Female Altar Servers

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Magnanimity

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Hi all!

I’m sure this has probably been covered here time and again, so please excuse my inquiring mind at this moment. But, I would simply like to know why girls serve at the altar when apparently women never will (cf. ordinatio sacerdotalis)? I simply want to hear the argument for why they should be serving at the altar if they will never be priests or deacons. I’m not being combative. I really would like to read a forceful argument for why girls should serve at the altar. For boys, I can see the argument of their serving leading possibly to increased sacerdotal vocations. I just want to encounter the argument by a strong advocate of female alter servers. Even if the argument comes from the Vatican, a theologian, layperson, or what have you.

I’ve wondered about this for some time now. Can anyone help me out?
 
  1. “Altar,” not “alter”
  2. It’s permitted by the Vatican. Girls who do this are not being disobedient to the Church, nor do they think they are being trained for the priesthood.
  3. It instills a sense of service to the Church, including possibly the chance to recognize a vocation to the Religious life (they could become nuns).
  4. Both girls and boys who serve at the Altar grow up to be strongly connected to their church, and are less likely to fall away from their faith during the teen and young adult years.
  5. The habit of voluntary service to the Church, nurtured at a young age, will pay dividends for years as they grow into generous adults.
 
Many boys my kids included have no interest in being altar servers…so if not enough boys have an interest what do you suggest the Priests do…go without??
 
Thanks for the reply. I really do appreciate it.
  1. It’s permitted by the Vatican.
Perhaps I was unclear. I am aware of its being permitted. What I was trying to get at was the argument for it-the reasons why it is permitted. To say it is permitted is to give the “what.” I’m looking for the “why.”
  1. It instills a sense of service to the Church, including possibly the chance to recognize a vocation to the Religious life (they could become nuns).
I have no desire to engage in a kind of tit-for-tat. But, in reply to the above it would seem that there are innumerable other ways of serving the Church, outside of one which will be impossible for them to realize when they become adults. Again, I’m wondering what their service is oriented toward. But, you mention the possibility of opening doors to consideration of a Religious life. I had considered that this might be part of the argument. And it would seem to be the strongest reason that occurred to me just thinking about it. However, of course, nuns don’t serve at the altar. And given that fact, it is at least questionable that to engage in an act for 7 or so years (an act like serving at the altar), which will absolutely stop upon entering the possible age for a Religious vocation seems disconnected.
  1. Both girls and boys who serve at the Altar grow up to be strongly connected to their church, and are less likely to fall away from their faith during the teen and young adult years.
OK, that’s certainly possible. I wonder whether we have empirical support for the claim, but I don’t see that it’s implausible. However, it would be hard to say, I hope you would admit, whether the serving at the altar was the very thing that lead to their being strongly connected to their church when the got older. There could, it seems to me, be all kinds of other factors that equally, if not more so, lead to this fostering of strong faith in adult Catholic life. (Say, for example, that the types of parents who put forth their children as altar servers are already the types of children who are likely to produce good Catholics in view of their being just good Catholic examples to their children.)

I’m not sure that I could grant that these are strong reasons for their serving at the altar of all things, but certainly would be strong reasons for having serious involvement in the life of their local parish community.

Thanks again for the reply.
 
Many boys my kids included have no interest in being altar servers…so if not enough boys have an interest what do you suggest the Priests do…go without??
Thanks for the reply, but that seems to be a rather weak argument, given that it wouldn’t hold in equally plausible scenarios. For example, you could make the exact same argument about a shortage of priests. Just reword what you said to render,
“Many men my kids included have no interest in being priests…so if not enough men have an interest what do you suggest the Vatican do…go without??”
Do you see what I’m getting at? If the majority of the Church’s theologians and bishops have not considered that to be a persuasive argument for female priests, what makes it all of the sudden a strong argument for female altar servers?

More importantly, however, is the problem of a lack of desire to serve, period, in the Church for the vast majority of Catholics today.

Why is there always a shortage of catechists in almost every parish?

Why is there a shortage of altar servers?

Why is there usually a shortage of funds?

Why do most adults, when given the opportunity to receive catechesis for themselves, usually opt out?

Why do many parishes hold annual Time and Talent fairs?

Why do many in charge of filling the time slots for Perpetual Adoration often have to do their best to actually line up people to come-practically begging people to commit?

I’m not asking you to answer these questions. I’m just pointing out the fundamental attitude problem of “Well, I don’t want to do that, so I guess the Church will have to find someone else (or someone else’s kids).”

Isn’t the simple question for a Catholic who has this attitude, “Someone has to serve. Why shouldn’t it be you? or your children? or your boys?”

We get to opt out of serving because we don’t have an interest in it?! Who is interested in serving?! in any capacity? Are most of us looking for ways in which we can give of our time and efforts? Wouldn’t many of us rather be served than serve? To serve necessarily involves loving, which necessarily involves some amount of suffering, in the form of self-sacrifice. Sacrificing our own interests for the good of others.

I know that sounds terribly noble, and although I’m saying it, I would be among the first to admit that I don’t come forward often enough either. But, that doesn’t answer the question I posed above, “Someone has to serve. Why shouldn’t it be you? or your children? or your boys?”

You don’t see a fundamental problem in expecting other people to take care of things because you (or your children) aren’t naturally interested in filling a need?
 
We get to opt out of serving because we don’t have an interest in it?! Who is interested in serving?! in any capacity? Are most of us looking for ways in which we can give of our time and efforts? Wouldn’t many of us rather be served than serve? To serve necessarily involves loving, which necessarily involves some amount of suffering, in the form of self-sacrifice. Sacrificing our own interests for the good of others.

I know that sounds terribly noble, and although I’m saying it, I would be among the first to admit that I don’t come forward often enough either. But, that doesn’t answer the question I posed above, “Someone has to serve. Why shouldn’t it be you? or your children? or your boys?”

You don’t see a fundamental problem in expecting other people to take care of things because you (or your children) aren’t naturally interested in filling a need?
I think it’s just a human trait, no, maybe an American trait, to let someone else do it. But you have to be called to it. In secular terms, how many are called to do the very difficult job of being a police officer or fireman? Or soldier? I did my time in the military, but would never dream of being a policeman. I also find it hard to put myself on public display, so when I serve the church, I do things like gardening.

Did you ever notice that many (note: not ALL) Catholic choirs don’t ever match up to some of the protestant choirs? In fact, some are just awful! But the truth is that many protestant choirs hire well-trained vocalists to do the singing. But in our churches, we depend on volunteers, and many times, these people cannot sing worth a hoot, though I do admire their guts to get up there and try. The Catholic church is ENTIRELY dependent on volunteers, from altar servers to the different groups, to the office staff. Some get paid for their work but I know most do not, and those that do receive modest salaries at best. Our daily mass server, as well as Sunday early mass server, is an elderly gentleman who seldom misses a mass.

My whole point is that we should, as the body of Christ, all devote more time to help our church in the service of God. But sadly, not many heed the call.
 
I think it’s just a human trait, no, maybe an American trait, to let someone else do it. But you have to be called to it. In secular terms, how many are called to do the very difficult job of being a police officer or fireman? Or soldier? I did my time in the military, but would never dream of being a policeman.
Hey there Banker David. This is a good reply, and I think all your comments are fitting. I too serve in the military (Reserves), and it is unlikely that I could ever see myself going active duty. But, that’s just the point. Someone has to serve. Why shouldn’t it be me? I kept asking myself this question, especially after I had visited Israel (Israeli soldiers ask the same question of themselves) and then after 9/11 happened. Sure, I don’t really have the demeanor for being a police officer or going active duty in the military. But, I (we) can do something, can’t we?

And that’s just the point. I would find it incredibly hard to believe that if most Catholics were asking the question, “What can I do to help?” instead of saying, “I’m just not interested in helping in that way,” that there would be anything near a shortage of altar servers or priests. We have this shortage specifically because we are not seeking in what ways we could serve. So I suspect, anyway.

But, I also suspect that the Church is very clever and infinitely more learned than myself. So, I suspected that there would be good reasons for having female altar servers. I would hate to think that it all boils down to our boys being too self-interested to conceive of such a possibility for themselves.
My whole point is that we should, as the body of Christ, all devote more time to help our church in the service of God. But sadly, not many heed the call.
I think that’s my point as well.
 
But, you mention the possibility of opening doors to consideration of a Religious life. I had considered that this might be part of the argument. And it would seem to be the strongest reason that occurred to me just thinking about it. However, of course, nuns don’t serve at the altar.
Yes, they do - and always have.

Service at the Altar was only forbidden for women and girls at Masses where there were boys available to serve, and at which lay people attended. But nuns have always served at the Altar at their own Masses, within the cloister.

I’m attaching a photograph of Little Thérèse herself (St. Therese de Lisieux, a Doctor of the Church) serving at the Altar while she was in the convent. 🙂

This is Plate 40A from The Photo Album of Ste. Therese of Lisieux found on page 195 of the Christian Classics hard cover edition published in 1990. It depicts her setting up the Altar just before a Mass is about to begin.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
 
Even before the church issued the clarification on allowing female altar servers, there were those serving. Friends of mine who have gone to Europe tell me that hardly any men attend Mass on a regular basis. In some churches right around Rome, they were women altar servers, way before the the new policy was issued. There are always plenty of male altar servers in the big events led by the pope that are televised. However, in the regular parishes, men are just not going to Mass. Mass attendance is at all time low levels in all of Europe. The Magisterium is very concerned about this.:hmmm:
 
Yes, they do - and always have.

Service at the Altar was only forbidden for women and girls at Masses where there were boys available to serve, and at which lay people attended. But nuns have always served at the Altar at their own Masses, within the cloister.

I’m attaching a photograph of Little Thérèse herself (St. Therese de Lisieux, a Doctor of the Church) serving at the Altar while she was in the convent. 🙂

This is Plate 40A from The Photo Album of Ste. Therese of Lisieux found on page 195 of the Christian Classics hard cover edition published in 1990. It depicts her setting up the Altar just before a Mass is about to begin.

http://www.logicalbutterflies.com/illustrations/LittleFlower.jpg
No, you’ve attached an article showing St. Therese of Lisieux performing SACRISTAN duties. Since you’ve offered it, please, share with us a picture of her serving the mass.

Find me a picture of ANY woman serving in the sanctuary during a Tridentine Mass. You may find some difficulty because it would not happen. Women were permitted to offer the responses from the OTHER side of the altar rail.
 
And isn’t a Sacristan higher above than an Altar server?

Anyway, the photo shows that women were certainly permitted to go near the Altar in those days. and to assist their priest.
 
Now I am intrigued. If there were no female altar servers in the Tridentine Rite, who served in the convents? Or did the nuns leave their cloister for Mass?
 
And isn’t a Sacristan higher above than an Altar server?

Anyway, the photo shows that women were certainly permitted to go near the Altar in those days. and to assist their priest.
Who said women (nuns or otherwise) were not permitted to assist a priest?

The issue here is whether women were permitted to serve the altar. The answer is no, they were most definitely not.

As for going near the altar, this picture does not indicate that at all, as the priest carries the chalice out to the altar. So this picture proves (even though no one disputed such facts) that a woman at the time was permitted to place a clean purificator and pall on the chalice.

As for your claim that a Sacristan is above an Altar Server, I fail to understand what exactly you are stating. They are two seperate and completely distinct functions. One exists solely within the context of the liturgy, while the other exists outside the context of the liturgy (in the sense that a Sacristan prepares before the mass and cleans up after the mass, there is no liturgical function).
 
Now I am intrigued. If there were no female altar servers in the Tridentine Rite, who served in the convents?
If not the women, then I don’t know.
Or did the nuns leave their cloister for Mass?
No - they weren’t allowed to leave the cloister for any reason - and the only male permitted inside was their own priest.
 
Women who were not in a religious order were not allowed on the altar during mass. Religious served but did so in there habits and only in their convents. There was an acception to this rule and that was when a woman was married to a Catholic. Then a women was allowed on the altar.

At one time, a mixed marriage wasn’t even allowed in the church building. My aunt was married at the rectory. Then it was allowed in the church only the bride and groom were not allowed on the altar.

This is an interesting thread or could be one.:rolleyes:

I don’t think the challenge of why has ever been brought up before.

We have a 7 a.m. mass and no children who will serve it. Mine were the last to do so before they graduated from high school. For a long time, the priest had no one. Then my husband offered and he accepted him. I have been told the priest prefers to have adults.

So if there aren’t enough children to serve there is no reason an adult couldn’t.👍
 
Hi all!

I’m sure this has probably been covered here time and again, so please excuse my inquiring mind at this moment. But, I would simply like to know why girls serve at the altar when apparently women never will (cf. ordinatio sacerdotalis)? I simply want to hear the argument for why they should be serving at the altar if they will never be priests or deacons. I’m not being combative. I really would like to read a forceful argument for why girls should serve at the altar. For boys, I can see the argument of their serving leading possibly to increased sacerdotal vocations. I just want to encounter the argument by a strong advocate of female alter servers. Even if the argument comes from the Vatican, a theologian, layperson, or what have you.

I’ve wondered about this for some time now. Can anyone help me out?
I don’t think there is an ‘argument’ for it…lol My daughter is an altar server, because she loves serving the priest, her parish…and most importantly, God. Although I am a firm believer that only men should be ordained as priests, I also know that Jesus appreciated men and women’s abilities to serve. And, this is just a way that girls/women can serve in the Church. My daughter doesn’t get upset that men are priests, but she feels that she has been called by the Holy Spirit to do such a task.

See? I didn’t ‘‘argue’’ once!😃
 
Women who were not in a religious order were not allowed on the altar during mass. Religious served but did so in there habits and only in their convents. There was an acception to this rule and that was when a woman was married to a Catholic. Then a women was allowed on the altar.

At one time, a mixed marriage wasn’t even allowed in the church building. My aunt was married at the rectory. Then it was allowed in the church only the bride and groom were not allowed on the altar.

This is an interesting thread or could be one.:rolleyes:

I don’t think the challenge of why has ever been brought up before.

We have a 7 a.m. mass and no children who will serve it. Mine were the last to do so before they graduated from high school. For a long time, the priest had no one. Then my husband offered and he accepted him. I have been told the priest prefers to have adults.

So if there aren’t enough children to serve there is no reason an adult couldn’t.👍
actually, adults serve sometimes, during the early early (6:45am) weekday masses…because kids are in heading to school, at that time. I have also seen adults serve on the weekends, but it’s rare, I think.
 
Altar servers are not required in either the traditional or new Mass. A priest doesn’t really, strictly speaking, “need” a server at all.
 
Altar servers are not required in either the traditional or new Mass. A priest doesn’t really, strictly speaking, “need” a server at all.
I wondered that myself…I would like to hear the history behind altar serving…if anyone knows of it?
 
I wondered that myself…I would like to hear the history behind altar serving…if anyone knows of it?
I don’t know if this is true or not, but the sisters in my grade school told us that long ago, back when Mass was said in the catacombs, there was always the possibility that persecutors would suddenly attack, and that the servers were grown men whose duty it was to guard the priest and the sacrament against such an invasion. Nowadays, they told us, that danger had passed, and young boys were servers in memory of that older need. But, they said, one never knows, and if someone should attack, we, as the guardians of the Eucharist, were obligated to do our level best to protect it.

As boys, of course, that prospect filled us with a bit of apprehension, but also with a great sense of purpose. We were the protectors of the priest and the Eucharist! Now there was a task worthy of a hero! As boys, we were being trusted with the most noble and manly of all imaginable tasks.

Even the secular world has begun to realize boys in this society underachieve relative to girls. It is my belief that boys require a great deal of challenge; more so than do girls, who seem to fit into proper attitudes and useful roles much more easily. Men are the same way. To be motivated, men must be challenged much more sharply than is the case with women. Unfortunately, too often in the Church, as is now becoming obvious in American society generally, there really is no “challenge” role for boys; particularly one that is gender-specific. Girls seem to know naturally “who they are”. Boys have to build “who they are” from a zero baseline. That’s why boys need to have “boy specific” roles and are not challenged or comfortable with being faced with the same duties or tasks as girls have. That, I think, is why one sees a lot of altar girls nowadays, but few altar boys. There is no defining “boy role” in the Church anymore. That, I think, is a very good reason for using boys exclusively as altar servers. Unchallenged boys; boys with no role definitions or models other than the natural outlawry of their peers, turn into Huns and Tartars; not into knights and priests. That’s precisely what we see so much of today.

I am sure some girls felt bad not being altar servers back before girls could be altar servers, but I have never met one, though I have asked dozens of women about that.

Finally, I think the Church could usefully consider a point I learned long ago in politics. That is, if you want someone to do something, you don’t wait for them to volunteer; you ask them to do it. With men that is particularly important. You ask a particular man to do something, face-to-face, and most likely he’ll do it. You sit around and wait for him to do it on his own, and you’ll wait forever. Women, on the other hand, probably volunteer 10-to-one over men for Church functions.

I’m not putting women down here, and don’t want to deprive them of anything truly important. I am married to a woman, after all, and have four daughters and five granddaughters, for whom I pray for happy, holy and fulfilled lives. But I truly do believe the emphasis in the U.S. Church on feminization has gone too far, and as a result, I think the boys are being given the message that the Church as an institution has little interest in them. In truth, among many of the feminist activists in the American Church who seem to determine so much, they’re right in thinking it.
 
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