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Frbrendan
Guest
To anyone’s knowledge, are there any female altar servers in any of the Byzantine Catholic Eparchies?
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Patchunky
Guest
At one time, there were 2 girls who used to assist in the Eparchy of Parma. They only assisted when the Holy Eucharist was disbritued and then only held the Communion cloth under the chins of those who received.
The parish they were in had no other boys to assist and this was before adult men were being used.
I haven’t seen any on my recent visits to the parish.
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Aramis
Guest
Females are forbidden to have any liturgical ministries inside the altar. At least according to the Particular Law posted on ByzCath.org for the Metropolitanate.
The girls patchunky mentioned should not allowed behind the Iconostas during the DL.
Now, at my parish, female ministries in the liturgy are the collection, lectoring and cantoring… and of these, the collection is almost exclusively girls. my 8YO is one of them.
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bpbasilphx
Guest
This would not apply to Byzantine Catholics, but in Orthodox women’s monasteries it’s not unheard of to have tonsured nuns acting as servers.
Of course, this is a clear exception to usual practice.
Of course, this is a clear exception to usual practice.
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Ivan_Putovati
Guest
Fr. Brendan bless!
The young ladies that help hold the lention during communion in Eastern Christian churches are handmaidens. They never go behind the iconostasis and they wear a simple white robe … not a sticharion.
The young ladies that help hold the lention during communion in Eastern Christian churches are handmaidens. They never go behind the iconostasis and they wear a simple white robe … not a sticharion.
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bpbasilphx
Guest
They never go behind the iconostasis and they wear a simple white robe … not a sticharion.
**The sticharion is basically an alb (simple white robe) that the ladies of the altar guild got hold of.
I have known some Orthodox priests who used albs for sticharia.**
**The sticharion is basically an alb (simple white robe) that the ladies of the altar guild got hold of.
I have known some Orthodox priests who used albs for sticharia.**
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Ivan_Putovati
Guest
We imitate the Romans … except we Greko-Catholics are a decade late. Rome will eventually shut down the female altar server experiment, which is a imitation of Protestant practice.
I wish we would restore minor orders. That would go a long way in helping the situation. The poor girls who serve as servers at the altar must be so confused. The boys likely are too. Of course , this hurts the pipeline for vocations.
Another example: The Church of Rome is nixing the sappy inclusive language of the 1970s and 1980s, and now the BCC adds inclusive language to the liturgy. Alas! if we only had the courage to be Orthodox in Communion with Rome.
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Aramis
Guest
The Sticherion is liturgically equivalent to the Roman Alb, but need not be white in some jurisdictions.
So they were in simple sticherion. I’d be writing the bishop over it, myself.
Also, some rather remote Greek Orthodox Monasteries for women have deaconesses as cleric-in-residence.
So they were in simple sticherion. I’d be writing the bishop over it, myself.
Also, some rather remote Greek Orthodox Monasteries for women have deaconesses as cleric-in-residence.
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rjs1
Guest
I so hope you are correct!
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bpbasilphx
Guest
**
I wish we would restore minor orders. That would go a long way in helping the situation.**
**I agree.
The divinely given order is to have several tonsured readers and subdeacons, as well as at least one deacon, in every parish.
This is very common in Orthodox parishes.**
I wish we would restore minor orders. That would go a long way in helping the situation.**
**I agree.
The divinely given order is to have several tonsured readers and subdeacons, as well as at least one deacon, in every parish.
This is very common in Orthodox parishes.**
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Aramis
Guest
I found an interesting point in the Ruthenian Particular Law:
Canon 327
§1. Men who are properly prepared can be ordained to the offices of acolyte, lector cantor and subdeacon, who are minor clerics.
§2. Minor clerics will be governed by proper statute issued by competent authority.
byzcath.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=334
Canon 327
§1. Men who are properly prepared can be ordained to the offices of acolyte, lector cantor and subdeacon, who are minor clerics.
§2. Minor clerics will be governed by proper statute issued by competent authority.
byzcath.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=334
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Frank_J
Guest
Hi bpbasilphx,
I’m in training to become a subdeacon in the Holy Orthodox Church. I look forward to serving GOD in this position as a subdeacon. Subdeacon are a part of minor orders and I know what I would have to give up if I enter Holy Order.
I like your remarks that and support them. You said and I quote: “The divinely given order is to have several tonsured readers and subdeacons, as well as at least one deacon, in every parish.” Right On! I’m 100% for that.
My view of female altar servers is one that I would never support. I could never serve alone side them and would never ever think of doing so. I see female altar servers as a big joke. We don’t need to follow Rome down that road, that would be the big mistake on our part.
Remember that Rome has the Jazz Mass and dancing girls at the Altar. I’ve may articals on the two thenking that I spoken about here. Look at the Catholics who are leaving the Church and that is since Rome changed their Mass from the Latin Tridentine Mass too Novus Ordo.
GOD bless you.
Your Orthodox brother.
Frank J
I’m in training to become a subdeacon in the Holy Orthodox Church. I look forward to serving GOD in this position as a subdeacon. Subdeacon are a part of minor orders and I know what I would have to give up if I enter Holy Order.
I like your remarks that and support them. You said and I quote: “The divinely given order is to have several tonsured readers and subdeacons, as well as at least one deacon, in every parish.” Right On! I’m 100% for that.
My view of female altar servers is one that I would never support. I could never serve alone side them and would never ever think of doing so. I see female altar servers as a big joke. We don’t need to follow Rome down that road, that would be the big mistake on our part.
Remember that Rome has the Jazz Mass and dancing girls at the Altar. I’ve may articals on the two thenking that I spoken about here. Look at the Catholics who are leaving the Church and that is since Rome changed their Mass from the Latin Tridentine Mass too Novus Ordo.
GOD bless you.
Your Orthodox brother.
Frank J
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Aramis
Guest
I would love to see the routine reinstitution of the subdeaconate to use in the Ruthenian Church. I’ve already told my eparch this.
it will take time for the Ruthenian Metropolia to recover from His Grace Nicholas + Elko, who latinized it highly.
Frank:
your statment triggered a bit of memory…
Holy Orthodoxy as a whole has not publicly criticized the Greek Orthodox for ordaining women as Deaconesses. In theory, as an Orthodox subdeacon, you cold wind up in a liturgy with one present, and the GOC has them with their early church liturgical role… not just baptism, but as Ministers of Holy Communion.
After that, I checked the english translations of the promulgation about ordination in the Catholic church… they say women are not vaid matter for priestly ordination, and that this is an infallible decree. This leaves the possibility that the deaconess might be reinstituted.
it will take time for the Ruthenian Metropolia to recover from His Grace Nicholas + Elko, who latinized it highly.
Frank:
your statment triggered a bit of memory…
Holy Orthodoxy as a whole has not publicly criticized the Greek Orthodox for ordaining women as Deaconesses. In theory, as an Orthodox subdeacon, you cold wind up in a liturgy with one present, and the GOC has them with their early church liturgical role… not just baptism, but as Ministers of Holy Communion.
After that, I checked the english translations of the promulgation about ordination in the Catholic church… they say women are not vaid matter for priestly ordination, and that this is an infallible decree. This leaves the possibility that the deaconess might be reinstituted.
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Frank_J
Guest
Hi Aramis,
In the ealy Church there were women as Deaconesses. It die out for some reason why I not sure on but I do know that the early Church had them. Deaconesses are not allow at the Altar they are or were used when it came to just baptism. I never ever herd of them ever being used for as Ministers of Holy Communion.
Will need to look into that will find out but I feel that I’m right on this. Will look it up tomorrow getting late
Have a good day.
Frank J
In the ealy Church there were women as Deaconesses. It die out for some reason why I not sure on but I do know that the early Church had them. Deaconesses are not allow at the Altar they are or were used when it came to just baptism. I never ever herd of them ever being used for as Ministers of Holy Communion.
Will need to look into that will find out but I feel that I’m right on this. Will look it up tomorrow getting late
Have a good day.
Frank J
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Formosus
Guest
Deaconesses probably fell out of use because cultural prohibitions against men ministring to women became irrelevant or disappeared altogether. Deaconesses had to perform certain actions because at one point is it was improper for men to touch women that weren’t their wife, mother, daughter , etc at all. So they needed deaconesses to perform anointings (in the presence of the Priest of course). I beleive I read all that on an Orthodox website.
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Frank_J
Guest
Hi Aramis,
He is what you are looking for and I felt that it would take long to look up what so ever.
westernorthodoxy.org/pdf/restored.pdf
Greek Orthodox Church ordaining women as Deaconesses and there liturgical role.
I hope this answers your statement on women as Deaconesses.
Have a great day.
Frank J
He is what you are looking for and I felt that it would take long to look up what so ever.
westernorthodoxy.org/pdf/restored.pdf
Greek Orthodox Church ordaining women as Deaconesses and there liturgical role.
I hope this answers your statement on women as Deaconesses.
Have a great day.
Frank J
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Aramis
Guest
A deaconess does far more than a server… I have few questions about it, but the additional point of view (I’d not seen that particular document before) is always welcomed. But that document also does not touch on their liturgical role (or lack thereof), merely their ordination as female deacons.
I was unaware of the Armenian Deaconesses. Which is quite interesting.
I do support the idea of restoring the Deaconesses to the churches.
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Frank_J
Guest
Hi Aramis,
If you wish to have more information of the female Deacons you would do better to contact the Greek Orthodox Church in your area.
I trust the Orthodox to do the right thing. GOD is watching over the Orthodox Church and will keep it on right track.
The Orthodox Church is true blue and will always do GODs’ will.
Other then that it’s up to you to find out for yourself.
Have a great day.
Frank J
If you wish to have more information of the female Deacons you would do better to contact the Greek Orthodox Church in your area.
I trust the Orthodox to do the right thing. GOD is watching over the Orthodox Church and will keep it on right track.
The Orthodox Church is true blue and will always do GODs’ will.
Other then that it’s up to you to find out for yourself.
Have a great day.
Frank J
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bpbasilphx
Guest
If you wish to see the rite for ordaining a deaconess, please go here.
anastasis.org.uk/woman_deacon.htm
You can also compare it with that of ordaining a male deacon and draw your own conclusions.
Fr. Ephrem, the translator, makes this comment:
“The ordination takes place at the same point of the Liturgy as that for male Deacons and the principal role of the diaconate as the minister of the Chalice is stressed by the giving of the Chalice to the newly ordained woman Deacon. This clearly indicates that the newly ordained was admitted to the Sanctuary and stood near the Altar. The 14th century canonist Matthew Blastares notes that, ’except for a few things, the ordination of women deacons is to be performed like that for male deacons’. He notes particularly that ‘she is brought to the Holy Table’. The rubrical details in the older books are few and the actual formula of ordination is not given in full. As a result we do not know how the candidate was described or what her ecclesiastical status was before ordination. I do not think the fact that she only bows and does not kneel has any theological significance.”
anastasis.org.uk/woman_deacon.htm
You can also compare it with that of ordaining a male deacon and draw your own conclusions.
Fr. Ephrem, the translator, makes this comment:
“The ordination takes place at the same point of the Liturgy as that for male Deacons and the principal role of the diaconate as the minister of the Chalice is stressed by the giving of the Chalice to the newly ordained woman Deacon. This clearly indicates that the newly ordained was admitted to the Sanctuary and stood near the Altar. The 14th century canonist Matthew Blastares notes that, ’except for a few things, the ordination of women deacons is to be performed like that for male deacons’. He notes particularly that ‘she is brought to the Holy Table’. The rubrical details in the older books are few and the actual formula of ordination is not given in full. As a result we do not know how the candidate was described or what her ecclesiastical status was before ordination. I do not think the fact that she only bows and does not kneel has any theological significance.”
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RobGentner
Guest
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If I said this was a strange thread, I sincerely, hope that no one would be offended.
I personally do not “like” female altar servers at all! PERIOD! However, since it is a small “t” I endore it! God Bless All!
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