Female Altar Servers

[spellinggirl]

“Dear Sweetheart, I am sorry that you are not a woman and can’t have a baby; but God ordained it that way!”

As you can see from that one comment there ARE cases where certain roles are reserved for men or women. The Sacrifice of the Mass and Sanctuary have always been filled with men. Women perform the submissive, humble role; praying in the pew and covering their head out of respect to Our Lord.

To serve Christ is to know our place and humbly keep it.
Women serve Our Lord just as earnestly in the pew praying for the souls of poor sinners as much as the boys do so in the sanctuary acting as altar servers.

This arguement is silly. Girls can serve God in all sorts of various ways…it doesn’t have to be in the leadership role
that the men take. Your daughter can go help the poor, reach out to the neglected child on the block, pray for sinners, bring her friends to church… etc… all to serve Christ earnestly.

Mass is not about “her”. It’s about serving CHRIST. The sooner she understands that the better she will learn to serve as Christ would like her to like Mary did: in humility.

I’m sorry, but why on earth do you believe that a woman’s “place” is to be submissive, meek, and humble?! Where in the Bible does it say that women have to be virtual slaves?! If this is the way you think, you are of course entitled to your own opinion, but I just can’t understand that!

There are some who are leaders, and some who are followers. You are clearly a follower, but that does NOT give you the right to label a woman’s “place” in Mass. I am a proud altar server (female), and as a matter of fact, I do a great job at it. Why does my sex determine where I should be?

Altar servers should be defined by their reverence, sense of duty, and responsibility, NOT gender.

 

[una_ecclesia]

As you can see from that one comment there ARE cases where certain roles are reserved for men or women. The Sacrifice of the Mass and Sanctuary have always been filled with men. Women perform the submissive, humble role; praying in the pew and covering their head out of respect to Our Lord.

Even though I am a female server, I agree to an extent. We as Catholics in general should practice humility and submit to others. But I still have one question. By saying that the “Sacrifice of the Mass and Sanctuary” are only reserved for men, do you mean only the role of the priest himself or all the roles served in the church from priest to lector to singer in the chorus etc. (I’m just kind of unclear as to your wording is specifically pointing to ). If you mean the priest himself, I agree wholeheartedly with you. This is a role reserved only for man, just as being a mother is reserved only for woman.

Still I don’t see what is wrong with both men and women serving God in other roles within the Mass. This includes altar serving, especially since servers are not ordained like priests are. There are certain roles that both men and women can fufill as Catholics in and out of the mass and they both have much to contribute to.

About covering the head… do you mean literally as stated by St. Paul in the scriptures, or in a broader sense, implying that women should be always be modest and humble in their way of dressing? I’m just a little curious (just answer briefly, so we can stay on topic with altar serving )

To serve Christ is to know our place and humbly keep it.
Women serve Our Lord just as earnestly in the pew praying for the souls of poor sinners as much as the boys do so in the sanctuary acting as altar servers.

You are right again, but why can’t men and women do both? Whether I myself am altar serving or in the congregation, I participate in the mass (or at least try really hard to… we all have our lapses sometimes ) and yes, I pray for the poor sinners while serving, especially the one whom I should be worried about the most: myself.

This arguement is silly. Girls can serve God in all sorts of various ways…it doesn’t have to be in the leadership role
that the men take. Your daughter can go help the poor, reach out to the neglected child on the block, pray for sinners, bring her friends to church… etc… all to serve Christ earnestly.

Great! If she is called to do any if the things just mentioned above by God, then that’s awesome! In fact, we all (both men and women) are called to help others andbring them to the faith.

Just one thing…

Please help me understand… do you think that being a priest (or altar server) is merely a leadership role? They are sure leaders, but more importantly, they lead by serving. For me, the mark of true altar serving is not that I be recognized as a leader, but that I serve God and others by helping the congregation pray. In fact, it has taught me humility in the sense that I do exactly what is implied in the name; I serve. How does that go against “sering Christ earnestly?”

Mass is not about “her”. It’s about serving CHRIST. The sooner she understands that the better she will learn to serve as Christ would like her to like Mary did: in humility.

Once again, you are right. The Mass is not about “her,” but it is not about “him” either. It is not even about the priest himself. It is about, as you stated, Christ. All the roles fufilled in the Mass, whether it be the priest, altar server, lector, Eucharistic minister, singer, or member of the congregation should be done with reverence and humility.

I know my comments are all over the place, so please forgive me (I’m not the best writer and am certainly not the most organized). I probably did not even answer to all your comments, but I just wanted to show you what altar serving altar has helped me realize. I started when I was 11 years old, thinking that it was about being a leader and being priviledged by being in front of the church. Now I realize that it is really the opposite.

by the way… welcome to the forums (I know you did not mention it but I see you have joined very recently) and God bless!

 

[spellinggirl]

Even though I am a female server, I agree to an extent. We as Catholics in general should practice humility and submit to others. But I still have one question. By saying that the “Sacrifice of the Mass and Sanctuary” are only reserved for men, do you mean only the role of the priest himself or all the roles served in the church from priest to lector to singer in the chorus etc. (I’m just kind of unclear as to your wording is specifically pointing to ). If you mean the priest himself, I agree wholeheartedly with you. This is a role reserved only for man, just as being a mother is reserved only for woman.

Still I don’t see what is wrong with both men and women serving God in other roles within the Mass. This includes altar serving, especially since servers are not ordained like priests are. There are certain roles that both men and women can fufill as Catholics in and out of the mass and they both have much to contribute to.

About covering the head… do you mean literally as stated by St. Paul in the scriptures, or in a broader sense, implying that women should be always be modest and humble in their way of dressing? I’m just a little curious (just answer briefly, so we can stay on topic with altar serving )

You are right again, but why can’t men and women do both? Whether I myself am altar serving or in the congregation, I participate in the mass (or at least try really hard to… we all have our lapses sometimes ) and yes, I pray for the poor sinners while serving, especially the one whom I should be worried about the most: myself.

Great! If she is called to do any if the things just mentioned above by God, then that’s awesome! In fact, we all (both men and women) are called to help others andbring them to the faith.

Just one thing…

Please help me understand… do you think that being a priest (or altar server) is merely a leadership role? They are sure leaders, but more importantly, they lead by serving. For me, the mark of true altar serving is not that I be recognized as a leader, but that I serve God and others by helping the congregation pray. In fact, it has taught me humility in the sense that I do exactly what is implied in the name; I serve. How does that go against “sering Christ earnestly?”

Once again, you are right. The Mass is not about “her,” but it is not about “him” either. It is not even about the priest himself. It is about, as you stated, Christ. All the roles fufilled in the Mass, whether it be the priest, altar server, lector, Eucharistic minister, singer, or member of the congregation should be done with reverence and humility.

I know my comments are all over the place, so please forgive me (I’m not the best writer and am certainly not the most organized). I probably did not even answer to all your comments, but I just wanted to show you what altar serving altar has helped me realize. I started when I was 11 years old, thinking that it was about being a leader and being priviledged by being in front of the church. Now I realize that it is really the opposite.

by the way… welcome to the forums (I know you did not mention it but I see you have joined very recently) and God bless!

Absolutely right.

 

[EasterJoy]

“Dear Sweetheart, I am sorry that you are not a woman and can’t have a baby; but God ordained it that way!”

As you can see from that one comment there ARE cases where certain roles are reserved for men or women. The Sacrifice of the Mass and Sanctuary have always been filled with men. Women perform the submissive, humble role; praying in the pew and covering their head out of respect to Our Lord.

To serve Christ is to know our place and humbly keep it.
Women serve Our Lord just as earnestly in the pew praying for the souls of poor sinners as much as the boys do so in the sanctuary acting as altar servers.

This arguement is silly. Girls can serve God in all sorts of various ways…it doesn’t have to be in the leadership role
that the men take. Your daughter can go help the poor, reach out to the neglected child on the block, pray for sinners, bring her friends to church… etc… all to serve Christ earnestly.

Mass is not about “her”. It’s about serving CHRIST. The sooner she understands that the better she will learn to serve as Christ would like her to like Mary did: in humility.

Altar serving isn’t a leadership role. It isn’t the priesthood. It is not the altar server who acts in the person of Christ, but the priest only. If it were otherwise, it would not be appropriate that unconfirmed Catholics, who have not even been fully initiated, fulfill that role.

The holy women followed Our Lord and the Apostles, and saw to their needs out of their own means. They remained at the foot of the Cross when among the men only St. John remained. Except for when the case where one is ordained to literally stand in the ritual place of Christ the Head, there should not be “Jew nor Greek, male or female, slave or free…”

At any rate, as long as we’re throwing humility into the mix: if Rome says it is permissible, it is not for the laity to say it is not permissible. We all should remember to whom the power to bind and loose has been given.

 

[EasterJoy]

I’m sorry, but why on earth do you believe that a woman’s “place” is to be submissive, meek, and humble?! Where in the Bible does it say that women have to be virtual slaves?! If this is the way you think, you are of course entitled to your own opinion, but I just can’t understand that!

There are some who are leaders, and some who are followers. You are clearly a follower, but that does NOT give you the right to label a woman’s “place” in Mass. I am a proud altar server (female), and as a matter of fact, I do a great job at it. Why does my sex determine where I should be?

Altar servers should be defined by their reverence, sense of duty, and responsibility, NOT gender.

All Christians are to be meek and humble, according to the Beatitudes. Who of us can be proud, when we do no more than our duty? Who has room to boast? All of us are “followers”. As for slavery, those among us who are the leaders are to be the servants of all. The passage does not just say “there is no male nor female” but also that “there is no slave or free.” Furthermore, there is nothing in Scriptures that indicates for a moment that the un-ordained lack dignity before God.

Our Lady, the Model of Christians, was not ordained. Just as Our Lord did not deem equality with God something to be grasped at, so has Our Lady ever been. That God chooses to use one vessel for this purpose and another vessel for another purpose does not change that. Who of us can claim we have been more humbled than Our Lord?

I don’t disagree that service at the altar should be open to girls if it is open to boys, as there is nothing in the nature of the position that dictates otherwise. Still, there are no power politics in the Kingdom of God. We should not make this debate about that, do you think? It seems to me that it abandons the point entirely.

 

[una_ecclesia]

All Christians are to be meek and humble, according to the Beatitudes. Who of us can be proud, when we do no more than our duty? Who has room to boast? All of us are “followers”. As for slavery, those among us who are the leaders are to be the servants of all. The passage does not just say “there is no male nor female” but also that “there is no slave or free.” Furthermore, there is nothing in Scriptures that indicates for a moment that the un-ordained lack dignity before God.

Our Lady, the Model of Christians, was not ordained. Just as Our Lord did not deem equality with God something to be grasped at, so has Our Lady ever been. That God chooses to use one vessel for this purpose and another vessel for another purpose does not change that. Who of us can claim we have been more humbled than Our Lord?

I don’t disagree that service at the altar should be open to girls if it is open to boys, as there is nothing in the nature of the position that dictates otherwise. Still, there are no power politics in the Kingdom of God. We should not make this debate about that, do you think? It seems to me that it abandons the point entirely.

Great post!

 

[spellinggirl]

All Christians are to be meek and humble, according to the Beatitudes. Who of us can be proud, when we do no more than our duty? Who has room to boast? All of us are “followers”. As for slavery, those among us who are the leaders are to be the servants of all. The passage does not just say “there is no male nor female” but also that “there is no slave or free.” Furthermore, there is nothing in Scriptures that indicates for a moment that the un-ordained lack dignity before God.

Our Lady, the Model of Christians, was not ordained. Just as Our Lord did not deem equality with God something to be grasped at, so has Our Lady ever been. That God chooses to use one vessel for this purpose and another vessel for another purpose does not change that. Who of us can claim we have been more humbled than Our Lord?

I don’t disagree that service at the altar should be open to girls if it is open to boys, as there is nothing in the nature of the position that dictates otherwise. Still, there are no power politics in the Kingdom of God. We should not make this debate about that, do you think? It seems to me that it abandons the point entirely.

I agree with all that you said. I was not trying to make it into a debate; I do not think women should be priests. I was simply trying to point out that Wise Queen’s ideas of a woman’s “place” under a man’s “place” was slightly misguided and more than a little sexist.

 

[Brendan]

I don’t disagree that service at the altar should be open to girls if it is open to boys, as there is nothing in the nature of the position that dictates otherwise. .

Sort of.

The Vatican has stated that boys are permitted to serve at the altar.

The use of girls is allows in addition, but it requires the permission of the bishop before they are used in the diocese.

In addition, the Vatican has also stated that a bishop may not mandate that girls be used. If a bishop (or pastor) has chosen to permit them, any particular celebrant may choose to use only boys\men.

 

[spellinggirl]

Sort of.

The Vatican has stated that boys are permitted to serve at the altar.

The use of girls is allows in addition, but it requires the permission of the bishop before they are used in the diocese.

In addition, the Vatican has also stated that a bishop may not mandate that girls be used. If a bishop (or pastor) has chosen to permit them, any particular celebrant may choose to use only boys\men.

100% true, although there are hardly any bishops (at least in the USA) who do not permit girls to serve anymore.

 

[RLT]

If females are going to be permitted to be altar servers, which I have no problems with, they should atleast prescribe more fitting attire. Girls should wear something that resemble nun like habits just like boys were monk-like albs and priest-like cossacks. It looks strange to me to see females wear what are really masculine attire.

I’m not saying they should wear a whole 5 piece Carmalite habit but a simple version like a tunic with vieled crown.

Just a thougt…

 

[Brendan]

100% true, although there are hardly any bishops (at least in the USA) who do not permit girls to serve anymore.

That is true, but even in diocese that do, there will often be several parishes that do not.

Or, in some cases, Associate pastors who do not.

My parish is one of 3 in the Archdioces of Detroit that do not use girls as altar servers.

( It might also be pointed out, that the 3 parishes in our diocese that do not use altar girls also account for 1/3 of the men in our seminary. My parish has 7 men studying for the priesthood right now).

Here is a little video of a very typical Sunday Mass, to give you an idea of where all those seminarians are coming from.

cid-d48dbdc01a7e8a7d.skydrive.live.com/self.aspx/Public/Altar%20Boys%20-sm.wmv

 

[whatevergirl]

Altar serving isn’t a leadership role. It isn’t the priesthood. It is not the altar server who acts in the person of Christ, but the priest only. If it were otherwise, it would not be appropriate that unconfirmed Catholics, who have not even been fully initiated, fulfill that role.

The holy women followed Our Lord and the Apostles, and saw to their needs out of their own means. They remained at the foot of the Cross when among the men only St. John remained. Except for when the case where one is ordained to literally stand in the ritual place of Christ the Head, there should not be “Jew nor Greek, male or female, slave or free…”

At any rate, as long as we’re throwing humility into the mix: if Rome says it is permissible, it is not for the laity to say it is not permissible. We all should remember to whom the power to bind and loose has been given.

Brava:thumbsup: Great post.
While I wouldn’t have an issue with altar serving suddenly becoming exclusive to boys only–I can see it being a benefit to a boy considering the priesthood–having girls serve is not detrimental to mass. It saddens me when people think so.

 

[snhs]

Altar serving isn’t a leadership role. It isn’t the priesthood. It is not the altar server who acts in the person of Christ, but the priest only. If it were otherwise, it would not be appropriate that unconfirmed Catholics, who have not even been fully initiated, fulfill that role.

…

At any rate, as long as we’re throwing humility into the mix: if Rome says it is permissible, it is not for the laity to say it is not permissible. We all should remember to whom the power to bind and loose has been given.

Catholics do not need to be acting in persona Christi in order to have a leadership role. Altar boys have lead by example both literally and figuratively for centuries.

The facts are that the change to allowing Altar girls, albeit only if the Bishop and Priest decided to allow them, was far more of a concession to Liberal groups within the Church than anything else. They say that actions speak louder than words, neither Pope John Paul II nor Pope Benedict allow Altar girls to serve in Rome. So to conclude I quite agree that we should in all humility follow where the Pope leads, to a point where no girls serve at the Altar.

 

[Lovemyfaith]

Oh no! 20 some odd pages and this over year old thread is back again.
Every time it pops up I re-read all the posts and see the same good points brought up on both sides. I can only assume parishes that see religious vocations forming from their server program have a philosophy integrated in that program that naturally leads to those vocations. That philosophy has a lot more to do with traditional catholic teachings and values. I think it is hard to translate that philosophy into mainstream Catholics, who may for the most part be trying to fit their faith into thier lives rather than the other way around. In such a busy world, I find myself guilty of that more than I would like to admit.
I think people who do feel strongly about serving leading to priestly vocations should make themselves available to their pastor to lead the serving program. If your parish has an outstanding server program, perhaps there is a nearby parish that could use some help.
Of course, don’t be surprised if your help is met with a “thanks but that won’t work here” as most pastors try to walk the fine line of keeping the peace while keeping the faith.

 

[EasterJoy]

Brava:thumbsup: Great post.
While I wouldn’t have an issue with altar serving suddenly becoming exclusive to boys only–I can see it being a benefit to a boy considering the priesthood–having girls serve is not detrimental to mass. It saddens me when people think so.

If altar serving is limited to boys, it should be made unequivocally clear that it has NOTHING to do with girls lacking any sort of fitness for the position but rather has to do with encouraging boys into the priesthood. We don’t want to particularly encourage those males who have an inordinate desire to be thought of as better than everyone else, after all. Once encouraged, that is a tough habit to break, and entirely contrary to the lesson of the washing of the Feet…a lesson in which the Apostles were taught in no uncertain terms that “women’s work” or “servants’ work” was not beneath them!

If non-serving children are to be emblematic of the laity while those who serve are emblematic of the clergy, then let the relationship always be one of the servers putting their own needs after the needs of the children not given the privelege of serving. This idea that everyone who does something remarkable in service of the Church should be applauded and encouraged to feel proud of themselves is not going to fill the convents, the monasteries, or the seminaries, nor does it serve the spiritual well-being of the servers. Kids need to know that we serve because we are beloved of God, and not the other way around.

 

[whatevergirl]

If altar serving is limited to boys, it should be made unequivocally clear that it has NOTHING to do with girls lacking any sort of fitness for the position but rather has to do with encouraging boys into the priesthood. We don’t want to particularly encourage those males who have an inordinate desire to be thought of as better than everyone else, after all. Once encouraged, that is a tough habit to break, and entirely contrary to the lesson of the washing of the Feet…a lesson in which the Apostles were taught in no uncertain terms that “women’s work” or “servants’ work” was not beneath them!

If non-serving children are to be emblematic of the laity while those who serve are emblematic of the clergy, then let the relationship always be one of the servers putting their own needs after the needs of the children not given the privelege of serving. This idea that everyone who does something remarkable in service of the Church should be applauded and encouraged to feel proud of themselves is not going to fill the convents, the monasteries, or the seminaries, nor does it serve the spiritual well-being of the servers. Kids need to know that we serve because we are beloved of God, and not the other way around.

Um, ok. Not sure why this was directed to me, but ok.

I agree.

 

[EasterJoy]

Catholics do not need to be acting in persona Christi in order to have a leadership role. Altar boys have lead by example both literally and figuratively for centuries.

The facts are that the change to allowing Altar girls, albeit only if the Bishop and Priest decided to allow them, was far more of a concession to Liberal groups within the Church than anything else. They say that actions speak louder than words, neither Pope John Paul II nor Pope Benedict allow Altar girls to serve in Rome. So to conclude I quite agree that we should in all humility follow where the Pope leads, to a point where no girls serve at the Altar.

Those were the same centuries when the laity were largely kept off of the altar entirely. I don’t have a problem with that. I don’t have a problem with there being a recognition of the obvious fact that gender does matter, particularly under ritual circumstances. There is hardly a religion in the world that doesn’t get that. Even where “priestesses” have been used, a priest is not a priestess and a priestess is not a priest. Certainly Rome and the bishops have the perogative to discern the proper place for gender-based divisions in role for a given time and place.

I do have a problem with the idea that women, and the entire laity by extension, are second-class Christians, who are not priests because they are somehow less fit to serve God. Our Lady, Model of Christians and Queen of Heaven, shows unequivocally that this is not so. She shows what immense power obedience and submission can have.

So when there are arguments over whether or not service at the altar should be limited to boys, let us at least not slip into arguments that fly in the face of both Scriptures and Catholic theology concerning the nature of the laity and the priesthood and the role of women in the Church. As this thread demonstrates, going to those false arguments makes the argument against allowing this service to girls into an argument for why justice demands that it must be allowed.

 

[EasterJoy]

Um, ok. Not sure why this was directed to me, but ok.

I agree.

I need to be more clear when I’m responding in agreement. I forget that most replies are counter-arguments on this forum!

I only meant that if serving was going to be limited to boys, as you suggested that it rightly might, that the reasons must be made very clear. It is too easy to give scandal on this matter, and to give the impression that there are types of injustice that are part of our faith, when that is not true.

 

[EasterJoy]

I agree with all that you said. I was not trying to make it into a debate; I do not think women should be priests. I was simply trying to point out that Wise Queen’s ideas of a woman’s “place” under a man’s “place” was slightly misguided and more than a little sexist.

Yes, I agree. Not every reason given in support of restricting a role within the Church to males or females is a legitimate reason. That there are bad arguments in their favor doesn’t make the restrictions themselves illegitimate, either.

 

[marietta]

Wise Queen and Carolinagirl411:

“Your daughter can go help the poor, reach out to the neglected child on the block, pray for sinners, bring her friends to church… etc… all to serve Christ earnestly.”

Have you considered encouraging her participation in an abortion protest?

marietta