Female altar servers at Latin Mass

[estesbob]

If the progressives get their way I will be on my way elsewhere…

So all it takes for the gates of hell to prevail against the Church is Female altar servers? Bet Satan is kicking himslef for not having figured that out 2,000 years ago!

 

[scylla]

So all it takes for the gates of hell to prevail against the Church is Female altar servers? Bet Satan is kicking himslef for not having figured that out 2,000 years ago!

No, the gates of hell will never prevail there always will be the Church. It is a step in the wrong direction by seeking change instead of obedience. Were can we go if not the Catholic Church, we must defend it.

We shouldn’t cater to the least we can do for Christ though and just because the Pope allowed it to appease some people, it doesn’t mean it is the best thing to do. We should always seek the best for God.

Modern day Catholics have been infected with the cultures thinking of seeking how much can we push things, instead of seeking obedience. Instead of humilty to do what is best we use pride to see what can we do.

We all need to change our attitude to doing the best and most obedient to Christ and not to do what we want to do.

God Bless
Scylla

 

[Ad_Deum]

“Let TLM be TLM and NOM be NOM, period.”

Pax

 

[stmaria]

I would like to see quotes from Canon Law that answer this question. My Husband says that girls are not allowed to be servers and I say that I want proof, but he doesn’t have all the free time in the world to go looking for it…so if any of you know where it is I would appreciate at least being given a nudge in the right direction.

In 1970 and again in 1980 female altar servers were forbidden. In the mid1980’s I remember seeing altar girls for the first time. This illicit practice was being done to force the Church to allow girls to serve. The same tactic was used in 1964 to force the Church to allow communion in the hand. The theory of those that wish to reform is simple: If you want to introduce a novelty, put it into practice and make it as widespread as possible and eventually the Church will allow it.

Pope John Paul VI September 5, 1970adoremus.org/LiturgicaeInstaurationes.html
Liturgicae Instaurationes 7. In conformity with norms traditional in the Church, women (single, married, religious), whether in churches, homes, convents, schools, or institutions for women, are barred from serving the priest at the altar".

Approved and Confirmed by His Holiness Pope John Paul II April 17, 1980 adoremus.org/InaestimabileDonum.html

*Inaestimabile donum *18
“There are, of course, various roles that women can perform in the liturgical assembly: these include reading the Word of God and proclaiming the intentions of the Prayer of the Faithful. Women are not, however, permitted to act as altar servers”.

VATICAN COMMUNICATION ON FEMALE ALTAR SERVERS-1994 ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDWCOMM.HTM

1. The Holy See respects the decision adopted by certain Bishops for specific local reasons on the basis of the provisions of Canon 230 2. At the same time, however, the Holy See wishes to recall that it will always be very appropriate to follow the noble tradition of having boys serve at the altar. As is well known, this has led to a reassuring development of priestly vocations. Thus the obligation to support such groups of altar boys will always continue.
2. If in some diocese, on the basis of Canon 230 #2, the Bishop permits that, for particular reasons, women may also serve at the altar, this decision must be clearly explained to the faithful, in the light of the above-mentioned norm. It shall also be made clear that the norm is already being widely applied, by the fact that women frequently serve as lectors in the Liturgy and can also be called upon to distribute Holy Communion as Extraordinary Ministers of the Eucharist and to carry out other functions, according to the provisions of the same Canon 230 #3.

This sentence, “ It shall also be made clear that the norm is already being widely applied” shows that altar girls were already being allowed by some Bishops before 1994 . Since women were serving as lectors and distributing communion many Bishops took it upon themselves to also allow altar girls. As I previously stated I first saw altar girls around 1985.

This article may help

adoremus.org/0302Altargirls.html

 

[Contarini]

No.

Females are strictly forbidden to be even in the Sanctuary assisting in any capacity in the TLM.

The ONLY time a female is allowed in the Sanctuary, past the Altar Rail, is after she is baptized, when the priest takes her, freshly cleaned through the Sacrament of Baptism

Right, before her filthy femaleness kicks back in. . . .

And then you guys claim that traditional Catholicism is not misogynistic

This language insults my wife and my daughter and my mother and every other Christian woman.

Edwin

 

[elzoro]

This is a matter of Canon Law, not rubrics.

Under the current Code of Canon Law there is no explicit restriction to females as Altar Servers (there is no explicit allowance of it either). The 1917 Code of Canon Law allowed a woman to give the responses at Mass if a male could not be found (the only situation where I can see this taking place is in a cloistered convent of nuns), but they could not enter the Sanctuary and assist the priest.

So yes, in theory, female servers could be used in the Tridentine Mass, but according to the general opinion on Fr. Zuhlsdorf’s blog if a priest allowed this he wouldnt get out of the church alive.

 

[stmaria]

Originally Posted by Caesar
This is a matter of Canon Law, not rubrics.

Under the current Code of Canon Law there is no explicit restriction to females as Altar Servers (there is no explicit allowance of it either). The 1917 Code of Canon Law allowed a woman to give the responses at Mass if a male could not be found (the only situation where I can see this taking place is in a cloistered convent of nuns), but they could not enter the Sanctuary and assist the priest.

elzoro;2791508
So yes, in theory, female servers could be used in the Tridentine Mass, but according to the general opinion on Fr. Zuhlsdorf’s blog if a priest allowed this he wouldnt get out of the church alive.

Read what is in bold. Your theory is not exactly right.It would be hard to be an altar girl if she is not allowed to enter the sanctuary.

 

[elzoro]

Excellent entry. Before 1994, the situation was this. If there were no males to serve, females may say the RESPONSES ONLY, but, NOT IN THE SANCTUARY acting like little altar girls. The responses were made from behind some barrier, so that they were not in any way IN THE SANCTUARY----since,at least for the last 2000 years or so, the wisdom of the Saints beleivd that if girls served in the sanctuary, on the altar—they should also recieve minor orders and then the preisthood since “lex orandi, lex credendi”----so they were not allowed. Of course in the Springtime of Vatican II, it’s allowed in the Novus Ordo, NOT the Traditional Mass.

 

[Sure]

1. If in some diocese, on the basis of Canon 230 #2, the Bishop permits that, for particular reasons, women may also serve at the altar, this decision must be clearly explained to the faithful, in the light of the above-mentioned norm. It shall also be made clear that the norm is already being widely applied, by the fact that women frequently serve as lectors in the Liturgy and can also be called upon to distribute Holy Communion as Extraordinary Ministers of the Eucharist and to carry out other functions, according to the provisions of the same Canon 230 #3.

This sentence, “ It shall also be made clear that the norm is already being widely applied” shows that altar girls were already being allowed by some Bishops before 1994 . Since women were serving as lectors and distributing communion many Bishops took it upon themselves to also allow altar girls. As I previously stated I first saw altar girls around 1985.

This article may help

adoremus.org/0302Altargirls.html

This doesn’t say what you are saying. The complete sentance is: “It shall also be made clear that the norm is already being widely applied by the fact that women frequently serve as lectors in the Liturgy and can also be called upon to distribute Holy Communion as Extraordinary Ministers of the Eucharist and to carry out other functions, according to the provisions of the same Canon 230 #3.”

This says that the norm of allowing women to serve different roles in the liturgy is already being done with readers and extraordinary ministers of Holy Communion. By expanding this same “norm” to altar servers, the Church is acknowledging this fact.

And the reason you saw altar girls in the mid-80’s is that some bishops interpreted Canon Law to read that they were permissible. This interpretation was confirmed to be correct in 1994. That does not mean it was not permitted before 1994, it means that the Church said in 1994, "yes, the code of canon law in 1983 does, in fact, allow for women to serve at the altar.

This is a discipline of the Church that can be changed by the Holy Father through Canon law and his interpretation of it.

**ONE FINAL POINT:

Who serves at the altar is determined by canon law. Current canon law allows for women to serve as altar servers. This means women can serve at the altar for any forms of the Latin Rite Mass whether it be ordinary or extraordinary.**

 

[AJV]

No.

Females are strictly forbidden to be even in the Sanctuary assisting in any capacity in the TLM.

The ONLY time a female is allowed in the Sanctuary, past the Altar Rail, is after she is baptized, when the priest takes her, freshly cleaned through the Sacrament of Baptism

I can see laying or holding before the altar, but on ?!!! Besides, isn’t this extra-rubrical? Could you please whether there is a particul;ar rubric or decree that provides the authority for this?

 

[stmaria]

Excellent entry. Before 1994, the situation was this. If there were no males to serve, females may say the RESPONSES ONLY, but, NOT IN THE SANCTUARY acting like little altar girls. The responses were made from behind some barrier, so that they were not in any way IN THE SANCTUARY----since,at least for the last 2000 years or so, the wisdom of the Saints beleivd that if girls served in the sanctuary, on the altar—they should also recieve minor orders and then the preisthood since “lex orandi, lex credendi”----so they were not allowed. Of course in the Springtime of Vatican II, it’s allowed in the Novus Ordo, NOT the Traditional Mass.

I agree completely. The decision to allow altar girls has without a doubt caused the severe priest shortage in the OF. The Church knows this and yet allows it to continue. Even in the document of 1994 it is stated.
VATICAN COMMUNICATION ON FEMALE ALTAR SERVERS-1994
2) The Holy See respects the decision adopted by certain Bishops for specific local reasons on the basis of the provisions of Canon 230 2. At the same time, however, the Holy See wishes to recall that it will always be very appropriate to follow the noble tradition of having boys serve at the altar. As is well known, this has led to a reassuring development of priestly vocations. Thus the obligation to support such groups of altar boys will always continue."

When I was still going to the OF, all I saw was altar girls at every Mass. Pope Benedict needs to enforce the old law and bring back altar boys to the OF.

 

[Sure]

I agree completely. The decision to allow altar girls has without a doubt caused the severe priest shortage in the OF. The Church knows this and yet allows it to continue. Even in the document of 1994 it is stated.
VATICAN COMMUNICATION ON FEMALE ALTAR SERVERS-1994
2) The Holy See respects the decision adopted by certain Bishops for specific local reasons on the basis of the provisions of Canon 230 2. At the same time, however, the Holy See wishes to recall that it will always be very appropriate to follow the noble tradition of having boys serve at the altar. As is well known, this has led to a reassuring development of priestly vocations. Thus the obligation to support such groups of altar boys will always continue."

When I was still going to the OF, all I saw was altar girls at every Mass. Pope Benedict needs to enforce the old law and bring back altar boys to the OF.

If allowing girls to serve at the altar has decreased the number of priests, then why were there more priests ordained and more seminarians in 2000 than in 1970???

 

[stmaria]

Sure;2791603]This doesn’t say what you are saying. The complete sentance is: "It shall also be made clear that the norm is already being widely applied by the fact that women frequently serve as lectors in the Liturgy and can also be called upon to distribute Holy Communion as Extraordinary Ministers of the Eucharist

and to carry out other functions, according to the provisions of the same Canon 230 #3."

This says that the norm of allowing women to serve different roles in the liturgy is already being done with readers and extraordinary ministers of Holy Communion. By expanding this same “norm” to altar servers, the Church is acknowledging this fact.

And the reason you saw altar girls in the mid-80’s is that some bishops interpreted Canon Law to read that they were permissible. This interpretation was confirmed to be correct in 1994. That does not mean it was not permitted before 1994, it means that the Church said in 1994, "yes, the code of canon law in 1983 does, in fact, allow for women to serve at the altar.

Show me how a Bishop can interpret any of the following in such a way that it allows altar girls? It is an absolute stretch to make that assumption. The Bishops had an agenda and they interpreted it the way they wanted.It was a terrible decision by Pope John Paul to allow this to happen. His interpretation of Canon Law 230 is a very liberal one.

Can. 230 §1. Lay men who possess the age and qualifications established by decree of the conference of bishops can be admitted on a stable basis through the prescribed liturgical rite to the ministries of lector and acolyte.
Nevertheless, the conferral of these ministries does not grant them the right to obtain support or remuneration from the Church.
§2. Lay persons can fulfill the function of lector in liturgical actions by temporary designation. All lay persons can also perform the functions of commentator or cantor, or other functions, according to the norm of law.
§3. When the need of the Church warrants it and ministers are lacking, lay persons, even if they are not lectors or acolytes, can also supply certain of their duties, namely, to exercise the ministry of the word, to preside offer liturgical prayers, to confer baptism, and to distribute Holy Communion, according to the prescripts of the law"

From the following link: adoremus.org/0302Altargirls.html

“The interpretation by the PCILT was apparently based on its reading of a sub-canon in the 1983 Code of Canon Law concerned with “other functions” in the liturgy at which lay people are allowed to assist. The first and principal part of the canon in question (c.230.1) specifies that only lay men (viri laici) can be “installed” permanently in the Church ministries of lector and acolyte; but then the next sub-canon (c.230.2) says that lay persons (laici) can fulfill these functions “by temporary deputation”. Thus, it was decided, females are not explicitly excluded from these functions by canon law, even if they may not be installed as such.
Once the question was framed in this way, even Pope John Paul II no doubt felt pressure to concede that canon law did not explicitly exclude females from performing any liturgical functions that do not require ordination.”

Clearly a very liberal interpretation that the vanishing priesthood has come to regret.

 

[stmaria]

If allowing girls to serve at the altar has decreased the number of priests, then why were there more priests ordained and more seminarians in 2000 than in 1970???

·Ordinations. In 1965, 1,575 new priests were ordained in the United States. In 2002, the number was** 450**. In 1965, only 1 percent of U.S. parishes were without a priest. Today, there are 3,000 priestless parishes, 15 percent of all U.S. parishes.
·
·Seminarians. Between 1965 and 2002, the number of seminarians dropped from 49,000 to 4,700, a decline of over 90 percent. Two-thirds of the 600 seminaries that were operating in 1965 have now closed.
worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=29948

 

[Sure]

.

Show me how a Bishop can interpret any of the following in such a way that it allows altar girls? It is an absolute stretch to make that assumption. The Bishops had an agenda and they interpreted it the way they wanted.It was a terrible decision by Pope John Paul to allow this to happen. His interpretation of Canon Law 230 is a very liberal one.

Can. 230 §1. Lay men who possess the age and qualifications established by decree of the conference of bishops can be admitted on a stable basis through the prescribed liturgical rite to the ministries of lector and acolyte.
Nevertheless, the conferral of these ministries does not grant them the right to obtain support or remuneration from the Church.
§2. Lay persons can fulfill the function of lector in liturgical actions by temporary designation. All lay persons can also perform the functions of commentator or cantor, or other functions, according to the norm of law.
§3. When the need of the Church warrants it and ministers are lacking, lay persons, even if they are not lectors or acolytes, can also supply certain of their duties, namely, to exercise the ministry of the word, to preside offer liturgical prayers, to confer baptism, and to distribute Holy Communion, according to the prescripts of the law"

From the following link: adoremus.org/0302Altargirls.html

“The interpretation by the PCILT was apparently based on its reading of a sub-canon in the 1983 Code of Canon Law concerned with “other functions” in the liturgy at which lay people are allowed to assist. The first and principal part of the canon in question (c.230.1) specifies that only lay men (viri laici) can be “installed” permanently in the Church ministries of lector and acolyte; but then the next sub-canon (c.230.2) says that lay persons (laici) can fulfill these functions “by temporary deputation”. Thus, it was decided, females are not explicitly excluded from these functions by canon law, even if they may not be installed as such.
Once the question was framed in this way, even Pope John Paul II no doubt felt pressure to concede that canon law did not explicitly exclude females from performing any liturgical functions that do not require ordination.”

Clearly a very liberal interpretation that the vanishing priesthood has come to regret.

Well, the Pope is the Supreme Legislator of Canon Law and you are not. His interpretation is always correct and always authoritative whether you think it is liberal or not doesn’t matter.

You keep saying that the priesthood is vanishing and yet, more priests are being ordained throughout the world now than in 1970. SO, how exactly have altar girls (which didn’t exist in 1970) caused the number of priests to decline when the number of ordinations has gone UP…a lot. You can’t say that it causes something that is contradicted by statistics.

 

[Sure]

·Ordinations. In 1965, 1,575 new priests were ordained in the United States. In 2002, the number was** 450**. In 1965, only 1 percent of U.S. parishes were without a priest. Today, there are 3,000 priestless parishes, 15 percent of all U.S. parishes.
·
·Seminarians. Between 1965 and 2002, the number of seminarians dropped from 49,000 to 4,700, a decline of over 90 percent. Two-thirds of the 600 seminaries that were operating in 1965 have now closed.
worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=29948

Ahh…I am looking at worldwide statistics. Since the Church is after all worldwide and canon law covers the entire Latin Church not just the US.

1970 = 4,622 ordinations, 419,728 total priests
2000 = 6,814 ordinations, 405,178 total priests, 55,968 seminarians

vocation.com/content-amnv.htm

Oh, and just to be clear, in the US in 1965 there were 8,325 grad-level seminarians and in 2005, there were 3,308 grad-level seminarians.

Obviously, there is a lack of vocations in many places around the world. But there really isn’t any correlation that shows a decline “caused” by women serving at the altar.

 

[scylla]

Right, before her filthy femaleness kicks back in. . . .

And then you guys claim that traditional Catholicism is not misogynistic

This language insults my wife and my daughter and my mother and every other Christian woman.

Edwin

Only if you buy into the secular culture thought of men and women being the same.

Men and women are different and have different roles in the Church. The reason for women not being on the altar is not because they are unclean. The only way this can be taken as insulting is if you misrepresent Catholic belief that way.
I think the poster did a bad job of presenting why women are not allowed. It is not uncleanliness it is because it is the altar of sacrifice, which is made primarily for Priests.

It doesn’t insult your wife but it insults the men who are not manly enought to stand up and do their job, we have plenty of guys not doing their jobs as Christian men these days and the women seem to be the ones who are stepping up.

In Christ
Scylla

 

[stmaria]

Sure;2791787]Ahh…I am looking at worldwide statistics. Since the Church is after all worldwide and canon law covers the entire Latin Church not just the US.

1970 = 4,622 ordinations, 419,728 total priests
2000 = 6,814 ordinations, 405,178 total priests, 55,968 seminarians

vocation.com/content-amnv.htm

Oh, and just to be clear, in the US in 1965 there were 8,325 grad-level seminarians and in 2005, there were 3,308 grad-level seminarians.

There are almost3 billion more people on earth now then in 1970 therfore there are more Catholics. So in 2000 worldwide there were only 2,200 more ordinations then in 1970 in spite of the fact the worlds population has grown almost 3 billion? And in 2000 there were only 15,000 more priests then in 1970? I am not impressed.

World Population Growth
1970 3.7 billion
1975 4 billion
1980 4.5 billion
1985 4.85 billion
1990 5.3 billion
1995 5.7 billion
1999 6 billion
2000 6.1 billion

 

[Sure]

There are almost3 billion more people on earth now then in 1970 therfore there are more Catholics. So in 2000 worldwide there were only 2,200 more ordinations then in 1970 in spite of the fact the worlds population has grown almost 3 billion? And in 2000 there were only 15,000 more priests then in 1970? I am not impressed.

World Population Growth
1970 3.7 billion
1975 4 billion
1980 4.5 billion
1985 4.85 billion
1990 5.3 billion
1995 5.7 billion
1999 6 billion
2000 6.1 billion

Oh yes, I understand that we don’t have nearly enough priests and we ll need to pray for vocations.

I am just disputing that altar girls is a cause. Since they didn’t really come around until the mid-80’s as you noted, I would think that there would be a decrease in the number of vocations between 1985 and 2000, but there isn’t.

1985 - When altar girls start becoming common = 1 ordination for every 176,690 Catholics.

2000 - 15 years of altar girls = 1 ordination for every 153,360 Catholics

You can’t make a case that fewer men are being ordained because of altar girls when proportionally more men are being ordained.

 

[kleary]

I can see laying or holding before the altar, but on ?!!! Besides, isn’t this extra-rubrical? Could you please whether there is a particul;ar rubric or decree that provides the authority for this?

I will ask my pastor. The newly baptized infant is absolutely clean from original and actual sin, and yes- the child is laid upon the altar of sacrifice after baptism and blessed personally by the priest. This practice is customary I believe and not in the Rituale Romanum. But I will find out.

Ken