Female altar servers.

[Bob_Aliano]

There are countless sayings about leaving the barn door or coral gate open and the ensuing escape of the critters within. I’m afraid this expansion of the female roles in the Liturgy is just another gate that, once opened, is destined to stay open. Guess we just live with it and hope the remaining gates are secure.

 

[snowlake]

There is something that bothers me about the combination of both girls and boys as altar servers. At my parish, they are at the age of puberty, and there seems to be a lot of flirty and giggly behavior between them. Maybe the girls should serve w/ girls, guys w/ guys.
Just a thought.

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

My 13 year old dd is an altar server at our parish. I am starting to feel uneasy about it, espescially as I see how boys are less willing to serve when girls are on the altar. I am thinking of not allowing her to serve anymore. Am I being unreasonable do you think?

In my opinion I think that you are stuck now that you allowed her to begin altar serving in the first place. Otherwise, what are you teaching your daughter? That she should give up anything she likes or wants if a boy wants her to do something different?

If you didn’t want her to serve you should have held her out of it. Now that she’s doing it, if she enjoys it I don’t think you’re doing her any favors by taking it away from her.

Altar servers are just that, altar servers. There is ZERO theological reasoning to not allow female altar servers.

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

There is something that bothers me about the combination of both girls and boys as altar servers. At my parish, they are at the age of puberty, and there seems to be a lot of flirty and giggly behavior between them. Maybe the girls should serve w/ girls, guys w/ guys.
Just a thought.

That’s exactly what I have instituted in my parish. The servers for each Mass are either all boys or all girls.

 

[Redratfish]

There is something that bothers me about the combination of both girls and boys as altar servers. At my parish, they are at the age of puberty, and there seems to be a lot of flirty and giggly behavior between them. Maybe the girls should serve w/ girls, guys w/ guys.
Just a thought.

They are kids. They will mess around regardless of which gender serves with each other… Guys only: Guys will be guys, and mess around, and horseplay.Girls only: Girls and their friends will laugh and giggle and also maybe horseplay. Unless you are saying that children shouldn’t altar serve, I fail to see your point. Let kids be kids.

 

[valient_Lucy]

My 13 year old dd is an altar server at our parish. I am starting to feel uneasy about it, espescially as I see how boys are less willing to serve when girls are on the altar. I am thinking of not allowing her to serve anymore. Am I being unreasonable do you think?

I know what you mean, and she is your daughter. You’re well within your rights to do this. I would explain to her why you don’t want her to serve, but I understand your concern.

My parish does allow girls to serve, but yesterday, there were all boys and men serving. It was actually very inspring.

 

[valient_Lucy]

That’s exactly what I have instituted in my parish. The servers for each Mass are either all boys or all girls.

I think that is an excellent idea!

 

[snowlake]

They are kids. They will mess around regardless of which gender serves with each other… Guys only: Guys will be guys, and mess around, and horseplay.Girls only: Girls and their friends will laugh and giggle and also maybe horseplay. Unless you are saying that children shouldn’t altar serve, I fail to see your point. Let kids be kids.

I think that both sexes feel more self-conscious when serving together, plus many are at the age when “puppy love” becomes an issue. Sometimes this can be observed in their behavior.

 

[snowlake]

Is it possible to find another role for the girls? They can be officially designated greeters, or they can take up the gifts. But these are things that everyone else is involved in. Is there a function that they could fulfill without taking part in the actions formerly reserved for acolytes?

 

[kozlosap]

Yes, you are being unreasonable. My dear daughter, now 25 was an alter server for 4 years and she still cherishes the memory and I think being able to participate has helped her stay in the Church. And, as Forrest Gump said, “And that’s all I have to say about that”.

 

[bkovacs]

My 13 year old dd is an altar server at our parish. I am starting to feel uneasy about it, espescially as I see how boys are less willing to serve when girls are on the altar. I am thinking of not allowing her to serve anymore. Am I being unreasonable do you think?

Not one bit!. In the Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rite as well as the Byzantine Rite, only males are allowed to be altar servers. Female altar servers is a post Vatican 2 trend, to cater to those feminists who felt offended by only having male altar servers. Don’t take this the wrong way. An altar boy or male altar server to be politically correct, is hoped that some day when they get older and more active in the church, may want to consider the priesthood or deaconate. Two positions only allowed for males.

 

[revert_jen]

My 13 year old dd is an altar server at our parish. I am starting to feel uneasy about it, espescially as I see how boys are less willing to serve when girls are on the altar. I am thinking of not allowing her to serve anymore. Am I being unreasonable do you think?

I think that at 13 your daughter is probably old enough that you should talk to her about it. Read up on the reasoning behind the Church not being allowed to ordain women, and I would also read JPIIs Mulieris Dignitatem (you can find it online). Then I would talk to her, explain your concerns, and see if you can convince her. The thing you want to avoid is her leaving the Church in 8 or 10 years because it is “sexist” for not ordaining women. Now is a good time to discuss with her the Church’s very correct teaching that although men and women are 100% equal in dignity, that does not mean that they are equivalent.

In our diocese, the bishop has left it up to the pastors whether female altar servers are allowed in a parish and our pastor doesn’t allow them. We always have lots of altar servers. I have never seen a shortage. My previous parish did allow female altar servers, and was about twice as big as my current parish, but at least once a month, there would be an announcement, “Are there any trained altar servers in the congregation? We need at least one more…” It’s just anecdotal, but what other kind of evidence could there be that wasn’t self-report data (and therefore inherently unreliable)?

It is foolish not to realize that the dynamic will be very different when both female and male altar servers are at the same Mass. Whether or not there are objections on the part of the male servers, or whether or not there is giggling, there is distraction. The boys and girls will not be paying as much attention to the Mass in a mixed group as they would be paying in a single-gender group, whether they are at the cooties stage or the crush stage.

In addition, it is possible that some boys like the idea of being altar servers partly because it is something they can do and girls cannot. There are VERY few such things left in society–there are many more things that girls can do and boys cannot. E.g. many times, girls can join the boys’ sports teams, but not vice versa, and there are more women-only colleges and universities than men-only ones.

However you need to keep in mind that removing your daughter from the altar server program is not going to actually fix any of the problems. There will still be other female altar servers, so the distractions and so forth will still be there. So if you can’t talk your daughter into leaving the program on her own, I would let her stay in. I can (just) remember being 13, and I think that if my mother had treated me that way (tried to pursuade me to do something but accepted my decision) about something it would have made our relationship much better.

You might see if she would be interested in putting in some practice to be a Lector instead, if your parish would allow someone so young to do it.

God bless!

–Jen

 

[bkovacs]

I think that at 13 your daughter is probably old enough that you should talk to her about it. Read up on the reasoning behind the Church not being allowed to ordain women, and I would also read JPIIs Mulieris Dignitatem (you can find it online). Then I would talk to her, explain your concerns, and see if you can convince her. The thing you want to avoid is her leaving the Church in 8 or 10 years because it is “sexist” for not ordaining women. Now is a good time to discuss with her the Church’s very correct teaching that although men and women are 100% equal in dignity, that does not mean that they are equivalent.

In our diocese, the bishop has left it up to the pastors whether female altar servers are allowed in a parish and our pastor doesn’t allow them. We always have lots of altar servers. I have never seen a shortage. My previous parish did allow female altar servers, and was about twice as big as my current parish, but at least once a month, there would be an announcement, “Are there any trained altar servers in the congregation? We need at least one more…” It’s just anecdotal, but what other kind of evidence could there be that wasn’t self-report data (and therefore inherently unreliable)?

It is foolish not to realize that the dynamic will be very different when both female and male altar servers are at the same Mass. Whether or not there are objections on the part of the male servers, or whether or not there is giggling, there is distraction. The boys and girls will not be paying as much attention to the Mass in a mixed group as they would be paying in a single-gender group, whether they are at the cooties stage or the crush stage.

In addition, it is possible that some boys like the idea of being altar servers partly because it is something they can do and girls cannot. There are VERY few such things left in society–there are many more things that girls can do and boys cannot. E.g. many times, girls can join the boys’ sports teams, but not vice versa, and there are more women-only colleges and universities than men-only ones.

However you need to keep in mind that removing your daughter from the altar server program is not going to actually fix any of the problems. There will still be other female altar servers, so the distractions and so forth will still be there. So if you can’t talk your daughter into leaving the program on her own, I would let her stay in. I can (just) remember being 13, and I think that if my mother had treated me that way (tried to pursuade me to do something but accepted my decision) about something it would have made our relationship much better.

You might see if she would be interested in putting in some practice to be a Lector instead, if your parish would allow someone so young to do it.

God bless!

–Jen

Go points!

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

I love it when uber-conservative types do something like this. There are thousands of posts from traditionalists and reactionary types which state “Why won’t people listen to the Church!?” when the subject is woman priests, homosexuality, abortion, birth control, etc, etc, etc. Y’all are quick to jump on the “You must respect the Pope’s authority!” bandwagon… until it’s something you disagree with.

Then… Then you scream “Conscience! Conscience!”.

Welcome to the other side of the fence.

What do you mean?

 

[snowlake]

Here’s something else to consider, too. The admissability of girls as altar servers might change . (I think that is possible, someone correct me if I’m wrong). How would your daughter feel if, after having been one, this opportunity was taken away? Would she feel indignant, and more apt to have bitter feelings toward the church? Maybe it’s better to encourage her to participate in other things. Does she sing? How about joining the choir?

If you can get her involved in greeting, handing out bulletins, taking up the gifts, and eventually lectoring, she might not even notice her absence as an altar server.

I think the best thing is to explain that the role of altar servers originated with acolytes, who were hopefully enroute to becoming ordained as priests or deacons. Revert Jen’s
idea of reading Mulieris Dignitatem is fantastic. No one would ever feel marginalized after that beautiful read!

But if your daughter has a personality that might eventually use this as a reason to consider the church sexist, or to hold this against you personally, I’d say let her do it WHILE suggesting the other things as well. Then she at least will not eventually be angry.

 

[CatholicZ09]

As a male altar server, I don’t think that the presence of girls on the altar make boys want to serve any less. If this should be the case, it kind of reminds me of the Kindergarten days. “Girls have cooties!”

The only thing I worry about when I have to serve is if the other server is nice. Thus far I haven’t had any bad experiences.

It’s most likely that if their are a lack of male altar servers, they probably don’t like doing it, or don’t like getting up on a Sunday morning.

 

[Adeodatus]

There is ZERO theological reasoning to not allow female altar servers.

1. Altar service as a stepping stone to the priesthood (acolyte = minor order)
2. Politicizing worship (“women’s rights”, feminism)
3. Inching toward women’s ordination
4. Ignoring the long-standing tradition of the Church
5. Called an “evil practice” by Pope Benedict XIV in Encyclical Allatae Sunt*
6. Forbidden by Popes Gelasius and Innocent IV

Gee, “zero” is a bigger number than I thought. Must be that new math from the 1960s.

• • Some doubleplus ungoodthink from a notorious cohort of Emmanuel Goldstein:
    papalencyclicals.net/Ben14/b14allat.htm

 

[PaulinVA]

1. Altar service as a stepping stone to the priesthood (acolyte = minor order)

This is not true. One does not have to have been an altar server to be considered for the priesthood. Most altar servers do not become priests.

1. Politicizing worship (“women’s rights”, feminism)

I am conservative both theologically and politically and I don’t see this. Actually, you are politicizing it by objecting to it on political grounds.

1. Inching toward women’s ordination

Nope.

1. Ignoring the long-standing tradition of the Church.

Could the long stading tradition of the church be just a little patriarchal and afraid of women? (I Do Not Believe I Just Wrote That.)

1. Called an “evil practice” by Pope Benedict XIV in Encyclical Allatae Sunt*

Those evil girls? Oh, my. Actually he was talking about women, not girls.

1. Forbidden by Popes Gelasius and Innocent IV

Allowed by the present Popes. Which ones where wrong?

 

[kozlosap]

This is not true. One does not have to have been an altar server to be considered for the priesthood. Most altar servers do not become priests.

I am conservative both theologically and politically and I don’t see this. Actually, you are politicizing it by objecting to it on political grounds.

Nope.

Could the long stading tradition of the church be just a little patriarchal and afraid of women? (I Do Not Believe I Just Wrote That.)

Those evil girls? Oh, my. Actually he was talking about women, not girls.

Allowed by the present Popes. Which ones where wrong?

Couldn’t have said it better!

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

1. Altar service as a stepping stone to the priesthood (acolyte = minor order)

Altar servers at a parish level are no such thing. Lector is also a stepping stone to priesthood yet canon law explicitly opens up the role of lector to women.
And anyways that’s an argument about rules not theology.

1. Politicizing worship (“women’s rights”, feminism)

What? This doesn’t make any sense. Either something is able to be done by a female or its not. There’s no politics in it.

1. Inching toward women’s ordination

Only if one lacks all logic and reason. Serving Mass and saying Mass are quite different things. I don’t think any 10-year-old altar server has ever thought of him/herself as a concelebrant.

1. Ignoring the long-standing tradition of the Church

More nonsense. The Church has lots of “long standing traditions” that get amended or changed. Would you have opposed mandatory celibacy as ignoring the long standing tradition of ordaining married men as priests?

1. Called an “evil practice” by Pope Benedict XIV in Encyclical Allatae Sunt*
2. Forbidden by Popes Gelasius and Innocent IV

So what? Its a matter of discipline not dogma. Unless of course you’re claiming Pope John Paul II is a heretic and thus an antipope???

Gee, “zero” is a bigger number than I thought. Must be that new math from the 1960s.

No, its still ZERO, zilch, nada. You made some nice arguments from man-made traditions, disciplines, and practicality but nothing about theology and dogma. Nice try.