Female altar servers at Latin Mass

[KathleenElsie]

Right, before her filthy femaleness kicks back in. . . .

And then you guys claim that traditional Catholicism is not misogynistic

This language insults my wife and my daughter and my mother and every other Christian woman.

Edwin

I am a woman and I agree that women do no belong at the altar. No insult taken here from this prohibition. I AM A WOMAN and have a special place in God’s plan. I am grateful that God has plans for each gender and one size does not fit all.

 

[KathleenElsie]

Nowadays, boys are so much more involved in sports, clubs at school, etc. Since many boys do not even have the motivation to serve at the OF, which requires very little training, it will probably be difficult to find boys who are willing to go through the training necessary to learn how to serve at the EF. I suspect that most servers at the EF will be men who served when they were boys.

Laura, We attend different Masses or Liturgies. The NO (the boys are altar boys) the Byzantine Rite (the boys are being trained as altar servers also) and the TLM (they want to learn to serve this one also) each form excites the boys and they look forward to being able to serve. The boys are homeschooled in the classic Catholic curriculum and have been taught that serving at Mass or Liturgy is a great privilege.

IMHO serving is not made special enough for the average boy and thus they look for other “more” meaningful things to do in our “secular” society. Bring back the specialness of being an altar-boy and they will come.

 

[lak611]

Laura, We attend different Masses or Liturgies. The NO (the boys are altar boys) the Byzantine Rite (the boys are being trained as altar servers also) and the TLM (they want to learn to serve this one also) each form excites the boys and they look forward to being able to serve. The boys are homeschooled in the classic Catholic curriculum and have been taught that serving at Mass or Liturgy is a great privilege.

IMHO serving is not made special enough for the average boy and thus they look for other “more” meaningful things to do in our “secular” society. Bring back the specialness of being an altar-boy and they will come.

I think it is great that your boys are interested (perhaps because you home school). However, what would be the best way to get boys interested when they go to public school or the parish school? How can altar serving be presented to make it interesting (or at least as interesting as baseball and football)?

 

[stmaria]

stmaria;2804080:

The hosts were made thicker becasue the objective was to make them more bread-like, not because they were to be placed in the hand. “Take and eat” is not the same as “Take and dissolve in the mouth”.

The texture of the host at the TLM I go to is different then the texture of the host at the OF. Don’t know why but it is thicker and and has a stiffness to it.

 

[stmaria]

stmaria;2804080:

Did you happen to hear back from your FSSP priest?

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, people choosing to receive in a legitimate approved manner should not be denied Communion. They cannot be denied for kneeling and they cannot be denied for receiving in the hand.

I am still waiting for a reply form the main office of the FSSP. I know that my priest will deny anyone communion that sticks out their hand to receive.

 

[KathleenElsie]

I think it is great that your boys are interested (perhaps because you home school). However, what would be the best way to get boys interested when they go to public school or the parish school? How can altar serving be presented to make it interesting (or at least as interesting as baseball and football)?

I find praise and respect of the family and others does wonders for what the boys tend to do. Why should sports be the thing that family and society tend to make heroes of? I have found that sports figures fall short of someone that we would want to make a role example of.

 

[lak611]

I find praise and respect of the family and others does wonders for what the boys tend to do. Why should sports be the thing that family and society tend to make heroes of? I have found that sports figures fall short of someone that we would want to make a role example of.

I think sports are popular because of the challenge and the work involved to win. Everybody likes to be a winner. Sports victories tend to earn much praise. Plus, sports involve teamwork, sacrifice, hard work, and they are perceived to be a “manly” endeavour.

 

[KathleenElsie]

I think sports are popular because of the challenge and the work involved to win. Everybody likes to be a winner. Sports victories tend to earn much praise. Plus, sports involve teamwork, sacrifice, hard work, and they are perceived to be a “manly” endeavor.

So then sports becomes the “better” choice in many persons opinion and the children will see this in societies decisions.

Being an altar server involves teamwork, sacrifice of leisure time, mental and physical work (have you tried to carry the crusifix), and if only boys were allowed as servers it also would be perceived as a “manly” endeavor. You see, it is the perception that the youth of today receive from their parents and other significant adults as to the value of the service to God -v- “sports”. So the question is what does the child see in your actions and reactions to the things they choose? GOD or MAN.

One of the reasons there are so few of our youth that choose to be priests or other religious IMHO is that we don’t value service as much as sports. The youth since the 1960’s to today see that the adults in their lives do not value religious vocations (or for that matter married life) as much as they value sports figures, singers and entertainers. This is the saddest thing we can teach out youth.

Children learn to value what those they respect value. What do you (you being the royal you or we not one person) value?

 

[Jerome42]

That’s an interesting assertion. Can you show me where in the old Missal female altar servers are forbidden? I am not suggesting that at the time the old Missal was in effect female altar servers were not in fact forbidden, but I do not think it was the Missal itself that specified this prohibition. If that is the case, I see no reason that female altar servers, now permitted in the Latin Church, may not be permitted regardless as to which Missal is used for a particular Liturgy.

But then again I may be wrong, so could you refer me to the relevant section of the Missal?

There are various Orders of Ordination which candidates for the priesthood must receive.

Major Orders, ie.

Priesthood - a Sacrament,
Deaconate - a Sacrament
Sub-Deacon - the one who sings/recites the Epistle,

and

Minor Orders, ie.,

Lectors - Reader,
Porters - the one who brings up and opens the Missal,
Exorcists - the one in charge of pouring the cleansing water,
Acolytes - the one who lights the candles, brings up the water and wine.

Many of these orders are seen in the celebration of typical Latin High Mass celebrated by the Priest Celebrant, Deacon, Sub-Deacon along with those assisting, Porter, Reader or Lector, Exorcist and Acolytes, etc.

It stands to reason that only candidates for the preisthood are eligible for these orders thereby excluding female servers.

 

[Sure]

Sure;2804904:

I am still waiting for a reply form the main office of the FSSP. I know that my priest will deny anyone communion that sticks out their hand to receive

.

I am eager to hear of his response and the documentation for it.

So, I assume your priest would agree with a “liberal” priest who refuses communion to those who kneel??? After all, the Church has said we may receive in the hand and the Church has said we may receive kneeling. Priests who attempt to “police” lawfully appropriate postures are doing a disservice to the Church.

 

[Sure]

There are various Orders of Ordination which candidates for the priesthood must receive.

Major Orders, ie.

Priesthood - a Sacrament,
Deaconate - a Sacrament
Sub-Deacon - the one who sings/recites the Epistle,

and

Minor Orders, ie.,

Lectors - Reader,
Porters - the one who brings up and opens the Missal,
Exorcists - the one in charge of pouring the cleansing water,
Acolytes - the one who lights the candles, brings up the water and wine.

Many of these orders are seen in the celebration of typical Latin High Mass celebrated by the Priest Celebrant, Deacon, Sub-Deacon along with those assisting, Porter, Reader or Lector, Exorcist and Acolytes, etc.

It stands to reason that only candidates for the preisthood are eligible for these orders thereby excluding female servers.

The sex of the server is not defined in the Missal. It is defined in canon law which states now they may eb male or female. Your description of minor orders is true except men are not made acolytes unless they are on their way to being ordained a deacon or a priest. The boys who serve at the altar are not true acolytes, but are altar servers which is not a minor order.

 

[stmaria]

;2815070:

I am eager to hear of his response and the documentation for it.

So, I assume your priest would agree with a “liberal” priest who refuses communion to those who kneel??? After all, the Church has said we may receive in the hand and the Church has said we may receive kneeling. Priests who attempt to “police” lawfully appropriate postures are doing a disservice to the Church.

I quite certain that FSSP priests join that fraternity because they believe in the sacredness of the Traditional Mass. To place commuinon in the hand of the laity when they believe that only the consecrated hands of a priest should touch the host would cause them tremendous grief. It will take a direct order from their bishop before they would allow communion in the hand or altar girls or guitar liturgy in the Traditional Mass.

 

[Sure]

Sure;2817540:

I quite certain that FSSP priests join that fraternity because they believe in the sacredness of the Traditional Mass. To place commuinon in the hand of the laity when they believe that only the consecrated hands of a priest should touch the host would cause them tremendous grief. It will take a direct order from their bishop before they would allow communion in the hand or altar girls or guitar liturgy in the Traditional Mass.

It is scary to me that you are saying that FSSP priests put their own personal beliefs above the teachings and rubrics of the Holy Church.

Altar girls can already be refused by them within the law. Guitar music can be refused within the law. Communion in the hand IS allowed within the law. And just as priests should not refuse peopl who choose to kneel, they should not refuse those who choose to receive in the hand. It’s about what the Church allows, not about what they prefer.

 

[KathleenElsie]

stmaria;2817676:

It is scary to me that you are saying that FSSP priests put their own personal beliefs above the teachings and rubrics of the Holy Church.

Altar girls can already be refused by them within the law. Guitar music can be refused within the law. Communion in the hand IS allowed within the law. And just as priests should not refuse people who choose to kneel

, they should not refuse those who choose to receive in the hand. It’s about what the Church allows, not about what they prefer.

Not only will they and do they refuse then you are taken aside and told why. I don’t kneel at the Pauline Mass out of respect for those that desire the form.
The TLM form is kneeling and on the tong. It would be respectful to those that desire the TLM to follow the TLM form. What is so hard about that? And why would you try to change this. Or was the person wanting it in the hand just to make a point.

 

[I_Believe]

There are various Orders of Ordination which candidates for the priesthood must receive.

Major Orders, ie.

Priesthood - a Sacrament,
Deaconate - a Sacrament
Sub-Deacon - the one who sings/recites the Epistle,

and

Minor Orders, ie.,

Lectors - Reader,
Porters - the one who brings up and opens the Missal,
Exorcists - the one in charge of pouring the cleansing water,
Acolytes - the one who lights the candles, brings up the water and wine.

Many of these orders are seen in the celebration of typical Latin High Mass celebrated by the Priest Celebrant, Deacon, Sub-Deacon along with those assisting, Porter, Reader or Lector, Exorcist and Acolytes, etc.

It stands to reason that only candidates for the preisthood are eligible for these orders thereby excluding female servers.

Quite right.

 

[Chris_McAvoy]

We should support the young ladies as many times they do serve in a good holy way, yet we should focus on how we can encourage boys to serve and do their temporary job. Many Catholic men are wimps and are essentially letting the women do their job these days.

Lionel Tiger wrote a fine book titled “The Decline of Males” which was an inspiration to Dr. Janet E Smith’s research on the negative effects that contraception has had in marriages.

The book clearly shows that men have declined in certain ways. However the decline of men was probably instigated by men’s own mistakes in the previous generations…many USA women lost faith in them. Still we can learn from our mistakes…as good christians…we can understand the truth of our genders differences yet respect and admire each others unique differences without taking advantage of their weaknesses.

The post-1972 economy has not helped matters either.
Men and women should avoid working outside the home simultaneously unless it is absolutely necessary or some older family relations reside with them in order to help raise children responsibly.

 

[Chris_McAvoy]

by the way I have a cousin thats an altar server and I’ve been trying to carefully figure out a way to explain to her parents that I disagree with it.

This thread has helped me. I’ve always thought something was awkward about it because when I see the female acolytes dressed identically to make acolytes it distinctly reminds me of the same pang of awkward shock i feel upon witnessing a nonchalant female episcopal bishop enter the room.

Just as a deaconess can exist within the right context as the Greek Orthodox Church has mantained exist for their vocation to exist. So would such a thing have to occur for female acolyes to exist.

Their dress would definitely have to be different than the males. And their context would also have to be different.

I have no time to analyze the details but to make it short I dont believe in female altar servers the way they are today. it’s something to be worked out by a very holy expert who has examined all previous Orthodox Catholic tradition to see where this fits in with the past. If it does not fit in to the past, it can not exist in the present.

 

[drpmjhess]

Their dress would definitely have to be different than the males. And their context would also have to be different…

Why would their dress have to be different? Why does that matter?

 

[Leopard]

I e-mailed my FSSP priest and this is what he said in regards to the EF and the 1983 Canon Law.

“When celebrating either the ordinary or extraordinary form one is bound to adhere to the rubrics and liturgical laws which bind to the useage. What that means in practice that since communion in the hand and altar girls were not in use in 1962 they will not (and cannot be) imposed on the extraordinary form.”

The rubrics and liturgical laws which bind to the useage of either the ordinary or extraordinary form are those laws that are in force when that Liturgy is celebrated. Since both reception of Holy Communion in the hand and female altar servers are permitted in 2007, it would seem that in practice a ban on them can not be imposed on them in regards to the extraordinary form as celebrated in 2007.

Persons objecting to either or both are still free to retroactively impose a ban on both to masses celebrated in 1962 if this makes them feel any better, though.

 

[latinmass]

Of course not!!! The liberals have the Novus Ordo. They can go there to sing contemporary songs, have altar girls, and lay ministers, and even speak in tongues as they all wave there hands in the air. Don’t infect the Mass of Ages!!! Why is there nothing sacred? I pray that the person who had this question is a new convert and just did not know any better. We must never forget Sacred Tradition. Not every detail is written in Canon Law pertaining to the Mass, especially ludicrious ideas that the Church fathers would never have dreamt of. Pray for us Sts. Peter and Paul.