Female altar servers at Latin Mass

[LovedMyAlydar]

I don’t take the stance of no women on the altar as insulting at all. Men and women are different, we are not the same. Men can’t give birth can they? No, it is women who bring new life into the world, an awesome gift in itself. Women are the nuturing part of the church, they can become sisters who care for the sick, teach the children, etc.

I don’t see any place for girls on the altar in a TLM. As mentioned previously serving at the altar is preparation for some boys to priesthood. I have two sons who serve and both have expressed an interest in one day becoming a priest. They talk to Father about it and they enjoy the male bonding so to speak during practice sessions, etc.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

For the sake of vocations, I think it is prudentially better if we only have male altar servers. And I think we’d have more interested if their fathers would serve with them, in teams. There are other things that women can do in and for the Church.

 

[otjm]

·Ordinations. In 1965, 1,575 new priests were ordained in the United States. In 2002, the number was** 450**. In 1965, only 1 percent of U.S. parishes were without a priest. Today, there are 3,000 priestless parishes, 15 percent of all U.S. parishes.
·
·Seminarians. Between 1965 and 2002, the number of seminarians dropped from 49,000 to 4,700, a decline of over 90 percent. Two-thirds of the 600 seminaries that were operating in 1965 have now closed.
worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=29948

The statistics I have, from CARA, show that 994 priests were ordained in 1965. The do not show data for 2002 in the report. In 2000 they show 442 ordinations, and in 2005, 454. Your decline of 95% shows in part the closures of high school seminaries.

They also show Graduate level seminarians (that is, they exclude high school and college seminarians) as being 8,325 in 1965. Again, they do not show 2002; in 2000 they show 3,474 and in 2005 they show 3,308.

As to parishes, they show a little over 17% without a pastor in 2005, as opposed to a little over 3% without a pastor in 1965. There is also an increase of 7% of actual parishes (more in 2005 than in 1965), or a total growth of 1254. If one were to exclude the total growth of parishes, there are only 10.57% vacant.

 

[kleary]

All I will say as per this thread is go ahead and try it. Go ahead and attempt to do it.

Go get a liberal Canon Lawyer and prove your case. Fight to allow all the new innovations currently allowed under Canon Law for the Novus Ordo- such as altar girls, communion in the hand and lay ministers of Holy Communion.

The current locations that have had the TLM since the Ecclesia Dei Indult will continue to refuse to allow any of this, that is for sure. What you will see is those currently attending Mass at SSPX and “independant” chapels continue to go there. Those who currently drive 50 plus miles to the Indult Mass will continue to do so, or return to doing so if such things happen.

Any priest being trained for the TLM, and any of the persons assisting him in bringing the TLM to the local parishes will be well aware of the prohibition of such things. You may go and argue your case to the Bishop, but I fear that if you do the priest and people involved with the TLM will simply stop having it if ordered to allow such innovations.

Eventually the Ecclesia Dei Commission will be made aware, if they are not made aware of such questions already. Let us hope and pray they make the correct decision to ban all new innovations creeping into the TLM.

Ken

 

[otjm]

All I will say as per this thread is go ahead and try it. Go ahead and attempt to do it.

Go get a liberal Canon Lawyer and prove your case. Fight to allow all the new innovations currently allowed under Canon Law for the Novus Ordo- such as altar girls, communion in the hand and lay ministers of Holy Communion.

The current locations that have had the TLM since the Ecclesia Dei Indult will continue to refuse to allow any of this, that is for sure. What you will see is those currently attending Mass at SSPX and “independant” chapels continue to go there. Those who currently drive 50 plus miles to the Indult Mass will continue to do so, or return to doing so if such things happen.

Any priest being trained for the TLM, and any of the persons assisting him in bringing the TLM to the local parishes will be well aware of the prohibition of such things. You may go and argue your case to the Bishop, but I fear that if you do the priest and people involved with the TLM will simply stop having it if ordered to allow such innovations.

Eventually the Ecclesia Dei Commission will be made aware, if they are not made aware of such questions already. Let us hope and pray they make the correct decision to ban all new innovations creeping into the TLM.

Ken

I suspect that you are right, those who wish to go to the EF will not want girl altar servers.

However, one does not have to be a liberal Canon lawyer to follow the law. And bringing back the EF did not bring back the prior code of Canon law. The rubrics of the EF, just as the rubrics of the OF, are not prescribed by Canon Law. As to the prohibition, it does not seem that one currently exists, no matter how fervantly one might wish so. On the other hand, given that custom wold indicate that girls not serve, one would assume that where the custom is established - as you note, in Indult parishes - one would reasonably presume the custom would continue.

 

[PoliSciProf]

There is some interesting hair splitting going on here in these posts. After reflecting on this dialogue, I think current canon law must apply. To say otherwise is in effect a backdoor way to nullify the understanding of the roles of girls (not women, please) in the liturgy as now understood by the Church. And, I don’t think the Church was duped by or was afraid of what some have called “liberal” or “progressives.” So there is no mistaking of my intentions, I am STRONGLY in favor of the TLM and I am most certainly NOT seeking women priests.

On a practical note, I wonder what one would say to a pious and respectful girl altar server who takes her role with great seriousness and perhaps is considering becoming a nun (this is not a very hypothetical hypothetical) who asks to continue her service by doing her same role in the TLM? And, perhaps she is most willing to memorize the Latin responses (as I had to do with no real understanding). Quoting superceded rules risks doing some harm.

I am also persuaded that the vocation argument is nonsense. To keep this posting as brief as possible, I will leave this as an assertion.

By the way, I am the only one troubled by the tone of some these posts? To wit, the people will not permit this?! One poster mentioned that if a priest permitted this “abuse” “he would not get out the church alive.” Calm down and stop uttering such sixties-like absurdities. Let’s have some perspective and common sense here. Enjoy and be grateful for the Latin mass.

 

[kleary]

There is some interesting hair splitting going on here in these posts. After reflecting on this dialogue, I think current canon law must apply. To say otherwise is in effect a backdoor way to nullify the understanding of the roles of girls (not women, please) in the liturgy as now understood by the Church. And, I don’t think the Church was duped by or was afraid of what some have called “liberal” or “progressives.” So there is no mistaking of my intentions, I am STRONGLY in favor of the TLM and I am most certainly NOT seeking women priests.

On a practical note, I wonder what one would say to a pious and respectful girl altar server who takes her role with great seriousness and perhaps is considering becoming a nun (this is not a very hypothetical hypothetical) who asks to continue her service by doing her same role in the TLM? And, perhaps she is most willing to memorize the Latin responses (as I had to do with no real understanding). Quoting superceded rules risks doing some harm.

I am also persuaded that the vocation argument is nonsense. To keep this posting as brief as possible, I will leave this as an assertion.

By the way, I am the only one troubled by the tone of some these posts? To wit, the people will not permit this?! One poster mentioned that if a priest permitted this “abuse” “he would not get out the church alive.” Calm down and stop uttering such sixties-like absurdities. Let’s have some perspective and common sense here. Enjoy and be grateful for the Latin mass.

As I said, just try and do it. You will be turned away.- do not be offended when YOU ARE TOLD NO. Just like the guy who plays guitar at the local parish- he will be told “pack up your guitar and go home”. This was said on EWTN by some priest from the FSSP I forget which one.

Ken

 

[Sure]

As I said, just try and do it. You will be turned away.- do not be offended when YOU ARE TOLD NO. Just like the guy who plays guitar at the local parish- he will be told “pack up your guitar and go home”. This was said on EWTN by some priest from the FSSP I forget which one.

Ken

I think you misunderstand. No one here is advocating that women should serve at the altar for the EF. But it is definitely allowed accroding to current canon law. And that is what the original poster asked.

Allowed? = Yes

Probable? = No

Advisable? = No

 

[mao_now]

There is some interesting hair splitting going on here in these posts. After reflecting on this dialogue, I think current canon law must apply. To say otherwise is in effect a backdoor way to nullify the understanding of the roles of girls (not women, please) in the liturgy as now understood by the Church. And, I don’t think the Church was duped by or was afraid of what some have called “liberal” or “progressives.” So there is no mistaking of my intentions, I am STRONGLY in favor of the TLM and I am most certainly NOT seeking women priests.

On a practical note, I wonder what one would say to a pious and respectful girl altar server who takes her role with great seriousness and perhaps is considering becoming a nun (this is not a very hypothetical hypothetical) who asks to continue her service by doing her same role in the TLM? And, perhaps she is most willing to memorize the Latin responses (as I had to do with no real understanding). Quoting superceded rules risks doing some harm.

I am also persuaded that the vocation argument is nonsense. To keep this posting as brief as possible, I will leave this as an assertion.

By the way, I am the only one troubled by the tone of some these posts? To wit, the people will not permit this?! One poster mentioned that if a priest permitted this “abuse” “he would not get out the church alive.” Calm down and stop uttering such sixties-like absurdities. Let’s have some perspective and common sense here. Enjoy and be grateful for the Latin mass.

Go ahead and try it…
You are right. the People are not going to allow it. We have waited too long for this. Especially since it is well known you can have all the liturgical innovation you want, in the OF…

To try to introduce these abuses in the EF is just Evil. plain and simple…sorry thats my take on it. Otherwise why would you try it.? When, you can go down to any N.O parish and experiment too your hearts content.

Speakin of 60’s radicalism…like I posted earlier. cut out the inside of a Missal, A brick fits nicely in there…

Brings back to mind, the black panther chant from the 60’s…( I saw it in a documentary, about the movement)
"The revolution’s begun!!! …Time to get the guns!!!..LOL
perhaps this will be the rallying cry of traditionalists, when “they” try to corrupt the Mass of Pope St. Pius V.

 

[Sure]

Ok…what is with this violent talk being spilled about by traditionalists on this board. If the Church allows things in canon law that you personally don’t like, then you’re going to get violent???

Get a grip, people.

 

[estesbob]

Ok…what is with this violent talk being spilled about by traditionalists on this board. If the Church allows things in canon law that you personally don’t like, then you’re going to get violent???

Get a grip, people.

Makes you wonder whether the Pope should have taken the steps he did. From reading the posts on this board he reached out and got slapped in the face and return. [Edited by Moderator] It appears that far too many people worship a Mass rather than worship the Lord.

 

[stmaria]

As I said, just try and do it. You will be turned away.- do not be offended when YOU ARE TOLD NO. Just like the guy who plays guitar at the local parish- he will be told “pack up your guitar and go home”. This was said on EWTN by some priest from the FSSP I forget which one.
Ken

I also heard that from the FSSP priest. Therefore I believe it is save to assume that if a guitar is forbidden in the EF then altar girls and communion in the hand will also be forbidden.

 

[Sure]

I also heard that from the FSSP priest. Therefore I believe it is save to assume that if a guitar is forbidden in the EF then altar girls and communion in the hand will also be forbidden.

There is no law or rubric forbidding a guitar in the EF Mass. So, it technically is allowed, BUT it is also a VERY inappropriate choice of music and the priest would be well within his rights to tell the musician to stop. Just as a priest can also decline to use altar girls, as well. There is a difference between not allowed by canon law and not a good idea. Let’s PLEASE keep clear on the difference here.

Communion in the hand would be a separate issue. I would propose that since priests are not to refuse Holy Communion to those who choose to kneel, they should also not refuse those who choose to receive in the hand since our Holy Mother Church has declared such a thing to be acceptable.

 

[bpbasilphx]

<<
It would be a betrayal to the faith>>

Please be specific and tell us WHAT points of dogma or faith are “betrayed” by having female servers in a Latin mass?

The Deity of the Son? The Hypostatic Union? The Virgin Birth? The Resurrection?

Please clarify. Quote the apporpriate works from the Fathers, the Councils, or the Magisterium in your answer.

 

[Sure]

<<
It would be a betrayal to the faith>>

Please be specific and tell us WHAT points of dogma or faith are “betrayed” by having female servers in a Latin mass?

The Deity of the Son? The Hypostatic Union? The Virgin Birth? The Resurrection?

Please clarify. Quote the apporpriate works from the Fathers, the Councils, or the Magisterium in your answer.

I’m sure you will get lots of response quoting all sorts of documents, but none of them trump the current code of canon law in which such things are specified. The current code allows for women to act as altar servers in Masses of the Latin Rite. The Latin Rite includes both the ordinary and extraordinary form.

 

[stmaria]

There is no law or rubric forbidding a guitar in the EF Mass. So, it technically is allowed, BUT it is also a VERY inappropriate choice of music and the priest would be well within his rights to tell the musician to stop. Just as a priest can also decline to use altar girls, as well. There is a difference between not allowed by canon law and not a good idea. Let’s PLEASE keep clear on the difference here.

Communion in the hand would be a separate issue. I would propose that since priests are not to refuse Holy Communion to those who choose to kneel, they should also not refuse those who choose to receive in the hand since our Holy Mother Church has declared such a thing to be acceptable.

I am quite sure that the FSSP priest that was on EWTN discussing the EF if fully aware of Canon Law. A man that plays guitar in the OF called and said he wanted to play the guitar in the EF. Both Priests, one FSSP the other from Pius V { whatever that other organization is called that celebrates the EF] said the guitar is not allowed in the EF. I wish someone had called in about altar girls and communion in the hand. I just can’t believe it will be allowed.

 

[Sure]

I am quite sure that the FSSP priest that was on EWTN discussing the EF if fully aware of Canon Law. A man that plays guitar in the OF called and said he wanted to play the guitar in the EF. Both Priests, one FSSP the other from Pius V { whatever that other organization is called that celebrates the EF] said the guitar is not allowed in the EF. I wish someone had called in about altar girls and communion in the hand. I just can’t believe it will be allowed.

I understand that is what he said about the guitar. I am just curious as to what canon or rubric we can find that details such a prohibition. It may exist, I am just not aware of it.

Even Fr. Z admits that since altar girls are allowed under canon law, that it would apply to all Latin Rite Masses, certainly though a priest would not have any obligation to use altar girls. Communion in the hand would be allowed, as well. Because again that indult applies to the Latin Rite which includes both forms.

The other priest was probably from the Institute of Christ the King which also celebrates the 1962 missal.

 

[mao_now]

I am quite sure that the FSSP priest that was on EWTN discussing the EF if fully aware of Canon Law. A man that plays guitar in the OF called and said he wanted to play the guitar in the EF. Both Priests, one FSSP the other from Pius V { whatever that other organization is called that celebrates the EF] said the guitar is not allowed in the EF. I wish someone had called in about altar girls and communion in the hand. I just can’t believe it will be allowed.

You are right, St.maria.
They know its not allowed, But you can bet they are gonna try it…Even though, they can go to any Novus Ordo parish and, have all the Females on on the Altar they want…

[Edited by Moderator]

Just look at how people on this thread are splitting hairs over canon law…trying to justify girl altar boys, in the TLM…
[Edited by Moderator]

 

[mao_now]

Makes you wonder whether the Pope should have taken the steps he did. From reading the posts on this board he reached out and got slapped in the face and return. [Edited by Moderator]. It appears that far too many people worship a Mass rather than worship the Lord.

O f course He should have taken the steps he did!!..We just are not going to stand by, and allow this great gift , of his…( summorum pontificum)…to be ruined and corrupted, by insane 21st cent. Americans!!

I say Insane for this reason…
Altar girls at the TLM???..Who could even contemplate something so crazy!!!

 

[Sure]

You are right, St.maria.
They know its not allowed, But you can bet they are gonna try it…Even though, they can go to any Novus Ordo parish and, have all the Females on on the Altar they want…

[Edited by Moderator]

Just look at how people on this thread are splitting hairs over canon law…trying to justify girl altar boys, in the TLM…
[Edited by Moderator]

No one here (to my knowledge) is advocating that these things be implemented. We are just stating what the law states regarding them. I think it’s been stated a few times that adopting some of these LAWFUL practices is NOT advisable.