Female altar servers.

[jgbuff]

Three of my children are alter servers, the fourth can’t wait until after next easter when he can. Two of the three are girls, they love to serve. It’s one of the few ways children get an opportunity to help with the mass. Jesus, I believe said let the children come to me, I dont believe he meant only boys. Some of you folks on here get so critical, and so stuck on documents etc…guess what 2 weeks ago I noticed my twins had flip flops on while serving, I bet the whole congregation was in disbelief. No damage was done.

 

[ishii]

I am a 63 year old female and am an altar server at daily mass, funerals and any other time I am needed.

Have found that not only do young boys not want to serve but older men as well.

I agree that priests should be male but if women wish to serve it should be okay. I feel very honored to be able to serve at the table of our Lord. God Bless

The priest needs to make a better effort. A good pool of altar boys needed to be recruited and groomed for the job. If there is a school connected to the parish, then that task becomes easier and you can get a large pool of altar boys to serve. I think it makes sense to limit altar servers to boys when possible as this helps young men discern a possible vocation to the priesthood. We need more priests and this is a good (however small) opportunity to introduce young boys and men to the priesthood.

Ishii

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

He made two, zwei, dos.

No, he made arguments involving discipline and traditional rules.

The connection w/ acolytes, and the ordination of men only.

Modern altar servers have little to nothing to do with advancement in minor orders. And since acolyte is not part of the sacrament of Holy Orders, it is open to Church tinkering.

You may disagree with his conclusions, but these topics are related to the teaching of the Church and of Christ about a male-only Priesthood , which is part of the Theology of the Priesthood

By claiming it might confuse people is not a theological argument, its an argument about practicality.
Canon Law allows the option for a reason.

 

[Adeodatus]

Traditional, yes. However, I have stated above that I feel that times have changed, and so have the teaching of the traditions of the Church

I guess a lot of people look at it this way: God founded a Church on the rock of St. Peter, and that lasted all the way until 1962. Then man abolished that Church and “sang a new church into being”, the new-and-improved modern version.

“Modernism” was considered a heresy in that old Church. I guess what Newchurch teaches is what it has always taught, even if what it has always (currently) taught is exactly the opposite of what it has always (formerly) taught.

Well, that’s not the way I see it. I don’t think HH sees it that way, either.

 

[snowlake]

No, he made arguments involving discipline and traditional rules.
Modern altar servers have little to nothing to do with advancement in minor orders. And since acolyte is not part of the sacrament of Holy Orders, it is open to Church tinkering.
By claiming it might confuse people is not a theological argument, its an argument about practicality.
Canon Law allows the option for a reason.

I’m relatively new around here. Are you a priest? If so, certainly you know that the first three points (of Adeod.'s post) involve the Theology of the Priesthood. I don’t think anyone was denying your second statement (about altar servers/acolytes), in fact you simply restated what I said.
About “claiming it might confuse people”: where did that come from? I must have missed that post. About Canon Law allowing it for a reason, did anyone say otherwise?

You read a lot into Adeodatus’s post. There was not enough information in it to get wacked out over.

 

[CDNowak]

My brothers and I have been altar servers for fourteen years now at our local parish. As long as I have been doing so I have been serving with girls.** I don’t know where you get the idea that being an altar server is a “male only” tradition. I think you’re completely off on that.** As for the actual question, hopefully my response to this person’s posting leads you in the right direction. There is nothing wrong with you daughter being an altar server, she is just as capable as any other young man who will be serving alongside her. If the other boys who are altar servers do not like this than so be it. You cannot change their thoughts on the matter, but that is no reason to have her stop doing something that she enjoys.

Only men/boys were allowed to serve since the beginning of the Church (as testified to by condemnations in no uncertain terms by Councils and Popes). In the late seventies (as near as I can tell) scattered disobedience on this began (perhaps as testing of Ministeria Quaedam). The practice continued to be condemned even after the updating of canon law in 1983, until July 30,1992, when a *dubium * on the interpretation of canon 230 first stated the possibility. Permission for the bishops to set local law came in the spring of 1994. So the custom of allowing women / girls to serve is *very *new.

 

[Phemie]

Only men/boys were allowed to serve since the beginning of the Church (as testified to by condemnations in no uncertain terms by Councils and Popes). In the late seventies (as near as I can tell) scattered disobedience on this began (perhaps as testing of Ministeria Quaedam). The practice continued to be condemned even after the updating of canon law in 1983, until July 30,1992, when a *dubium * on the interpretation of canon 230 first stated the possibility. Permission for the bishops to set local law came in the spring of 1994. So the custom of allowing women / girls to serve is *very *new.

Stuff I didn’t know since my daughter was serving back in 1988 and they had female altar servers in many parishes before that.

 

[snowlake]

My brothers and I have been altar servers for fourteen years now at our local parish. As long as I have been doing so I have been serving with girls. I don’t know where you get the idea that being an altar server is a “male only” tradition. I think you’re completely off on that. As for the actual question, hopefully my response to this person’s posting leads you in the right direction. There is nothing wrong with you daughter being an altar server, she is just as capable as any other young man who will be serving alongside her. If the other boys who are altar servers do not like this than so be it. You cannot change their thoughts on the matter, but that is no reason to have her stop doing something that she enjoys.

I appreciate your love of service, and in no way am I saying that you do not currently have
permission to be an altar server. I’m assuming you’re relatively young if you cannot remember that altar servers have been male up until the '90s. Before this, there existed
female servers, but they had not yet been approved by Rome.

Your post only serves to underscore the idea that a type of “social engineering” or “conditioning” was the original impetus for the matter, which was propagated by
women’s groups that you probably wouldn’t agree with if you knew their full agenda.
In your case (and I’m not saying that you are in any way ‘at fault’), it seems to have worked.

 

[Catholicben]

I don’t know where you get the idea that being an altar server is a “male only” tradition.

???

Do you know who was the only ones who served before the 1960s (Vatican II)? You might have guessed it. **Boys (and men).**That’s where we “get the idea that being an altar server is a ‘male only’ tradition.” And If you ask me, it’s a pretty good one.

 

[Cristiano]

I appreciate your love of service, and in no way am I saying that you do not currently have
permission to be an altar server. I’m assuming you’re relatively young if you cannot remember that altar servers have been male up until the '90s. Before this, there existed
female servers, but they had not yet been approved by Rome.

Your post only serves to underscore the idea that a type of “social engineering” or “conditioning” was the original impetus for the matter, which was propagated by
women’s groups that you probably wouldn’t agree with if you knew their full agenda.
In your case (and I’m not saying that you are in any way ‘at fault’), it seems to have worked.

I would like to comment on the concept of social engineering that you brought up. What you say would make send if we were in the situation where boys and girls are separated in other occasions (e.g. school). Today’s social engineering is pushing back to separate boys and girls during school time and if that is going to be more common then we will see altar servers being only boys.

I think that the same thinking that got the girls to serve now drives the separation within the schools. However, the supporters of such a change will probably be shocked when a lot of consequences will follow when you treat boys and girls as different beings having equal dignity.

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

I’m relatively new around here. Are you a priest?

Yes

If so, certainly you know that the first three points (of Adeod.'s post) involve the Theology of the Priesthood.

Altar serving does not involve the theology of the priesthood. The minor order of Acolyte did, but today there the minor orders are supressed and the office of Acolyte is open to any male.
Altar servers in the modern sense of the word are not really acolytes. Parish altar servers are not part of the office of acoylte. They “fulfill and perform the functions” of acolyte the same as the female reader at Mass fulfills the function of Lector at Mass (also once a minor order).

Secondly, Adeodatus’ 2nd point was a mysterious reference to “women’s rights/feminism.” That’s some kind of political argument not theological.

And Adeodatus’ 3rd point was that this is inching toward’s women’s ordination which is a conclusion that has no logical or reasonable foundation.

About “claiming it might confuse people”: where did that come from?

It comes from Adeodatus’ point #3 that female altar servers was “incing towards women’s ordination.” The only way that is possible is if people are confused into the erroneous connection between altar servers and priesthood.

About Canon Law allowing it for a reason, did anyone say otherwise?

You wouldn’t know it from many posts here.

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

The practice continued to be condemned even after the updating of canon law in 1983

Can you provide where the Holy See did this after 1983?

until July 30,1992, when a *dubium * on the interpretation of canon 230 first stated the possibility. Permission for the bishops to set local law came in the spring of 1994. So the custom of allowing women / girls to serve is *very *new.

The 1992 dubium response was an interpretation of canon 230. And the 1994 letter from the CDF is another explanation of what already existed in the law. Those two letters did not give permission but rather explained what the canons already gave permission for…

 

[elgar]

In my opinion I think that you are stuck now that you allowed her to begin altar serving in the first place. Otherwise, what are you teaching your daughter? That she should give up anything she likes or wants if a boy wants her to do something different?

If you didn’t want her to serve you should have held her out of it. Now that she’s doing it, if she enjoys it I don’t think you’re doing her any favors by taking it away from her.

Altar servers are just that, altar servers. There is ZERO theological reasoning to not allow female altar servers.

The practice of allowing females to serve at the altar is one fallout from dumping the Latin Mass and going to the Novus Ordo rite. In the Latin Mass, having young men assist at the altar was a logical first step toward vocations of men to the priesthood. Since women have been allowed to take over and push their agendas, what we are seeing is a feminization of the Mass and fewer men and boys in general attending. You see more girl altar servers than boys in the parishes I’ve attended. Contrast this to the Orthodox churches who don’t have a scarcity of males in their ranks. I can think of only a couple of dioceses in the US that don’t allow girl acolytes–Lincoln Nebraska coming to mind.

 

[choy]

The practice of allowing females to serve at the altar is one fallout from dumping the Latin Mass and going to the Novus Ordo rite. In the Latin Mass, having young men assist at the altar was a logical first step toward vocations of men to the priesthood. Since women have been allowed to take over and push their agendas, what we are seeing is a feminization of the Mass and fewer men and boys in general attending. You see more girl altar servers than boys in the parishes I’ve attended. Contrast this to the Orthodox churches who don’t have a scarcity of males in their ranks. I can think of only a couple of dioceses in the US that don’t allow girl acolytes–Lincoln Nebraska coming to mind.

perhaps the order you are looking at this is the other way around
female altar servers were allowed because fewer men and boys are attending and even fewer are willing to serve in the Mass

 

[CDNowak]

Can you provide where the Holy See did this after 1983?

My mistake, 1980 (Inaestimabile Donum).

The 1992 dubium response was an interpretation of canon 230. And the 1994 letter from the CDF is another explanation of what already existed in the law. Those two letters did not give permission but rather explained what the canons already gave permission for…

A question that took a decade to settle, while the code may implicitly have allowed it since 1983, the practice was not authorized until the question was settled (arguably the early date of 1992 or more commonly the publication date of 1994). The CDW, in consultation with Pontifical Council for Legislative Texts, uses the 1994 date in a 2001 letter (Prot. N.2451/00/L) clarifying the right of the priest, not to have altar girls even where the bishop has authorized this “innovation” (also the CDW’s word).

Regardless of whether it was legitimized in 1983, 1992, or 1994, the practice had already taken root in disobedience prior to 1983, and is an “innovation” from the (t/T)radition (abstaining from that debate for the time being) of male altar servers.

 

[Catholicben]

It’s one of the few ways children get an opportunity to help with the mass.

Your desire for service is great, but there is no right to “help with mass”. I’m just saying.

Jesus, I believe, said let the children come to me, I dont believe he meant only boys.

Neither do I. He also didn’t say “Let the little children serve at the altar”. Just because he said “let the children come to me”, does that mean that you have the license to do anything you want so that the little children can “come to him”? Should we start ordaining little children, so they can “come to him”?

Some of you folks on here get so critical, and so stuck on documentsetc…

I really don’t see your point.** There is absolutely nothing wring with getting “stuck on documents**”, especially when you are discussing the mass! **That’s what they are there for! **To help us understand how the mass should be celebrated!

guess what, 2 weeks ago I noticed my twins had flip flops on while serving, I bet the whole congregation was in disbelief. No damage was done.

“I bet the whole congregation was in disbelief.” Is that supposed to be sarcasm? It my parish, they literally would be. And I would say damage was done. Damage to the “sense of the sacred” during the mass, and the reverence allshould have especially those in the sanctuary!!!

 

[snowlake]

Yes
Altar serving does not involve the theology of the priesthood. The minor order of Acolyte did, but today there the minor orders are supressed and the office of Acolyte is open to any male. ] end quote

You keep repeating this, and neither I nor Adeodatus said that altar servers are the equivalent of Acolytes. He was (the way I read it) referring to the origin of altar servers
and the fact that it was a step to the priesthood. This is a part of the history of the Theology of the Priesthood. You said his point had nothing to do with theology. Of course it did! It might not be a good point, a relevant point, or a correct point, but it was indeed in reference to theology, which you took issue with in a very meanly worded response.

Quote:
[Altar servers in the modern sense of the word are not really acolytes. Parish altar servers are not part of the office of acoylte. They “fulfill and perform the functions” of acolyte the same as the female reader at Mass fulfills the function of Lector at Mass (also once a minor order).] end quote

I think you’ve mentioned this before, as I did and probably some others.

Quote:
[Secondly, Adeodatus’ 2nd point was a mysterious reference to “women’s rights/feminism.” That’s some kind of political argument not theological.
And Adeodatus’ 3rd point was that this is inching toward’s women’s ordination which is a conclusion that has no logical or reasonable foundation.
It comes from Adeodatus’ point #3 that female altar servers was “incing towards women’s ordination.” The only way that is possible is if people are confused into the erroneous connection between altar servers and priesthood.] end quote

His second point is tied in with the third. The third point is very reasonable considering the history of it all. The fact that altar servers are not considered a step toward the priesthood does not mean that there are not other reasons why all of this happened in the first place
that are indeed connected with the push for women priests. Of course this will never be the result, but it most obviously came from a THEOLOGY of feminism. The fact that there
is no connection between altar servers and the priesthood does not affect this.

 

[elgar]

perhaps the order you are looking at this is the other way around
female altar servers were allowed because fewer men and boys are attending and even fewer are willing to serve in the Mass

The damage is done. Any attempt to un-do any of these innovations would cause huge factions and most clergy do not want to go there.

 

[kozlosap]

Yes

Altar serving does not involve the theology of the priesthood. The minor order of Acolyte did, but today there the minor orders are supressed and the office of Acolyte is open to any male.
Altar servers in the modern sense of the word are not really acolytes. Parish altar servers are not part of the office of acoylte. They “fulfill and perform the functions” of acolyte the same as the female reader at Mass fulfills the function of Lector at Mass (also once a minor order).

Secondly, Adeodatus’ 2nd point was a mysterious reference to “women’s rights/feminism.” That’s some kind of political argument not theological.

And Adeodatus’ 3rd point was that this is inching toward’s women’s ordination which is a conclusion that has no logical or reasonable foundation.

It comes from Adeodatus’ point #3 that female altar servers was “incing towards women’s ordination.” The only way that is possible is if people are confused into the erroneous connection between altar servers and priesthood.

You wouldn’t know it from many posts here.

Thanks Father for your clarification! As a parent of a young woman who attended Catholic elementary school, a Jesuit University and was an alter server, I don’t ever remember a time when she thought a woman should become a priest, however, she did love being an alter server and someday (after she is finished with law school) train to be a lector. I certainly don’t remember any of the boy alter servers being shy about the girls - they had gone to school together for 6 or 7 years day in and day out and used each other if a substitution problem came up, etc. BTW, she loves the NO Mass. When we talked last night she said that she feels that the LM is beautiful and she appreciates the chanting and music but that the NO is more welcoming to her. Each to their own. The girls and boys my DD did alter serving with are now in grad school, and as far as I can discern, none have left the Church! God Bless everyone and their differences!

 

[choy]

The damage is done. Any attempt to un-do any of these innovations would cause huge factions and most clergy do not want to go there.

what damage?
in my parish we have all boys altar server. in our diocese its allowed to have female altar servers, my former parish had 2/3s of their altar servers as females.

not just because the rule is there means you have to apply it. parishes can always prefer boys over girls. but if there are not enough boys, what can you do? you can’t keep squeezing a dry sponge and expect water to come out.