Fees for Sacraments

[1ke]

Basically it sounds like people might be living “The high life” with God’s $. If the offerings they are receiving are NOT enough to pay the bills then perhaps then there is a problem.

what part of “works of charity” is not clear to you? the offering is not for the priest personally.

If someone wants to give the priest a stipend for his own personal use, they may. But the offering does not go him.

 

[Marauder]

Basically it sounds like people might be living “The high life” with God’s $. If the offerings they are receiving are NOT enough to pay the bills then perhaps then there is a problem.

I don’t think you are understanding the issue. Say you have a church and the electricity expense for a normal month is x. That assumes that the building is only used during certain hours. If there is a wedding with 100+ guests. Starting an hour or so before the wedding you have to turn on the heat/air conditioning. This isn’t cheap. By the time the wedding starts you have to turn on the bright lights. Depending on the size/type of wedding you then have to pay a custodian to clean up after the wedding. The wedding party also probably wants an organist and a singer, who aren’t employees of the church. There are usually stipends associated with them.

Should all this money be coming out of the parish finances? Should they also be coming out of the parish finances if the couple isn’t actually registered at the parish?

This isn’t a small chunk of money, historic churches can have hundreds of weddings a year, only with a small percentage actually involving parishioners of the church.

As has been said before, if there is a real need fees can be waived. Just feeling that you are entitled to it for free doesn’t warrant it being free.

 

[1ke]

I don’t think you are understanding the issue. Say you have a church and the electricity expense for a normal month is x. That assumes that the building is only used during certain hours. If there is a wedding with 100+ guests. Starting an hour or so before the wedding you have to turn on the heat/air conditioning. This isn’t cheap. By the time the wedding starts you have to turn on the bright lights. Depending on the size/type of wedding you then have to pay a custodian to clean up after the wedding. The wedding party also probably wants an organist and a singer, who aren’t employees of the church. There are usually stipends associated with them.

Should all this money be coming out of the parish finances? Should they also be coming out of the parish finances if the couple isn’t actually registered at the parish?

This isn’t a small chunk of money, historic churches can have hundreds of weddings a year, only with a small percentage actually involving parishioners of the church.

As has been said before, if there is a real need fees can be waived. Just feeling that you are entitled to it for free doesn’t warrant it being free.

Lucy isn’t talking about fees.

She is talking about the offering for the sacrament. That is not for the use of the facilities. Its use is determined by the province of bishops, but I’ve never seen it designated for any purpose other than the works of charity fund.

Any fee for the use of the church is separate from the sacramental offering.

 

[Marauder]

Lucy isn’t talking about fees.

Actually she is talking about the fees since she keeps mentioning the cost of the candle. Also some parishes/dioceses lump all the “costs” into one set number, including the customary stipend.

 

[twopekinguys]

Lucy isn’t talking about fees.

She is talking about the offering for the sacrament. That is not for the use of the facilities. Its use is determined by the province of bishops, but I’ve never seen it designated for any purpose other than the works of charity fund.

Any fee for the use of the church is separate from the sacramental offering.

That isn’t the way it works in our diocese. It is one fee. This is from our diocese website.

Offerings for Baptisms, weddings and funerals belong to the parish in which they are
celebrated (c. 531). The priest may opt at the beginning of each fiscal year to retain
these offerings in lieu of the established stole fee allowance. Each priest is to declare
his choice on a form kept at the parish or institution. Deacons and the pastor of the
parish to which they are assigned will establish a policy with regard to stole fees on an
individual basis.

 

[Lapey]

Basically it sounds like people might be living “The high life” with God’s $. If the offerings they are receiving are NOT enough to pay the bills then perhaps then there is a problem.

You don’t know this nor do you have enough information on this thread to make any such accusation against anyone. Furthermore, you evidently have no knowledge of life in a parish these days. The weekend offerings in most parishes do not cover the basic expenses of running a parish.

The parish where I serve takes in about 52% of the total monthly expenses through the collection basket, that’s it. we could cut some expenses, but this would limit the services more, like having no permanently stationed pastor. We had a pastor and two associates just about 15 years ago; we are down to the pastor only.

These “fees” as many keep referring are called stipends, not fees for services. These are recommended and normal donations. As has been stated and you seemed to ignore is the simple fact that if the “fee” is not paid the sacraments is not withheld. I have baptized many children and the parents did not pay because they say they couldn’t. We did not “un-baptize” their children.

Our stipend for a baptism is $10 for a registered and supporting member of the parish, $20 for non-registered and/or non-supporting person. I think that is fair, is $50 fair? I would have to know the particulars to say yes or no.

All of the stipends work the same way, weddings are more for a non-registered non-supporter. If you want the church parish to supply everything without the stipend, give more on Sunday. Until then please keep your judgmental statements to yourself. By the way, you have a log in your eye…

 

[1ke]

That isn’t the way it works in our diocese. It is one fee. This is from our diocese website.

Offerings for Baptisms, weddings and funerals belong to the parish in which they are
celebrated (c. 531). The priest may opt at the beginning of each fiscal year to retain
these offerings in lieu of the established stole fee allowance. Each priest is to declare
his choice on a form kept at the parish or institution. Deacons and the pastor of the
parish to which they are assigned will establish a policy with regard to stole fees on an
individual basis.

Then that is what your province of bishops have decided, which is fine. But they must still follow canon law regarding those not able to pay the offering.

 

[twopekinguys]

Then that is what your province of bishops have decided, which is fine. But they must still follow canon law regarding those not able to pay the offering.

You are absolutely correct, and it is stating in a paragraph or two below what I posted. I just didn’t paste it.

 

[1ke]

Actually she is talking about the fees since she keeps mentioning the cost of the candle. Also some parishes/dioceses lump all the “costs” into one set number, including the customary stipend.

She may be, it seemed she was talking specifically about the mass offering in the OP. And many people use these terms interchangeably.

The best course of action is to see what her particular diocese has to say about the offerings, where they go, who retains them, how much they are, etc. And, of course, to always remember that those who cannot pay an offering are still able to receive the sacraments.

 

[Don_Jackson]

These are not fees for sacraments. These are called offerings, and they are governed by canon law (universal church law) and particular law (diocesan law). The Ordinary (bishop) does indeed establish the offering amount for the diocese, and typically stipulates how the offerings are to be used-- for example, in our diocese the offerings go into the works of charity account, not to the pastor. We use the works of charity fund to give to the poor and needy in our community.

This is the main canon governing the offering for sacraments:

Can.* 848 The minister is to seek nothing for the administration of the sacraments beyond the offerings defined by competent authority, always taking care that the needy are not deprived of the assistance of the sacraments because of poverty.

Please note the last sentence. Those who cannot pay the offering may still receive the sacrament.

I can suggest a couple of things.

First, since you have already talked to your priest, I would encourage you to remind him of the provision in canon 848 regarding inability to give an offering.

Secondly, I suggest you contact the cHancery office or office of judicial vicar or whoever is th head of finances at the diocese and get a copy of any diocesan synod documents or executive decrees from your bishop or other document that specifies these offering in your diocese and how they are to be administered. (ours is in the Finance Manual available online on our diocesan website)

Thirdly, begin to educate parishioners on the offeringm (this would be an excellent role for the members of parish council who are also likely unaware of how this all works), how it is used (often people think the priest is pocketing that money when in fact he is not), why it is asked for/collected, what it is and is not (a fee for a sacrament) and how to receive the sacraments when one cannot afford such an offering.

Fourthly, if you feel the offerings are truly “too high” then I suggest you contact the Diocesan Finance Council AND the Bishop and give them a well-reasoned explanation of your position and suggestions on what you believe the offering should be and why.

Offerings versuses fees…sounds like the State of California, who likes to call taxes fees to end run voter approval.

Yes, talk to the pastor.

 

[cayahoo08]

I don’t think you are understanding the issue. Say you have a church and the electricity expense for a normal month is x. That assumes that the building is only used during certain hours. If there is a wedding with 100+ guests. Starting an hour or so before the wedding you have to turn on the heat/air conditioning. This isn’t cheap. By the time the wedding starts you have to turn on the bright lights. Depending on the size/type of wedding you then have to pay a custodian to clean up after the wedding. The wedding party also probably wants an organist and a singer, who aren’t employees of the church. There are usually stipends associated with them.

Should all this money be coming out of the parish finances? Should they also be coming out of the parish finances if the couple isn’t actually registered at the parish?

This isn’t a small chunk of money, historic churches can have hundreds of weddings a year, only with a small percentage actually involving parishioners of the church.

As has been said before, if there is a real need fees can be waived. Just feeling that you are entitled to it for free doesn’t warrant it being free.

Why did Christ eject the money changers from the Temple ?

 

[Marauder]

Why did Christ eject the money changers from the Temple ?

Because they were being dishonest with money transactions in the temple itself. There is no requirement to pay. Usually the financial transactions don’t take place in the church itself.

I still think it is funny that people see problems paying small fees/stipends/donations for a church but see no problem paying MUCH larger amounts for baptism parties, wedding receptions, etc.

Again, there is no requirement to pay if the person can’t afford it.

 

[cayahoo08]

Because they were being dishonest with money transactions in the temple itself. There is no requirement to pay. Usually the financial transactions don’t take place in the church itself.

I still think it is funny that people see problems paying small fees/stipends/donations for a church but see no problem paying MUCH larger amounts for baptism parties, wedding receptions, etc.

Again, there is no requirement to pay if the person can’t afford it.

Hummmmmmm: Mark 12:18
And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s. And they marvelled at him.

James 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

 

[Marauder]

Hummmmmmm: Mark 12:18
And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s. And they marvelled at him.

James 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

Well the Church wouldn’t have to ask for money for this type of stuff if they did like a certain religion that REQUIRES a 10% tithe to even enter the “temple”. Talk about render to Caesar vs. render to God.

Again, the Catholic Church does not REQUIRE a donation if the person cannot afford it, unlike several other religions.

 

[pablope]

Hummmmmmm: Mark 12:18

And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s. And they marvelled at him.

 

[babochka]

Hello, in my home diocese the parishes have been charging fees for sacraments (these fees are not low either) for example; $50 for baptism, $100 confirmation not including the class fees, $200 for furneral services. These fees are so steep for the local people that they have opted out of either receiving the sacrament/funeral mass, or have gone to a local protestant church for these sacraments. I actually called the parish priest about this and he told me that these were the rules in this diocese. I was very confused about this as I was always under the impression that Sacraments where not to be charged. I understand giving a donation but having a set charged seems unreasonible. Should I be able to talk to someone or do I just sit back and watch the Catholics in my hometown leave the Catholic Church and go to the more welcoming Protestant churches.

I was horrified when I learned that many parishes charge fees for sacraments, religious education classes, etc. (Mine does not.) Even if the parish happily waives the fee for those who cannot afford to pay, just having the fee sets up a barrier for struggling families. Besides, I just think that these things are the responsibility of the parish as a community and should be included in the budget for the parish. Do we charge people to attend Mass? Perhaps we should institute a mileage fee for the homebound to receive the Eucharist. Or charge for the cost of the hosts? We do not have a fee-for-service system. On the other hand… we need to cultivate a culture of giving generously when the collection basket is passed around. Statistically, Catholics give very little compared to other Christians. If we could change that cultural attitude, we could do so much good in our parishes and in the world.

 

[TrueLight]

Yes things cost money. The candle costs money, books cost money, electricity costs money. Different parishes, and dioceses have different ideas on where the money should come from and how much should be suplimented by the parish.

Maurader, I’m quoting you but I’m really responding to everyone who thinks a fee is fine.

Parishioners are regularly supporting the parish with money deducted from their accounts regularly through Parishpay, or through cash offerings. Shouldn’t years of support be enough to cover $50?

If I want to baptize my child, why should there be a fee (offering, stipend, whatever)? Weddings are understandable because people are already spending for a wedding.

Why should someone have to be embarrassed to approach a priest or the office and declare hardship?
A fee should never even appear to be an impediment to receive a sacrament like baptism.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Maurader, I’m quoting you but I’m really responding to everyone who thinks a fee is fine.

Okay, but parishioners are also regularly supporting the parish with money deducted from their accounts regularly through parishpay, or through cash offerings. Shouldn’t years of support be enough to cover $50?

If I want to baptize myself, why should there be a fee (offering whatever)? Weddings are understandable because people are already spending for a wedding.

Why should someone have to be embarrassed to approach a priest or the office and declare hardship?
A fee should never even appear to be an impediment to receive a sacrament like baptism.

I agree. I was never charged at our parish, but out of my own goodwill I just bumped up my monthly contribution for that month for the baptism. I do agree in charging extra for Rites and Ceremonies outside of regular Liturgy schedule, which of course would cost the parish extra in utilities. Also if there are decors for the church. But if the baptism is held during a regularly schedule Liturgy, why charge a lot of money for it?

 

[Marauder]

Parishioners are regularly supporting the parish with money deducted from their accounts regularly through Parishpay, or through cash offerings. Shouldn’t years of support be enough to cover $50?

Other people can argue why should someone that is outside the parish but may want to return be scared away by having to pay a fee to have their kid baptized. So in affect you would have normal paying parish members supporting people that don’t. You can say charge people that haven’t come before higher fees, where do you draw the line? People that have been coming for 3 months, people that have been coming for a year, 3 years? Do you make it a monetary thing? If someone has been giving a dollar for a year, should they be allowed? Should the parish be fully supporting what has become the sad “normal”, parents that show up for baptism, disappear again until 1st communion, then disappear again until confirmation.

In reality things cost money. Ideally you have a parish that takes in the amount it needs. That rarely happens, especially in poor areas. The money has to come from somewhere. In reality most people can afford whatever the parish charges, from what I have seen the actual charge usually varies according the affluence of the area. Even in the higher income areas the prices isn’t that high. Inner city parishes usually charge less then suburban. In affect money from the more affluent areas are supporting the less affluent. Only the church in conjunction with the diocese knows what, if anything it should be charging. As I said before, usually the only people that complain about these issues tend to be the people that CAN easily afford it and/or people that haven’t been supporting their parish. Usually they are the same people that also pay for the expensive baptism party, etc.

 

[ilySHJ]

When I was a young - very broke - mother of three in the late 1980’s, we lived in West Texas, and our parish charged $125 per child for religion class. The money was required up front, so we simply didn’t go. Supporting a family on minimum wage and earning a college degree doesn’t pay the bills much less anything else.

Living in six dioceses over the past 25 years, that was the only one that charged.

The Church always receives the first 10% of my income.

To me it’s wrong for the church to charge for religion classes and very, very wrong to charge for the sacraments.

If possible, find another Catholic Church nearby!