Female Altar Servers

[childofmary1143]

Can I ask if this is the correct date that female Altar servers were allowed??

If this is correct, I’m confused…I began serving in 5th grade, and that was 1986-87. Archdiocese of Chicago.

Having been a female altar server, I can now confidently tell my daughter ‘no honey’ when she ever asks if she can be one.

The whole idea behind girls being allowed to serve mass is that “It doesn’t matter to God if you are a boy or a girl”, which flies in the face of Catholic theology. It does matter. Immensely. And, as a woman, I have the opportunity to serve God in a way no man can.

I don’t get why people try SO hard trying to make men and women equal with the jobs, or vocations they have, when we are all profoundly MORE equal and valuable in God’s eyes then we can comprehend. Nothing we do in this life can make our value more ‘equal’ than it already is.

I thought the Vatican approved of Altar Girls in 1994. However, MANY Bishops did break Canon Law by allowing it earlier then that date.

 

[a_priori]

We don’t have any Altar servers so the subject never comes up.

 

[Brendan]

Uh, indeed you did, sir:

I am relieved to see you recanting that stance now.
{/quote]

I’m recanting nothing! I’m am simply clarifing what has always been my position.

It’s clear there is no direct casuality. That would indicate that every parish that has only boys in altar service is blessed with vocations. That is simply not the case.

I am merely wondering if there are any examples of parishs produce large numbers of vocations that also have altar girls.

My personal experience is that every such parish has also had only altar boys.

Furthermore, I see you looking toward the environmental factors that contribute to encouraging vocations which I believe is the right place to look. I would, at this time, disagree that such an environment necessitates the exclusion of female servers as there is insufficient data.

 

[MrS]

[1] I have found that perhaps the *(over-use and the) * use of Female altar servers is likely an abuse (and appears that it ) is contrary to Vatican wishes.

[2] …How about everyone weigh in her as to what their opinion would be if Benedict 16 issued a decree forbidding Female Altar Servers…I have a hunch that B16 is not a fan of female altar servers.

]3] Also what is everyones opinion on Alice Von hildebrands disdain for Girl Altar boys.?

Actually I think [1] and [2] work together. It certainly, and clearly, appears that the Vatican “wishes” for men and boys - if only because Benedict XVI is following JPII’s example and using only altar boys… no girls.

As for [3], Alice Vonhildebrand is quite an intellegent lady, and certainly knows
what is tradition, and what is not …
what is acceptable and what is not
what is “pushing the envelope”, and what is not
what is behind the “change” in server status, and what is not.
what damages some priests are causing,
what damages some progressives are causing

… and from the female prospective, besides!!

She has no “distain” for the servers, boy or girl. But she rightfully has a distain for the abuses-become-norms we see in the Church today. Some come from the laity, some from the clerical. As we welcome stronger bishops … we will see stronger authority.

The Pope has predicted a smaller, stronger Church. I for one applaud the strong, more than I bemoan the smaller.

.

 

[MrS]

Strummer;2385200:

Uh, indeed you did, sir:
I am relieved to see you recanting that stance now.
{/quote]

I’m recanting nothing! I’m am simply clarifing what has always been my position.

It’s clear there is no direct casuality. That would indicate that every parish that has only boys in altar service is blessed with vocations. That is simply not the case.

I am merely wondering if there are any examples of parishs produce large numbers of vocations that also have altar girls.

My personal experience is that every such parish has also had only altar boys.

In our parish, we have had 6 men Ordained to the priesthood in the last 10 years. All are to the diocesan priesthood (and all are still priests

)

Considering the large majority of young priests being ordained come from ‘traditional’ backgrounds, I think we will see some different experiences in many parishes.

Hang in there Brendan…

Reminds me of the time when Michael Jordan was top news for years… he was great at what he did, no doubt. And countless boys would say, “I wanna be like Mike”. (perhaps a girl here or there too… but that was without reality)

As we see more and more young priests - great priests - entering the seminaries and performing beautifully in their parish assignments, we are bound to hear more young men say “I wanna be like Fr. _____” (perhaps a girl here or there too… but that will be without reality too!)

Bottom line… girls and boys are different. But I do notice the high percentage of “female-altar-boys” defenders are women… and the high percentage of “altar-boys” seems to be men.

“They” seem to have a priest here and there who agrees with them.

“We” seem to have a female theologian (Vonhildebrand) and a long line of bishops (of Rome, at least) who agree with boys only.

From a personal experience, our rather new pastor (2 years now) has led by example. Male servers up from 4-6 to over 20. Felmale servers down from 6-8 to 3. (With no loss in numbers from other group teen activities etc.) … and the boys only wear the cassock/surplice which they did not even have till last year… and the girls wear albs only.

And (in spite of the always-present dissenter or two ) it appears the parish as a whole is more “at peace” with positive, “traditional” direction!!

 

[THurifer2]

Does this mean you received any response yet? If so, what exactly did they say?

Oh no I haven’t heard a response I am mailing the inquiry today so I am sure it will be awhile. WIth that in mind my parish deacon told me that “dicastery” will respond and they will also cc the bishop in their response.

It will be interesting to see what (if any) the answer to the question is.

 

[Brendan]

A
So, clearly we have a parish with female altar servers which also is discerning a large number of vocations. Let’s hope we can put that particular argument to rest now.

Not quite.

Here is from the website

The 42-year-old parish has produced one of the 17 diocesan priests ordained in the diocese’s 10-year history and has two other men completing theology studies for religious orders. It’s also nurtured three others who became priests when the parish was part of the Diocese of Nashville.

The criteria I put forward is 4 men currently studying to the priesthood.

As I mentioned our parish has 6 men in the seminary right now, and has another 6 ordained in the last 10 years.

This parish has had 1 single man ordained in the last ten years. And 4 others in the last 20+

It has 2 men discerning religious life. Great, so do we ( I excluded other vocations, but I can talk about those too. We have 2 men discerning religious life, 3 men in formation to the Diaconate and 3 women in noviate\postulant programs)

So even with the 2 men studying towards religious life, it still doesn’t meet the criteria of the challenge,’

To produce evidence of current vocations to the priesthood that rises to 2/3 the level of my parish and the others like it.

 

[THurifer2]

She has no “distain” for the servers, boy or girl. But she rightfully has a distain for the abuses-become-norms we see in the Church today. Some come from the laity, some from the clerical. As we welcome stronger bishops … we will see stronger authority…

Alice Von Hildebrand-

Her paper on Traditionalism directly addresses the dangerous fraying from the use of altar girls. From what I read she thinks it is a big mistake by her wording.
Altar girls ewtn.com/library/LITURGY/SACREDTR.TXT

We cannot conclude without alluding to the last break with tradition which has
recently taken place in allowing girls to serve at the altar. This took place despite the
Holy Father’s publication in 1980 of which solemnly outlawed
the practice. Not only did the papal about-face reward disobedience (many bishops had
allowed this practice in their dioceses in disregard of the Holy See) but, once again, the
sacred cord of tradition has been dangerously frayed--------Alice Von Hildebrand.

The Pope has predicted a smaller, stro nger Church. I for one applaud the strong, more than I bemoan the smaller…

I totally agree here with this statement…the language of some of the bishops…make me wonder if there is going to be an unofficial “schism” in our church. One where the Liberals just keep doing what they want to and completely and totally disregard anything coming from Rome. (people must realize the outright disobedience of the Amercian bishops by using female altar servers after the 1980 papal directive of course JPII did approve them in 1994 but they had been used way way way longer than that)

 

[Rykell]

It seems like a popularity contest to say my post trumps your post, and I prove it by my personal isolated statistic.

Does it really matter what any of us thinks as long as the church is presently giving permission? Or does anyone care whose ace trumps the last post?

We are barking up a wrong tree here in complaining to one another. If it bothers some folks that much, the place to make your voice heard is the Magisterium. Even then, there may be no change. It would take a majority of bishops hearing the same types of arguments to even consider the possibility of banishing females, together with a realistic statistic proving beyond a doubt that one is right.

 

[THurifer2]

It would take a majority of bishops hearing the same types of arguments to even consider the possibility of banishing females,.

It would only take a simple stroke of the pen of the Pope to do such a thing.

 

[MrS]

…the language of some of the bishops…make me wonder if there is going to be an unofficial “schism” in our church. One where the Liberals just keep doing what they want to and completely and totally disregard anything coming from Rome. (people must realize the outright disobedience of the Amercian bishops by using female altar servers after the 1980 papal directive of course JPII did approve them in 1994 but they had been used way way way longer than that)

We never lack of something to pray for do we?

If there is a “schism”, I think it will be easily recognizable. It will no doubt incorporate ALL the abuse-made-norm changes we have seen this past forty years of wandering in the dessert - from altar girl-boys to readers to overuse of EMsHC, to reception of Communion and wreckovation of our churches.

And it won’t take a genius to see that such a move will have support from existing “activist” priests and bishops and the laity who have a sad misconception of “active participation”… and rejection by the traditional bishops and priests (and seminarians).

.

 

[Brendan]

It seems like a popularity contest to say my post trumps your post, and I prove it by my personal isolated statistic…

We haven’t even gotten to statistics yet, we’re just examining the raw data.

It’s called Reasoned Debate.

I postulate that the environmental variables that produce large numbers of vocations to the priesthood are not entirely independant from the variables that encourage an all male altar boy cadre.

I produced data points to support my premise and encouraged peer review of the data plus requested data points in opposition.

Note that I am requesting “Data Points”, it’s only after the data points are examined that any meaningful statistic can be produced.

I am confident that the sample size of parishes that allow altar girls is large enough to produce a meaningful statistic, but we are not at that stage yet.

Also note that I am not posulating that the Holy See was somehow in error in allowing females to serve at the altar, I’m just examining some of the potential ramifications to that decision.

 

[zuzu]

I can understand the whole “girl Altar servers can encourage female vocations to the religious life” argument, but it completely disregards one HUGE fact- through assisting at Mass, Altar servers are becoming acquainted with the role of the priest in the Sacrifice of the Altar. They are familiarized with the actions of the priest who is offering the Sacrifice in the person of Christ. There it is: they are being exposed to the actions of the Holy Priesthood and thus influenced by it. What good would this do for a female server who cannot be a priest? She is not being exposed to the roles of a Sister in the Church who she may aspire to be, but to the priest whom she could not ever be. In the worst case scenario, a female altar server might forget her place.

You make it sound as if its a ‘disease’ or something…being ‘exposed’ to the actions of the priest!!!
Everyone who attends Mass, whether male or female is ‘exposed’ to the same actions. If you really mean what you say, i’m surprised that you don’t go all the way and have ‘male only’ congregations.

 

[zuzu]

I haven’t read this whole thread, so I hope this post doesn’t sound out in left field.

Our diocese encourages female altar servers. And we actually have a surplus of seminarians.

I hope Brendan has seen this

 

[Lovemyfaith]

I said it before, maybe about a million posts ago on this thread, that being in a very traditional parish certainly helps the young men who want to become priests. Most parishes, however, are not like that. Not around here a least. Serving is not priority to most of these kids, so it would seem it doesn’t need to be part of the equation in forming vocations. That does not mean any of the young men in my parish would not make wonderful priests. I think our seminary does a wonderful job, once it gets the men. If I went door to door to every male member of this parish between the ages of 11 and 25 (not to say older men can’t enter the seminary) and asked why or why not they would ever consider becoming a priest, I am sure I would get many reasons, more so than because there are female servers in this parish. I doubt that would even come up.

I also have to say, now that there are female servers it would seem by the logic that serving encourages vocations, there should be many girls now beating on the doors of the seminaries demanding admission. I don’t see that happening, so I don’t worry about that either.

 

[Brendan]

I hope Brendan has seen this

Yes, I have.

And I replied that it should therefore be easy for Cat to show me a parish in Cat’s diocese that currently has 4 or more men in the seminary AND altar girls.

I haven’t seen a response back yet.

 

[THurifer2]

I haven’t read this whole thread, so I hope this post doesn’t sound out in left field.

Our diocese encourages female altar servers. And we actually have a surplus of seminarians.

most likely an exception. I know of only 2-3 dioceses that have a “surplus” of smeinarians. Could you please name the diocese?
Also what is your definition of “surplus”. Prior to th e1960s here in the U.S.A. even smaller parishes often had 2 priests. WHen I was growing up my smaller parish (350 families) had 3 priests. We never considered it to be a “surplus”. Of course this was back when altar boys…were …boys. I don’t think girls are anywhere near the sole reason for vocations shortages…but I do think it is a contributing factor.

 

[Brendan]

I said it before, maybe about a million posts ago on this thread, that being in a very traditional parish certainly helps the young men who want to become priests. .

That is what I am trying to examine.

Do the same environmental variarbles that encourage vocations ALSO encourage an all male altar boy cadre?

In other words do Variables X,Y,Z produce BOTH ‘result A’ (>4 vocations) AND ‘result B’ (all altar boy cadres)

So far, the results seem to favor that conclusion, that is why I am looking for just ONE SINGLE CASE to disprove the conclusion.

 

[THurifer2]

I am going to have to side with Brendan here. I know for fact as I was witness to the “arrival” of altar Girls. As I have stated in the past, as a young man my parish had 5 dozen altar boys…we were enrolled into a society, our priest told us the sole reason for us being selected (yes selected, not all were asked) was for the discernment of the priesthood. This was way back in the late 70s (yes I know my parish was going against rome at the time by introducing Girls) Within 1 week of the priest accepting a new assignment there was a special server meeting and there were girls (some were forced by their “feminist” mothers to attend) there. The senior boys ALL quit and the ranks diminished significantly. It happened almost over night. Priestly vocations were NEVER mentioned again at training. The last vocation to come from that parish went to seminary about 6 months before “the change” and there hasn’t been a “nibble” in the last 30 years NOT ONE. The whole thing is vivid in my mind (One thing I do remember was the knights of columbus quit taking the altar boys to the annual pro baseball game the girls didn’t like it) There is not a single doubt in my mind that this occurance at least didn’t have "some’ impact on vocations…the proof is in the pudding (at least where I grew up) I visit home from time to time and I simply cannot remember the last time I have seen a boy altar server at that parish…and I mean it has been decades. Of course I am biased…but the rug was pulled out from under some boys who were serious about “considering” the priesthood. We were blindsided.

 

[Lovemyfaith]

That is what I am trying to examine.
In other words do Variables X,Y,Z produce BOTH ‘result A’ (>4 vocations) AND ‘result B’ (all altar boy cadres)

I suppose only the Holy Spirit knows exactly what produces a priest. Maybe it is the free will of the young men that allows the influences to interfere. If there is a strong catholic community surrounding him, who don’t say things like “maybe you should go to college first and then see if you feel the same way” or “my son is so bright he could be a doctor or lawyer”, that would certainly help. In the same way the community should guard against excuses like not serving because there are girl servers or thinking the church is failing because of things like female servers.

In my diocese, I know of only one parish that had two seminarians ordained in the same class in the past few years. The two from the same parish were from a county that is known for being more traditional in terms of the availability of Exposition of the Eucharist, Priest duties and fewer Special Ministers, but I think all of the parishes do use female servers. I would get from that there are other faithful influences besides an all male server group.