Female Genital Cutting?

[LDNCatholic]

That’s exactly why the approach needs to be something other than the “Western people imposing Truth and Justice on the rest of the World” tactic. You’re right- there’s no way traditional parents are going to let their daughters go off to “let’s end clitorectomy” classes any more than I’m going to let my daughter attend Planned Parenthood-sponsored sex education classes.

This needs to be more of a grassroots sort of effort. There needs to be a change of the culture, while still allowing the culture to express itself. I’m not even entirely sure that an outside group can do it at all.

Consider the practice of foot-binding in China. It was originally a display of conspicuous consumption, of prosperity. It was a way to say that you were so wealthy you could effectively cripple a worker. It was limited to aristocracy. Then, it slowly became a status symbol down through the social classes until you had women in the peasant class, who DID have to work, with bound feet.
It was the Communist government, and not missionaries or outside charitable organizations, that finally ended the practice. By making displays of conspicuous consumerism undesirable, the practice slowly ended.

That’s how the change has to occur here, I think. The whole mindset, that women shouldn’t be allowed to enjoy sex, that they are the property of their husbands, needs to be changed- then the practice will, perhaps die out.
Maybe they should all be given courses in Theology of the Body?

But yes, the whole practice, and how to best change it, is a complex and terrible one.

Also, I would say that because it encompasses Christian, Islamic and Animist tribes, education will be further hindered by disagreements between the religions. For instance an animist village will likely be extremely resistant to education from a Muslim or Christian, someone they see as a missionary come to destroy their way of life.

 

[Cari]

Then they could put male chastity belts on the men too… give the keys to their mom’s and later their wives. Seems a fit thing to do.

Good luck getting this one to fly in cultures that find it appropriate to sew up women’s vaginas when their husbands are going on a trip.

Maybe they could wed the chastity belt idea to the codpiece? That way, the men would be chaste, but in a manly way.

 

[LDNCatholic]

This sounds weird but I’m serious… showing them that it is actually against their religion and offer them chastity belts. At least the poor girls will not be mutilated.

Then they could put male chastity belts on the men too… give the keys to their mom’s and later their wives. Seems a fit thing to do.

Wouldn’t that stop them from going to the toilet? I mean often even the very young children are miles away from home gathering food/water etc.

 

[Cari]

Also, I would say that because it encompasses Christian, Islamic and Animist tribes, education will be further hindered by disagreements between the religions. For instance an animist village will likely be extremely resistant to education from a Muslim or Christian, someone they see as a missionary come to destroy their way of life.

I totally agree. Which is why I think that, like China, this is something that would work only from the governments of the countries in question. Start it in the cities, a sort of public service campaign, and as the youth travel to the cities for work and education, the idea will slowly spread back to the rural areas.

However, sadly enough, so many African countries have bigger fish for their governments to fry than genital mutilations…like keeping some sort of stability for more than a year.

 

[LDNCatholic]

I totally agree. Which is why I think that, like China, this is something that would work only from the governments of the countries in question. Start it in the cities, a sort of public service campaign, and as the youth travel to the cities for work and education, the idea will slowly spread back to the rural areas.

However, sadly enough, so many African countries have bigger fish for their governments to fry than genital mutilations…like keeping some sort of stability for more than a year.

That’s true, education goes hand in hand with prosperity. Also, and again this is from admitted ignorance about African affairs, but isn’t there a lot of anti government resistance movements and militias in Africa. I’ve read about a number that enforce ‘‘Christian rule’’ or a perverse form of Sha’ria.

 

[BelFarfalla]

Wouldn’t that stop them from going to the toilet? I mean often even the very young children are miles away from home gathering food/water etc.

I’ve never worn one… so I’m not totally sure

If you search the web you can find pictures of some. They do make some accommodations. But it has to be better then being mutilated and sewn up.

 

[deb1]

I. We have to consider whether there are similar practices in our culture too (e.g medically unnecessary circumcision of male infants; many say they don’t remember the pain, but just a few years ago many thought they didn’t feel the pain - so what do we really know?)

Seems like across cultures there’s this tendency to try to alter the Creator’s handiwork (as though they could ever be improved upon!) to something more to our liking. Maybe that is the mindset which needs changing - in all cultures.

?

male circumcision does not compare as it does not prevent a male from enjoying the sexual experience. it is certainly not done with the intent that it will assist males in remaining chaste. there is even some evidence-although i don’t know how reliable-that male circumcision might play a factor in preventing aids.

if you want to compare unneccesary mutilation then breast implants would be a better comparision. both operations are done with the intent to make the female more pleasing to the male.

 

[LDNCatholic]

I’ve never worn one… so I’m not totally sure

If you search the web you can find pictures of some. They do make some accommodations. But it has to be better then being mutilated and sewn up.

Its true it probably would be a less harmful practice, but I wonder just how cheaply they could be made while still retaining their effectiveness? Bearing in mind materials we in the richest countries take for granted are impossibly expensive in some of these nations crippled by poverty.

Also I would imagine that the sewing up of the genitalia, and the necessity of literally cutting them back open again to allow for sex provides undeniable evidence of the girls ‘purity’. Visible evidence that would not be evident from the use of a chastity device.

 

[seekerz]

Just to illustrate how pervasive the practice can be, there have been stories of people who decided not to have their daughter ‘cut’ after moving to the West and those kids were actually kidnapped by other family members and forced to undergo the ritual. Apparently it’s a rite of passage that affirms womanhood and not only is a girl who does not undergo ‘cutting’ considered dishonored, but so is her family!

 

[Sabda]

Actually, that’s only part of it.

Clitorectomies, or female circumcision, or genital mutilation (whichever term you prefer) is a practice that has its roots in African paganism. It was to prevent a woman from having premarital relations, and also to ensure that she did not experience pleasure during sex.
It has now, in some African countries, been wedded to Islamic practices, though from what I’ve read, the Koran doesn’t anywhere prohibit female enjoyment of sex (in fact, I dimly recall a story about Muhammed rushing out of his tent in such a hurry he forgot his sandals because a woman came to him complaining that her husband wasn’t fufilling his marital duties, and Muhammed went to remedy the situation).

Cheers,
Cari

That’s interesting because I have always heard that it was an Muslim custom. In fact I have heard even some Muslims say it is a part of Islam. Hmmmm

I don’t suppose you have any more information on this?

 

[BelFarfalla]

Its true it probably would be a less harmful practice, but I wonder just how cheaply they could be made while still retaining their effectiveness? Bearing in mind materials we in the richest countries take for granted are impossibly expensive in some of these nations crippled by poverty…

Also I would imagine that the sewing up of the genitalia, and the necessity of literally cutting them back open again to allow for sex provides undeniable evidence of the girls ‘purity’. Visible evidence that would not be evident from the use of a chastity device.

I’ve seen photos of leather ones and metal ones. South africa has a ;rape trap’ which goes inside. It will cut up the member of any male stupid enough to try. It can only be removed by a physician or trained individual…

The device, designed for a woman to insert, attaches itself to a rapist and has to be surgically removed. It costs less then a dollar.
news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/4080162.stm
smh.com.au/news/world/controversy-in-south-africa-over-device-to-snare-rapists/2005/09/01/1125302683893.html

 

[LDNCatholic]

I’ve seen photos of leather ones and metal ones. South africa has a ;rape trap’ which goes inside. It will cut up the member of any male stupid enough to try. It can only be removed by a physician or trained individual…

The device, designed for a woman to insert, attaches itself to a rapist and has to be surgically removed. It costs less then a dollar.
news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/4080162.stm
smh.com.au/news/world/controversy-in-south-africa-over-device-to-snare-rapists/2005/09/01/1125302683893.html

But if the woman can remove it and reinsert it, it wouldn’t provide proof that she was a virgin, also how long do they last? bearing in mind this process is often forced on very young girls.

Also, as pointed out in the second link, in the case of rape, particularly group rape, the initial pain would be overcome by rage and the girl would probably be killed. Or perhaps even severely punished when her people discover the device missing. They may not believe her story of rape.

 

[deb1]

But if the woman can remove it and reinsert it, it wouldn’t provide proof that she was a virgin, also how long do they last? bearing in mind this process is often forced on very young girls.

i don’t know about this device. if it broke, perhaps it could harm the woman.

 

[LDNCatholic]

i don’t know about this device. if it broke, perhaps it could harm the woman.

A valid point, although the company makes it claim they can’t hurt the woman I wonder it’s effects of her genital organ if this thing is used long term, and, as you pointed out there is a potential hazard if it breaks, bearing in mind that these people are often those furthest away from proper medical care.

 

[seekerz]

Doesn’t the use of any device or ‘cutting’ procedure fly in the face of free will? If chastity has to be imposed by force or pain, maybe it isn’t chastity after all. Can’t say I haven’t known many a parent who didn’t wish they could use some chastity device on their teenagers!

The reality is that no virtue can be considered as such if it isn’t freely attained by the exercise of self-control. Still I suppose just about anything is better than having one’s genitals mutilated; kind of like the lesser of two evils…

 

[LDNCatholic]

Doesn’t the use of any device or ‘cutting’ procedure fly in the face of free will? If chastity has to be imposed by force or pain, maybe it isn’t chastity after all. Can’t say I haven’t known many a parent who didn’t wish they could use some chastity device on their teenagers!

The reality is that no virtue can be considered as such if it isn’t freely attained by the exercise of self-control. Still I suppose just about anything is better than having one’s genitals mutilated; kind of like the lesser of two evils…

Precisely, if they have to have their free will taken away at all I would prefer it for their sake that it be a painless process.

 

[JudieK]

One has to wonder if people who feel the need to do this to their women… have they no trust at all in a person’s ability to be faithful? And do the men have no compassion at all for their wives and daughter’s and the pain and problems this causes them? Imagine the urinary tract infections and vaginal infections from improper cleaning and drainage, not to mention the sheer hell of having intercourse after just being sliced open. How can you love a man that would take a knife to your body that way?

Anyway… CARE says they earn the villager’s trust by building water and irrigation systems, building primary schools, health clinics, and agricultural programs. Then they try to start the discussion and educate the women about this. They claim success in some of the staunches tribes.

 

[LDNCatholic]

One has to wonder if people who feel the need to do this to their women… have they no trust at all in a person’s ability to be faithful? And do the men have no compassion at all for their wives and daughter’s and the pain and problems this causes them? Imagine the urinary tract infections and vaginal infections from improper cleaning and drainage, not to mention the sheer hell of having intercourse after just being sliced open. How can you love a man that would take a knife to your body that way?

Anyway… CARE says they earn the villager’s trust by building water and irrigation systems, building primary schools, health clinics, and agricultural programs. Then they try to start the discussion and educate the women about this. They claim success in some of the staunches tribes.

Love often doesn’t come into it. I’m sorry if it seems disrespectful to their culture, but more often than not, the people of these tribes practice polygamy. In any culture where a man is allowed to have more than one wife often the wives, excepting perhaps a chosen favourite, become little more than sex objects and baby producing servants. CARE seems to have found an excellent way to prove that they mean these people no harm while at the same time improving conditions for all involved.

Personally I doubt these men would like the idea of the anti rape items, it would cause their genitalia pain, whereas they prefer to inflict it on their women.

 

[deb1]

Love often doesn’t come into it. I’m sorry if it seems disrespectful to their culture, but more often than not, the people of these tribes practice polygamy. In any culture where a man is allowed to have more than one wife often the wives, excepting perhaps a chosen favourite, become little more than sex objects and baby producing servants. CARE seems to have found an excellent way to prove that they mean these people no harm while at the same time improving conditions for all involved.

Personally I doubt these men would like the idea of the anti rape items, it would cause their genitalia pain, whereas they prefer to inflict it on their women.

we can’t just blame the men for this problem. the women too, are often involved in making certain that their daughters have this done. its the culture that is at fault.

 

[LDNCatholic]

we can’t just blame the men for this problem. the women too, are often involved in making certain that their daughters have this done. its the culture that is at fault.

Oh I’m not just blaming the men, but I was responding to Judie questioning how a loving husband could accept that happening to his wife. It pains me when I think of (hopefully) otherwise loving parents making this decision. What pains me even more is that they often do it misguidedly believing they are pleasing God.