feet being kissed at the foot washing service

[PatienceAndLove]

Really? I thought Holy Thursday was the night he instituted the Eucharist and the Priesthood. I didn’t know he “abolished the roles of … male and female” that night too!

I was thinking the same thing, but I couldn’t articulate it.

 

[benedictgal]

No, after the Gloria they are not to be heard until the Gloria at the Vigil. You could use a clapper or rattle at the Elevation.

I’m curious about that one, though. I tend to guide myself by what is done at St. John Lateran (when the Pope celebrates the Evening Mass of the Lord’s Supper). However, a bell is used and rung three times (with a hammer). I remember hearing it during the consecration.

Regarding the washing of the feet, OCP threw in a brand new wrinkle into all of this. According to its liturgy planner, the USCCB Committee on Liturgy (should read Divine Worship) is allowing for the feet of women to be washed. Like scylla, I have seen no document put forth by the USCCB concerning the manner. Furthermore, the OCP guide makes no mention of Paschale Solemnitatis, but, that’s no surprise.

Now, with regard to Michelle Arnold’s post, I do have an issue with the way she presented it. She did make it seem like the bishops now had the option; however, there was nothing in her link to the article from the Archdiocese of Boston’s newspaper that would explain the whole thing. In fact, there wasn’t even a link in the Archdiocesan newspaper to the official ruling from the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments.

I am a journalist by degree. We were taught to double and triple check our sources before printing anything. It’s not that I don’t trust Michelle Arnold, but, mererly quoting from a diocesan newspaper isn’t enough. You need to go straight to the source. That’s why I like Zenit so much.

 

[japhy]

I’m curious about that one, though. I tend to guide myself by what is done at St. John Lateran (when the Pope celebrates the Evening Mass of the Lord’s Supper). However, a bell is used and rung three times (with a hammer). I remember hearing it during the consecration.

The Sacramentary says the bells should be silent from after the Gloria on Holy Thursday until the Easter Vigil. “Ceremonies of the Liturgical Year”, n. 201 (pp. 100-101) says the same thing.

 

[PaixGioiaAmor]

The Sacramentary says the bells should be silent from after the Gloria on Holy Thursday until the Easter Vigil. “Ceremonies of the Liturgical Year”, n. 201 (pp. 100-101) says the same thing.

BenedictGal et al:
Did it ever ocurr to you that even in Pope Benedict’s diocessan cathedral, not every single detail may be perfect and in accord with documents? The Church is made of human beings, people - and Liturgy IS the work of the people.

No one should be held to the standards of these message boards.

 

[PatienceAndLove]

BenedictGal et al:
Did it ever ocurr to you that even in Pope Benedict’s diocessan cathedral, not every single detail may be perfect and in accord with documents? The Church is made of human beings, people - and Liturgy IS the work of the people.

No one should be held to the standards of these message boards.

Au contraire mon ami!
The Church is held to these standards, as it should be.
If the Church wasn’t supposed to operate in this manner, why does the operation manual list these “details”?

 

[PaixGioiaAmor]

Au contraire mon ami!
The Church is held to these standards, as it should be.
If the Church wasn’t supposed to operate in this manner, why does the operation manual list these “details”?

Well it’s kinda like this …

If a police officer followed your car one evening while you are out doing your shopping and going to dinner, etc, I GUARANTEE you he could write you enough citations to make you sob and drive you bankrupt. “HOW? I don’t speed or run red lights,” you might say back to me. That may be true. But did one of your wheels cross that yellow line while you were making a turn? You are guilty of going left of center. Did you spedometer hit 26 or 27 in that 25 mph zone? You are guilty of speeding. Did all 4 of your wheels come to a COMPLETE, STATIONARY stop BEFORE the white line at each crossing? No one’s do - if you were even ON the white line, you are guilty of going through a stop sign. Did you put your seat belt on BEFORE you put your car in reverse/drive? It’s a shame if you didn’t - because now you are guilty of driving without a seat belt. Oh, and that license plate light that you didn’t even know was out - well thats a violation too.

A police officer enforcing the law to that degree would be insanity - yet it is precisely to that degree that the people of this internet forum expect the liturgical law to be followed.

 

[PatienceAndLove]

Well it’s kinda like this …

If a police officer followed your car one evening while you are out doing your shopping and going to dinner, etc, I GUARANTEE you he could write you enough citations to make you sob and drive you bankrupt. “HOW? I don’t speed or run red lights,” you might say back to me. That may be true. But did one of your wheels cross that yellow line while you were making a turn? You are guilty of going left of center. Did you spedometer hit 26 or 27 in that 25 mph zone? You are guilty of speeding. Did all 4 of your wheels come to a COMPLETE, STATIONARY stop BEFORE the white line at each crossing? No one’s do - if you were even ON the white line, you are guilty of going through a stop sign. Did you put your seat belt on BEFORE you put your car in reverse/drive? It’s a shame if you didn’t - because now you are guilty of driving without a seat belt. Oh, and that license plate light that you didn’t even know was out - well thats a violation too.

A police officer enforcing the law to that degree would be insanity - yet it is precisely to that degree that the people of this internet forum expect the liturgical law to be followed.

However, the police officer has not be charged with helping my immortal soul. So your analogy doesn’t work.

 

[japhy]

Did it ever ocurr to you that even in Pope Benedict’s diocessan cathedral, not every single detail may be perfect and in accord with documents? The Church is made of human beings, people - and Liturgy IS the work of the people. No one should be held to the standards of these message boards.

Au contraire mon ami! The Church is held to these standards, as it should be. If the Church wasn’t supposed to operate in this manner, why does the operation manual list these “details”?

I certainly understand people make mistakes, and the liturgy won’t be perfect. However, this year’s Holy Thursday Mass will most likely adhere to the Church’s own standards more closely than last year’s, if only because there’s a new Master of Papal Ceremonies.

 

[benedictgal]

I certainly understand people make mistakes, and the liturgy won’t be perfect. However, this year’s Holy Thursday Mass will most likely adhere to the Church’s own standards more closely than last year’s, if only because there’s a new Master of Papal Ceremonies.

A big AMEN to that!

However, even though the previous Marini was at last year’s Holy Thursday liturgy (and 2006), it was markedly a lot better with Benedict at the helm. Certainly, the musical selections greatly improved.

I am really looking forward to watching the telecast. I’m thinking of asking DD (darling Dad) to record it for me.

 

[japhy]

But did one of your wheels cross that yellow line while you were making a turn? You are guilty of going left of center.

Did you spedometer hit 26 or 27 in that 25 mph zone? You are guilty of speeding.

Did all 4 of your wheels come to a COMPLETE, STATIONARY stop BEFORE the white line at each crossing?

Did you put your seat belt on BEFORE you put your car in reverse/drive? It’s a shame if you didn’t - because now you are guilty of driving without a seat belt.

Oh, and that license plate light that you didn’t even know was out - well thats a violation too.

A police officer enforcing the law to that degree would be insanity - yet it is precisely to that degree that the people of this internet forum expect the liturgical law to be followed.

And yet, all those laws do exist. Of the ones you mentioned, the hardest two are (in my estimation): not exceeding the speed limit and making sure you stay in your own lane of traffic. It’s very easy to buckle your seatbelt first thing (you just need to remember to do it!) and it’s very easy to come to a complete stop at a stop sign (I’m trying to do it more often). And checking your car regularly for broken lights, etc., is a good idea, if only for your own safety.

What I remember from my driving examination was that I had to follow the rules. I would not have passed my test if I’d run a stop sign or failed to signal or drove too fast or forgot my seatbelt, etc. Is my driver’s license a license to ignore what I learned, and to break specific rules when I feel like it?

See, I’m quite sure priests learn how to correctly celebrate Mass when they’re in the seminary (although I suppose I could be wrong). They don’t learn all that just so that they can ignore it and make up their own order of liturgy. What’s worse is that there’s a double standard being created now that the Extraordinary Form (EF) of Mass can be celebrated more often: bishops are coming up with “competency tests”, to ensure that the priests celebrating the EF know enough Latin, know the rubrics, etc. When was the last time a priest who celebrates the Ordinary Form (OF) of Mass was tested? Why should a priest celebrating the EF be held to a higher standard than a priest celebrating the OF? Shouldn’t they both be held to the same standard of competency? I mean, are the bishops admitting that the OF doesn’t need to be celebrated as carefully or solemnly? Are they admitting that rules can be broken in the OF, but not in the EF?

This is what irritates me.

 

[rpp]

Well it’s kinda like this …

If a police officer followed your car one evening while you are out doing your shopping and going to dinner, etc, I GUARANTEE you he could write you enough citations to make you sob and drive you bankrupt. “HOW? I don’t speed or run red lights,” you might say back to me. That may be true. But did one of your wheels cross that yellow line while you were making a turn? You are guilty of going left of center. Did you spedometer hit 26 or 27 in that 25 mph zone? You are guilty of speeding. Did all 4 of your wheels come to a COMPLETE, STATIONARY stop BEFORE the white line at each crossing? No one’s do - if you were even ON the white line, you are guilty of going through a stop sign. Did you put your seat belt on BEFORE you put your car in reverse/drive? It’s a shame if you didn’t - because now you are guilty of driving without a seat belt. Oh, and that license plate light that you didn’t even know was out - well thats a violation too.

A police officer enforcing the law to that degree would be insanity - yet it is precisely to that degree that the people of this internet forum expect the liturgical law to be followed.

The analogy does not work. You see, the violations you described are probably unintentional and certainly minor. That is quite different than a person who intentionally runs a stop sign or speeds or appears to habitually violate some traffic law. The police officer is not looking for incidental, unintentional gaffs, but serious and/or habitual violations.

A priest who accidentally forgets to say the Creed or unintentionally flubs the prayer of Consecration is not what people are concerned about. Mistakes happen.

It is those who intentionally, even in ignorance, who alter things that many on this forum find annoying.

Additionally, if no one ever complained about improper and illicit liturgical practices, these errors would not only never be corrected, they would multiply.

Finally, Mass is far more important than a drive to the grocery store.

 

[lukewarm]

Well I would think it would have to do with what foot it was, if it was a nice pretty foot with painted toes and pumiced soles maybe. If it were a set of big hairy man feet no way…

This is getting weirder and weirder what will they come up with next? Instead of the priest washing the feet everyone is to give back massages to the parishoner in front of them…

 

[rpp]

Instead of the priest washing the feet everyone is to give back massages to the parishoner in front of them…

Isn’t that what we do to celebrate the feast of St. Masseuse?

 

[PaixGioiaAmor]

The analogy does not work. You see, the violations you described are probably unintentional and certainly minor. That is quite different than a person who intentionally runs a stop sign or speeds or appears to habitually violate some traffic law. The police officer is not looking for incidental, unintentional gaffs, but serious and/or habitual violations.

A priest who accidentally forgets to say the Creed or unintentionally flubs the prayer of Consecration is not what people are concerned about. Mistakes happen.

It is those who intentionally, even in ignorance, who alter things that many on this forum find annoying.

Additionally, if no one ever complained about improper and illicit liturgical practices, these errors would not only never be corrected, they would multiply.

Finally, Mass is far more important than a drive to the grocery store.

You have made my point.

Quite often, when bells are rung during the prohibited time, or someone else forgets some small detail, it happens because of an honest mistake. It happens because for every other mass during the year they ring the bells at that time. So it is reflexive.

 

[scylla]

You have made my point.

Quite often, when bells are rung during the prohibited time, or someone else forgets some small detail, it happens because of an honest mistake. It happens because for every other mass during the year they ring the bells at that time. So it is reflexive.

Yes I agree there is times when mistakes happen. Last Sunday we ran out of hosts since we underestimated the amount of people receiving.
We are human we do make mistakes. We should not get upset, we should just adjust and try to correct the mistakes. I was asked why did this happen, as our liturgist was upset that we had to go to the tabernacle to get hosts. I explained that we ran out and needed more, and informed the person who counts out the hosts that we needed about 20 more. Easy, no need to be upset.

Now deliberate disobedience and non-adherence to doing as we should is wrong and should be pointed out, then corrected.

I am just not attending Holy Thursday Mass at my parish and I will go to a Parish that cares about honoring Christ and His institution of the Ministerial Priesthood, they seem to like to denigrate priests at my parish. No need for me to cause a scene, I just will come back to serve on Sunday.

God Bless
Scylla

 

[Mintaka]

The Vatican has said, again and again, that Catholics have the absolute right not to be subjected to liturgical abuses and deliberate violations of the rubrics.

Every time somebody does something hinky, even if it doesn’t actually make the Mass invalid or illicit, it throws the parishioners off. It forces them to worship wrongly. It separates them from the practices of the Church. The Mass is supposed to be the Mass – not my Mass, not your Mass, not anybody’s artistic outlet. We are supposed to be worshipping God, in the way laid down by God and the Church that He instituted.

It’s not rocket science to do the right thing!

 

[Phemie]

See, I’m quite sure priests learn how to correctly celebrate Mass when they’re in the seminary (although I suppose I could be wrong). They don’t learn all that just so that they can ignore it and make up their own order of liturgy. What’s worse is that there’s a double standard being created now that the Extraordinary Form (EF) of Mass can be celebrated more often: bishops are coming up with “competency tests”, to ensure that the priests celebrating the EF know enough Latin, know the rubrics, etc. When was the last time a priest who celebrates the Ordinary Form (OF) of Mass was tested? Why should a priest celebrating the EF be held to a higher standard than a priest celebrating the OF? Shouldn’t they both be held to the same standard of competency? I mean, are the bishops admitting that the OF doesn’t need to be celebrated as carefully or solemnly? Are they admitting that rules can be broken in the OF, but not in the EF?

This is what irritates me.

Things I see at every single Mass celebrated by my pastor:

• No genuflecting at consecration, just a step back from the altar and a bow. He’s neither old nor disabled. He’s done it this way since I met him 10 years ago.
• Passing the ciborium around to the EMHCs like a candy dish so they can help themselves and they all consume at the same time as he does.

I had to tell him that if he was doing a baptism by immersion, three immersions were necessary and then tell him the difference between the anointing with chrism at baptism and confirmation - he didn’t know that they weren’t both done on the forehead. WHAT, RUBRICS NOT RED ENOUGH?

 

[japhy]

No genuflecting at consecration, just a step back from the altar and a bow. He’s neither old nor disabled. He’s done it this way since I met him 10 years ago.

Even the elderly priests I know genuflect; they hold the altar when they do so, but they do it.

Passing the ciborium around to the EMHCs like a candy dish so they can help themselves and they all consume at the same time as he does.

Ugh. Might as well give 'em vestments too. Or he could take his off.

…if he was doing a baptism by immersion, three immersions were necessary and then tell him the difference between the anointing with chrism at baptism and confirmation - he didn’t know that they weren’t both done on the forehead.

What did he learn, then?

WHAT, RUBRICS NOT RED ENOUGH?

If it doesn’t say “or similar words” (i.e. license to invent) maybe they’re not important…

 

[Teelynn]

I just had a charitable dispute with the head of our Liturgy team (a nun) about lay people washing each other’s feet. I had heard from another member that Fr. was planning on having the congregation participate in washing each other’s feet. I told her this was not in accordance with rubrics. Fr. had to be the one washing feet, and lay people should not be doing this. She disputed that fact and said that this was an optional liturgical correct procedure. She said this symbolizes our service to each other as well. I responded by saying that I can’t stop Fr. from doing this but no it is not correct. Foot washing is supposed to represent Christ’s service to us. This mass is supposed to center on Christ not on us washing each other’s feet. (besides that, after awhile of all these people washing each other’s feet, you forget you’re even at mass!..not to mention The Mass of the Last Supper running into Good Friday morning and we’ll still be washing feet!)

I am trying my darndest not to get myself all worked up over this,
I don’t want to be angry during Holy Week, and I don’t want to ruin my Holy Thursday Mass by going and I’m already upset even before Mass starts!! Pray for me!

She will get back to me with this after talking to Fr. again. Help me out here people. What can I say to her to convince her that this is not correct? (and of course with charity and kindness)

Teelynn

 

[benedictgal]

I just had a charitable dispute with the head of our Liturgy team (a nun) about lay people washing each other’s feet. I had heard from another member that Fr. was planning on having the congregation participate in washing each other’s feet. I told her this was not in accordance with rubrics. Fr. had to be the one washing feet, and lay people should not be doing this. She disputed that fact and said that this was an optional liturgical correct procedure. She said this symbolizes our service to each other as well. I responded by saying that I can’t stop Fr. from doing this but no it is not correct. Foot washing is supposed to represent Christ’s service to us. This mass is supposed to center on Christ not on us washing each other’s feet. (besides that, after awhile of all these people washing each other’s feet, you forget you’re even at mass!..not to mention The Mass of the Last Supper running into Good Friday morning and we’ll still be washing feet!)

I am trying my darndest not to get myself all worked up over this,
I don’t want to be angry during Holy Week, and I don’t want to ruin my Holy Thursday Mass by going and I’m already upset even before Mass starts!! Pray for me!

She will get back to me with this after talking to Fr. again. Help me out here people. What can I say to her to convince her that this is not correct? (and of course with charity and kindness)

Teelynn

You probably should print a copy of Paschale Solemnitatis and give it her. It is not an option and no indult exists for this kind of activity. Here is what PS says regarding the washing of the feet:

1. The washing of the feet of chosen men which, according to tradition, is performed on this day, represents the service and charity of Christ, who came “not to be served, but to serve.” [58] This tradition should be maintained, and its proper significance explained.

Furthermore, the USCCB has this to say:

The rubric for Holy Thursday, under the title WASHING OF FEET, reads:

"Depending on pastoral circumstance, the washing of feet follows the homily. The men who have been chosen (viri selecti) are led by the ministers to chairs prepared at a suitable place. Then the priest (removing his chasuble if necessary) goes to each man. With the help of the ministers he pours water over each one’s feet and dries them."

There is no provision for the laity washing each other’s feet.

Now, PS was brought about in response to abuses that had crept up into Holy Week. It’s the Redemptionis Sacramentum for Holy Week. This is not the time to get creative. We must receive the Tradition that the Church gives us, not make up our own. We are not here to be wowed, but to be wooed.