feeling strong pull to orthodoxy ...

[ASimpleSinner]

Do numbers matter that much? Whether a significant number of people are converting to Orthodoxy or not has nothing to di with the truth of Orthodoxy. Were the True Church to be forced into the catacombs again, would the number of heretics attest to the validity of their communion?

This is a valid enough point, and certainly one that allows an apologist to hunker down in the “we alone are the faithful remnant argument” Answering that can take days, weeks, months, years, decades, centuries… In the course of time it would be expected or hoped that the faithful remnant in fact would grow and gain greater strength - a sign of Providence and blessing. Using it to confirm the righteousness of that which is not… At some point we begin to scratch our heads and wonder why this mockery of error, the Catholic Church, gained 300M members during the pontificate of JP2 alone.

How hard did these Anglican converst struggle to learn chants from the “Middle East”? Does a lack of committment to learning chant equal a reason to abandon the truth? Would an evangelican Christian who struggled to learn Gregorian Chant(in Latin) be justified in leaving Roman Catholicism because of the difficulty? You would think a group consisting of a significant number of ex-Anglicans so teid to their cultural heritage would make an effort to practice Western Rite Orthodoxy before they would leave the Orthodox Church based on cultural ties.

Who said anything about “lack of committment to learning chant”?? They were very committed and did just that!

I didn’t say they were ex-Anglicans, I said they were Anglos/Cuacasians. The Western Rite is a matter that is of no small amount of controversy, and we could and would do well to start another thread.

Casting subtle aspersions on how genuine they were seems odd. That wasn’t the point. The point was that at some point this gent experienced a disconnect and recognized an odd sort of pride in the fact that this small community mightily attempting to adopt the prayer styles from another culture and were satisfied at coffee hour how they weren’t western and involved in all the attendent problems found down the street at the local Catholic parish…

He didn’t leave Orthodoxy because it was too difficult or because he was uncommitted. He had questions and saw issues that were not resolved otherwise.

You seem to give examples of people running away from the liturgical and spiritual mess they experienced in their old communion as true examples; as opposed to sincere converts searching for the truth. Yes, people converting for those reasons may well have a general five year lifespan - probably similar to the lifespan of a convert to Roman Catholicism who converted for similar reasons.

Why do you create the dichotomy of someone is either running or someone is sincere. Many are both.

Again, regarding numbers: we here in the US like to imagine ourselves as the example by which all are judged. We are only slightly over 200 years old as a country. Compare 200 years to the 2000 years that Christianity has existed! The Slavs were converted, what, about a thousand years ago? So for about one-thousand years they lived in darkness while significant parts of the world were being converted to Christianity.

I am not sure the point here. Growth and retention seem to be imperative for missions. In fact we just haven’t seen this on the level popularly reported. Folks who make effort to point to “In my area Orthodox parishes like to say a quarter of their members are former Catholics.” seem to be pushing the envelope in suggesting more of the boom than there really is or was. To what end, I am not sure. The fact is, you go to any non-Catholic group and as a function of their being 55+M people in the US with some affiliation (even if it was just baptism) with the Catholic Church, you are going to find converts from it.

How big of an impact has Roman Catholicism really made on the traditionally protestant USA? Outside of the ethnic groups whose culture has closely linked them with Roman Catholicism; eg. Italians, Irish, Polish, Spanish… how greatly has the Roman Catholic Church managed to hold onto Catholics, or even moreso “convert the land”, as it were, to Catholicism? Look at demographics… look at the number of people coming to the US from traditionally Catholic countries and cultures compared to the number of immigrants coming from traditionally Orthodox countries… have either of us gained a majority in this land?

No. This is, however an odd point to make. I wasnt claiming we had been successful in establishing a majority… So I am not sure where you are going with that one.

As it is, neither traditionally Roman Catholic nor traditionally Orthodox countries have nearly high enough a regular rate of Mass and Divine Liturgy attendance on Sundays as compared to the population who associate themselves with either communion.

On this we agree.

We both do the best we can, and work tirelesly to convert people and build Christ’s Church. “Repo Man”, investigate Orthodoxy further, and do not only the homework but, pray ceaselesly that the Lord will guide you. May God bless you on your journey!

On this I agree.

 

[Hesychios]

Consider attending an Eastern Rite church, one in communion with Rome.

There just are not that many.

One needs to be in a major metropolitan area north of the Ohio river and east of the Mississippi in order to have a reasonable chance at finding a near enough parish.

Some, like the Syro-Malabar and Syro-Malankara churches are growing rapidly because of immigration from India, and they are following new patterns of settlement. The Byzantine tradition churches are better established in the old industrial northeast, but some of these have been in a state of rapid decline for the last two decades, propped up partly by immigration.

It is far more realistic to look for a TLM. But the theology is different.

Michael

 

[lukewarm]

I would be careful the orthodox tread into idolatry if you ask me:

The Eastern Orthodox teaching regarding veneration of icons is that the praise and veneration shown to the icon passes over to the archetype (Basil of Caesarea,On the Holy Spirit 18:45: “The honor paid to the image passes to the prototype”). Thus to kiss an icon of Christ, in the Eastern Orthodox view, is to show love towards Christ Jesus himself (that is outrageous idolatry).

Orthodox don’t use statues at least which I believe was forbidden at the 7th ecumenical council. I would keep looking and read the Bible and what God has to say about idolatry.

 

[Hesychios]

1. i would not describe myself as ‘unchurched’ although i see where that could be inferred. i’m a devout roman catholic who reverted to RC after a long spiritual journey from atheism. along every step of the way i closely examined everything for truth. didn’t find it in atheism, so i moved on. same with deism. same with my own little form of arianism. then i went straight back to RC. i just now feel like i didn’t give EO a fair amount of discernment.

I am very sympathetic to your experience, having had a similar evololution in thinking.

I also explored (superficially I will admit) Judaism and Buddhism. I found the most insight from Buddhism, and it helped me develop a new appreciation for Christianity and eventually Catholic Christianity. That was long ago, of course.

though i don’t think anything is going to come of this anymore. just when i thought i was losing faith in the RCC, someone made a comment in passing about the vatican being full of rich, greedy people and then the news about some protestors throwing ashes on the pope, i was so angry about it. i don’t know if that’s out of habit, but i’m pretty sure even though my mind is wandering, my heart knows what’s what.

edit: and my intention for this thread was NOT to start a fight as someone suggested. the last thing the EO and RC need is more fighting. was just wondering if anyone could recommend any books specifically for either side of the spectrum or something like that.

I am sorry I sounded so accusatory. My first bit of advice would be to bloom where you are planted. I am sure you will agree that any move you contemplate must be for positive reasons. The options are open to you, just be aware of that and relax a little bit.

I still get angry over offenses to the Pope like you describe too. My hackles instinctively go up. I am continually exposed to anti-Catholic diatribe in the environment I work in, some of it rankles the hell out of me and it still can hurt.

Here is one of my book recommendations…Common Ground. Be forewarned, although it is a paperback, it’s oversized. Very well organized and informative for the layperson.

This is one book I recommend to everyone. It’s a little deep, but well constructed and informative if one has a real interest in the eastern form of Christianity. The author is non-Orthodox.

Another, quite an informative book for background. Another book, well written by a non-Orthodox Christian.

And finally, a simple advocacy for collegiality in the church by a convert to Holy orthodoxy.

Don’t think of this as something that will resolve itself quickly. The studies will be beneficial to you whatever you decide. But take your time, ruminate and pray on it.

Michael

 

[Hesychios]

I would be careful the orthodox tread into idolatry if you ask me:

The Eastern Orthodox teaching regarding veneration of icons is that the praise and veneration shown to the icon passes over to the archetype (Basil of Caesarea,On the Holy Spirit 18:45: “The honor paid to the image passes to the prototype”). Thus to kiss an icon of Christ, in the Eastern Orthodox view, is to show love towards Christ Jesus himself (that is outrageous idolatry).

This opinion of yours is certainly strange to my eyes.

I have a photo of my mother. She was beautiful and young then.

I loved her very much but she is not with us any longer, I held her hand as she breathed her last and I watched the light go out of her eyes.

To me, that photograph is not her, but through it I see her. Yes, I do kiss that photo, even as I wipe a way a tear.

Michael

 

[ASimpleSinner]

And finally, a simple advocacy for collegiality in the church by a convert to Holy orthodoxy.

Don’t think of this as something that will resolve itself quickly. The studies will be beneficial to you whatever you decide. But take your time, ruminate and pray on it.

In addition to "Two Paths: Papal Monarchy - Collegial Tradition : Rome’s Claims of Papal Supremacy in the Light of Orthodox Christian Teaching " He may do well to also read and consider Newman’s Apologia Pro Vita Sua and Jesus, Peter and the Keys.

 

[Mickey]

I studied history and chose the Orthodox Church.

Me too. I am convinced that Rome is the schismatic Church.

 

[Antonin]

This opinion of yours is certainly strange to my eyes.

I have a photo of my mother. She was beautiful and young then.

I loved her very much but she is not with us any longer, I held her hand as she breathed her last and I watched the light go out of her eyes.

To me, that photograph is not her, but through it I see her. Yes, I do kiss that photo, even as I wipe a way a tear.

Michael

What a great reply!!!:yup: I want to say to you…Thank you! My opinion on the matter of Eastern Orthodoxy versus Roman Catholicism is that there are much more important things about being a Christian than what official established religion one belongs to. I heard a Catholic priest say recently about what is the Christian identity. That identity is how one treats other people. Christ commanded to love God and love your neighbor. The most important thing is to show kindness toward others. Also, of course, one must repent his or her sins, too.
My ethnic heritage is rooted in the Eastern Orthodox Church. This was the faith of my deceased mother, my grandfather and grandmother, and other ancestors. Some were persecuted Christians in the Soviet Union. I want to get beyond that horrible history of my ancestors’ suffering while still greatly honoring them. That is why I feel that Metropolitan Laurus performed a heroic deed by reunifying the Moscow Church with the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad. I feel that it is also time to get beyond the breakup of the Church in 1054. It is unchristian like to harbor deep seated hostility about power struggles that happened in the distant past. The Catholics and Orthodox can argue about which religion is the correct one until the cows come home, with the result just being more animosity towards each other. I hope that people will heed the rule of “loving one another”. It may be pretty amazing what may come of that.

 

[lukewarm]

This opinion of yours is certainly strange to my eyes.

I have a photo of my mother. She was beautiful and young then.

I loved her very much but she is not with us any longer, I held her hand as she breathed her last and I watched the light go out of her eyes.

To me, that photograph is not her, but through it I see her. Yes, I do kiss that photo, even as I wipe a way a tear.

Michael

Do yo incense that picture (burnt offering) and pray before it while “venerating it”? And your comparison of a picture of your mother does not reflect orthodox teaching on icons at all.

 

[Hesychios]

Do yo incense that picture (burnt offering) and pray before it while “venerating it”? And your comparison of a picture of your mother does not reflect orthodox teaching on icons at all.

What…pray tell…do you know about Orthodox teaching, and where did you learn it?

To me you demonstrate the most abominable ignorance.

As a matter of fact, when I cense the icons I also cense the pictures of loved ones…as well as any guests present…for we are all icons of Christ.

Btw, I do talk to my mother, at times. I also ask for her prayers.

Last week I was at her gravesite, and pressed my forehead to the ground over her, I kissed her headstone. I also left flowers, and had I the means I would have left a candle burning there.

Does this “horrify” you? Too bad.

http://ocaphoto.oca.org/filetmp/2005/April/954/Detail/DSC_0018.jpg

I do these same things in church. In worship we are in the presence of God, the Angels and the Saints. The living and those who have gone before are together a great cloud of witnesses, and we pray together:

+Glory to Thee, our God, Glory to Thee.

O Heavenly King, Comforter, the Spirit of Truth, Who art everywhere present and fillest all things, the Treasury of good things and Giver of life: Come, and abide in us, and cleanse us from every stain, and save our souls, O Good One.

+Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal: have mercy on us.
+Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal: have mercy on us.
+Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal: have mercy on us.

***+Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit, both now and ever, and unto the ages of ages. ***
Amen.

All-Holy Trinity, have mercy on us. Lord, cleanse us from our sins. Master, pardon our iniquities. Holy God, visit and heal our infirmities for Thy name’s sake.

Lord, have mercy.
Lord, have mercy.
Lord, have mercy.

+Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit, both now and ever, and unto the ages of ages.

Our Father, who art in Heaven, hallowed be Thy name. Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us; and lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one.

***For Thine is the Kingdom, and the power, and the glory, of the +Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, now and ever and unto ages of ages. ***
Amen.

Michael

 

[lukewarm]

Heyschios,

The Bible is the one you have an issue with, your icons or “windows to Heaven” which transfer when censed into that which you are venerating are the very definition of idolatry. Sorry I don’t agree with it and I am warning the OP from falling into idolatry.

 

[Mickey]

The Bible is the one you have an issue with, your icons or “windows to Heaven” which transfer when censed into that which you are venerating are the very definition of idolatry. Sorry I don’t agree with it and I am warning the OP from falling into idolatry.

Your ignorance of Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition and Holy Orthodoxy is overwhelming. :nope:

 

[Hesychios]

Heyschios,

The Bible is the one you have an issue with, your icons or “windows to Heaven” which transfer when censed into that which you are venerating are the very definition of idolatry. Sorry I don’t agree with it and I am warning the OP from falling into idolatry.

 

[Harpazo]

Heyschios,

The Bible is the one you have an issue with, your icons or “windows to Heaven” which transfer when censed into that which you are venerating are the very definition of idolatry. Sorry I don’t agree with it and I am warning the OP from falling into idolatry.

I have to agree with Mickey on this one. Iconography is a part of the Church, both east and west. In the west, Latin Catholics use statues and in the east they use icons. I myself paint icons as a hobby, and I assure you it is not idolatry. It’s rather rude and ignorant to make such a claim.

Alaha minokhoun
Andrew

 

[lukewarm]

I have to agree with Mickey on this one. Iconography is a part of the Church, both east and west. In the west, Latin Catholics use statues and in the east they use icons. I myself paint icons as a hobby, and I assure you it is not idolatry. It’s rather rude and ignorant to make such a claim.

Alaha minokhoun
Andrew

There is nothing rude about it, it’s a forum we can all have our opinions even if they differ, I haven’t attacked anyone even though I have been personnally insulted twice. I find Catholic statuary and even mor so orthodox use of icons clearly idolatry when using the Bible as a guide. If you don’t agree that is O.K. that is what the board is for, simply laying insults down without addressing the point doesn’t make much sense…

Please show me what I posted that is “ignorant” and “inaccurate”, I was a Catholic for well over 20 years 7 years very devout, I am not ignorant on either East or West’s claims.

 

[Mickey]

There is nothing rude about it

You have accused over one billion Orthodox and Catholics of being idol worshippers. That is rude. That is ignorant. That is serious!

If you were Catholic for that many years, then you know the Scripture and Tradition to support the veneration of the saints. Obviously, you do not accept it. There is no need to insult everyone.

 

[East_and_West]

There is nothing rude about it, it’s a forum we can all have our opinions even if they differ, I haven’t attacked anyone even though I have been personnally insulted twice. I find Catholic statuary and even mor so orthodox use of icons clearly idolatry when using the Bible as a guide. If you don’t agree that is O.K. that is what the board is for, simply laying insults down without addressing the point doesn’t make much sense…

Please show me what I posted that is “ignorant” and “inaccurate”, I was a Catholic for well over 20 years 7 years very devout, I am not ignorant on either East or West’s claims.

What particular passages of scripture cause you to think we are idol worshipers?

 

[lukewarm]

You have accused over one billion Orthodox and Catholics of being idol worshippers. That is rude. That is ignorant. That is serious!

If you were Catholic for that many years, then you know the Scripture and Tradition to support the veneration of the saints. Obviously, you do not accept it. There is no need to insult everyone.

Yes I do feel it is idol worship and against the 2nd Commandment clealry and in simple language.

I explained my position in this thread if you care to look:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=222915&page=3

I’ve see too many statues being crowned and paraded around, people talking to statues, praying and burning candles before them and praying, old women weeping and rubbing the foot of a statue and speaking with it to think that idolatry has not on some levels entered the Catholic Church. And if you’ve ever been to South America or the Phillipines you know it has essentially encompassed the entire Church.

Idolatry was a major reason for me leaving the Catholic Church, the apologetics on it are really pathetic, for years I ignored it and hoped to find a better reasoning, but it always came down to the same tired apologetics on it.

The Bible is clear on it many times, most of the Old Testament deals with the ills of idolatry. Humans love it and it is easy for them to fall into, therefore I can’t think of one good reasons why a Church recommends making graven images, teaching the faithful to offer burnt offerings before it, bow down and pray before the graven image.

I couldn’t ignore what my conscience was telling me, it was wrong and I knew it was wrong. I remember reading in my Missal about a good confession how it explained at the end to look up to a statue of Christ and thank Him for forgiving you. So I did it and I felt completely wrong doing it, I knew what I just did was wrong.

 

[ASimpleSinner]

Yes I do feel it is idol worship and against the 2nd Commandment clealry and in simple language.

I explained my position in this thread if you care to look:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=222915&page=3

I’ve see too many statues being crowned and paraded around, people talking to statues, praying and burning candles before them and praying, old women weeping and rubbing the foot of a statue and speaking with it to think that idolatry has not on some levels entered the Catholic Church. And if you’ve ever been to South America or the Phillipines you know it has essentially encompassed the entire Church.

Idolatry was a major reason for me leaving the Catholic Church, the apologetics on it are really pathetic, for years I ignored it and hoped to find a better reasoning, but it always came down to the same tired apologetics on it.

The Bible is clear on it many times, most of the Old Testament deals with the ills of idolatry. Humans love it and it is easy for them to fall into, therefore I can’t think of one good reasons why a Church recommends making graven images, teaching the faithful to offer burnt offerings before it, bow down and pray before the graven image.

I couldn’t ignore what my conscience was telling me, it was wrong and I knew it was wrong. *** I remember reading in my Missal about a good confession how it explained at the end to look up to a statue of Christ and thank Him for forgiving you.*** So I did it and I felt completely wrong doing it, I knew what I just did was wrong.

I found that last bolded sentence to be so re-gosh-darn-diculous that I think we need to start a new thread on this elsewhere. So that is what I did:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=3447539#post3447539

 

[lukewarm]

I found that last bolded sentence to be so re-gosh-darn-diculous that I think we need to start a new thread on this elsewhere. So that is what I did:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=3447539#post3447539

Think it’s ridiculous all you want, if you own this missal (which Opus Dei uses):

images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.theologicalforum.org/marketplace/images/productphotos/1-890177-50-4.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.theologicalforum.org/marketplace/product_desc.asp%3FSku%3D1-890177-50-4%26Category%3D92&h=267&w=200&sz=69&hl=en&start=39&um=1&tbnid=kdd5LJP6vnvEeM:&tbnh=113&tbnw=85&prev=/images%3Fq%3Ddaily%2Bmissal%26start%3D20%26ndsp%3D20%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN

It is right in the pages of guide to a good confession, I sold the Missal on E-Bay or I would give the page and paragraph.