V2 (1940s or 50s) called “The Cardinal,” describing some of the difficulties missionaries had in really far-flung places like India and further, because the new Catholics were so completely unfamiliar with Latin. There’s a reason people in the US used to pray the Rosary during the OF Mass!
Finally, it is up to your “friend” to prove his point. Simply stating that the OF is more reverent or has more prayers is not enough. Priests used to rattle through the OF as fast as they could, people’s attention would drift, so there were problems with the OF too.
My thoughts are that 1. If pre-V2 was so great, why did everything collapse so quickly under those who were raised before the Council? 2. Why did so much of the sex abuse occur by priests who were trained and ordained pre-V2?
As others have pointed out, Latin used to be the language people would have used in common, way back when. I have always thought it interesting that the Protestant Revolution occurred more in the areas where the language used was not Latin-based: Germany, Scandanavia, etc. Then I read a book written before V2 (1940s or 50s) called “The Cardinal,” describing some of the difficulties missionaries had in really far-flung places like India and further, because the new Catholics were so completely unfamiliar with Latin. There’s a reason people in the US used to pray the Rosary during the OF Mass!
Finally, it is up to your “friend” to prove his point. Simply stating that the OF is more reverent or has more prayers is not enough. Priests used to rattle through the OF as fast as they could, people’s attention would drift, so there were problems with the OF too.
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Veritas6
Guest
I wasn’t trying to start a debate, I felt kinda upset before. What would your opinion be? There’s no judgment from me. I respect if you prefer the EF or the OF, I’m curious if people think the EF is inherently more reverent (but I have no problem with it).
blackforest
Well-known member
What matters is not what people think but what the Church thinks. And other posters have made the Church’s teaching quite clear: Either form is acceptable, and neither one is superior or inferior.
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I have not attended an EF Mass after the promulgation of of the Mass of Pope Paul VI and my memories of Mass prior to1963 are pretty dim.
But I will restate what I and many people believe to be true. A big reason for the reverence reported at EF masses is because of the people who wish to attend them and is not really due to the Mass itself.
Now that is not to say that people are wrong about EF masses being celebrated more ‘reverently’, but that is not surprising since EFs are attended by a select group of Catholics rather than by a random sample of Catholics.
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Salibi
Guest
Not to derail the thread but I don’t think I should start a new thread for this but isn’t Novus Ordo a derogatory term? I thought the proper term is the Ordinary Form of the Latin Mass.
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Dorothy
Guest
It sounds like he can use a good spiritual advisor, and obey him.
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chessnerd321
Guest
Yikes. I know you two are just friends. But I don’t know what to call that besides manupulative/emotionally abusive. I would spend a lot less time with him. I would consider spending zero time with such a person.
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DisorientingSneeze
Guest
Countering his argument would be not for his sake but your own. Consider the fruits these different parishes are bearing. If your parish is feeding the hungry, enriching marriages, comforting those in grief, visiting the imprisoned, nurturing vocations and educating people in the faith, you shouldn’t have to feel guilty about attending unless that guilt is oh hey I should be doing more. If you prefer a traditional mass, attend one. If you aren’t sure and you like your own parish stay there and be reverent.
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awesomecatholic
Guest
Your friend should not have attacked you and I am sorry he upset you. The OF form is just as good as the EF form. I can understand why you would be more comfortable at the OF form. Don’t let him pressure you or make you feel guilty, because you have nothing to be guilty about.
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Bonaventurian
Guest
It sounds like your friend has issues with pride. He should sort that out with his confessor and be more charitable in his interactions with his fellow Catholics.
I understand where he is coming from, I have a personal preference for TLM myself, but reverence is a personal disposition not something that is automatically “turned on” with the Latin Mass. I understand that the liturgy can effect the perceptions of those in attendance, but you can find reverent Catholics at the most “liberal” OF Masses as well as at regular EF Masses. If you personally accept that the body, blood, soul and divinity of Jesus Christ is truly present on the altar and treat Him that way, then you’re behaving reverently. And based on your description, you sound like you have a good OF parish.
I understand where he is coming from, I have a personal preference for TLM myself, but reverence is a personal disposition not something that is automatically “turned on” with the Latin Mass. I understand that the liturgy can effect the perceptions of those in attendance, but you can find reverent Catholics at the most “liberal” OF Masses as well as at regular EF Masses. If you personally accept that the body, blood, soul and divinity of Jesus Christ is truly present on the altar and treat Him that way, then you’re behaving reverently. And based on your description, you sound like you have a good OF parish.
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phil19034
Guest
You shouldn’t feel guilt.
Question: is your friend bullying you or just overly enthusiastic?
If the friend is bullying, tell him/her to stop. The OF is just as valid and can be just as beautiful.
If your friend is simply overly enthusiastic, you could give the EF a few more tries.
I heared an FSSP priest say the first time he attended the Latin mass in his 20s he didn’t think it was for him. But after attending about 10 masses, in the EF (because a friend was enthusiastically encouraging him to go) he eventually feel in love, grew closer to God and joined the seminary after walking away from a career as an engineer.
Follow your heart. If you like charismatic prayer, the OF is great for that. But if you like contemplative prayer, the EF is great for that.
God Bless
Question: is your friend bullying you or just overly enthusiastic?
If the friend is bullying, tell him/her to stop. The OF is just as valid and can be just as beautiful.
If your friend is simply overly enthusiastic, you could give the EF a few more tries.
I heared an FSSP priest say the first time he attended the Latin mass in his 20s he didn’t think it was for him. But after attending about 10 masses, in the EF (because a friend was enthusiastically encouraging him to go) he eventually feel in love, grew closer to God and joined the seminary after walking away from a career as an engineer.
Follow your heart. If you like charismatic prayer, the OF is great for that. But if you like contemplative prayer, the EF is great for that.
God Bless
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phil19034
Guest
Inherently more reverent, no. However, the priests that do it today are ones who really care about the liturgy. The Diocesan ones who celebrate both the EF and OF often make sure their vernacular masses are very reverent too.
The same type of priest who was abusing the Latin mass before Vatican II is the same type of priest who abuses the ordinary form today.
What young people most like about the Latin mass is that it’s rare to find liturgical abusers and watered down homilies there among the priests who celebrate it.
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CRV
Guest
Agreed. I’m very blest to have this at my parish. Both forms are celebrated very reverently and the homilies are not watered down.
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pulchraesamicamea
Guest
St. Francis de Sales writes in his Introduction to the Devout Life that, “Another man reckons himself as devout because he repeats many prayers daily, although at the same time he does not refrain from all manner of angry, irritating, conceited, or insulting speeches among his family and neighbours.” (pg. 3)
He puts an emphasis of devotion- and this is not exclusive to the Extraordinary Form. In every Mass, Christ is present. St. Francis de Sales writes, “In short, devotion is simply a spiritual activity and liveliness by means of which Divine Love works in us, and causes us to work briskly and lovingly.” (pg. 4). So if your friend is saying that you cannot be devout nor reverent because you don’t attend the Extraordinary Form… he is totally wrong on his viewpoint.
And it seems like your friend is quite misguided. I suggest him to read the Introduction because St. Francis definitely contradicts his opinions for sure in his book. Also, God is present in every Mass when the bread and wine is consecrated both in EF and OF.
Please don’t feel bad about attending OF. EF is also very beautiful, but please know that OF is also approved by our Holy Church and the faithful can attend both!
Pax Christi.
He puts an emphasis of devotion- and this is not exclusive to the Extraordinary Form. In every Mass, Christ is present. St. Francis de Sales writes, “In short, devotion is simply a spiritual activity and liveliness by means of which Divine Love works in us, and causes us to work briskly and lovingly.” (pg. 4). So if your friend is saying that you cannot be devout nor reverent because you don’t attend the Extraordinary Form… he is totally wrong on his viewpoint.
And it seems like your friend is quite misguided. I suggest him to read the Introduction because St. Francis definitely contradicts his opinions for sure in his book. Also, God is present in every Mass when the bread and wine is consecrated both in EF and OF.
Please don’t feel bad about attending OF. EF is also very beautiful, but please know that OF is also approved by our Holy Church and the faithful can attend both!
Pax Christi.
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DisorientingSneeze
Guest
This! Some places and norms yield a very hushed atmosphere. The social norms for taking a standardized test are very quiet. Some people in that atmosphere will remain focused on the test, others may stare at ceiling tiles or stress about what other test takers are doing.
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maryjk
Guest
Or maybe not.
I am really NOT a fan of charismatic prayer. And I am very much a “Say the black, do the red.”
And I much prefer the OF.
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phil19034
Guest
Yes, sorry.phil19034:
Or maybe not.
I am really NOT a fan of charismatic prayer. And I am very much a “Say the black, do the red.”
And I much prefer the OF.
I didn’t mean charismatic prayer in the sense of what we all think of. I really mean more of a “participatory” or “oral” prayer vs meditative prayer.
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