Just another of 100’s of unrelated coincidences on the decline and fall of the…If women serving on the altar are not contributing to a decline in priestly vocations then why is it that when they don’t (ex: Eastern Orthodox, TLM, parishes where priest won’t allow it, etc.) there are more vocations to the priesthood?
Spoil sport!I don’t know if this has been commented on so I will do so.
There is no such thing as a female lector. That is an oxymoron.
Lector is a minister in the Church and must be a male.
From the Code of Canon Law:
Can. 230 §1 Lay men whose age and talents meet the requirements prescribed by decree of the Episcopal Conference, can be given the stable ministry of lector and of acolyte, through the prescribed liturgical rite. This conferral of ministry does not, however, give them a right to sustenance or remuneration from the Church.
Now, when a lector is not present a lay person can act as reader, but they are not really lectors.
now, are these groups you are referring to in the U.S.? if so, then one thing I can almost assume is that they are in the minority and unless you’ve got some stats to show me, I’m not changing my stand. Now, if you’re referring to the countries OTHER than the U.S., well, women just aren’t lectors, they aren’t allowed to ber much more than mothers…I don’t want women to take over the roles men have but I will provide support where men have failed to come forward…Note: there are always more women in the pews than men…Now let me ask you this…you aren’t saying that women serving on the altar are doing so because their men are just too weak to lead their famiies are you??Yet all the groups that I mentioned (Orthodox, TLM folks, etc.) all live in the very same culture and are experiencing the same other factors as the rest of the Catholic church in the US. Yet they have more vocations to the priesthood. There is a reason for this. If you think that women serving on the altar does not negatively impact vocations then perhaps you could offer an explanation for why these other groups (that don’t allow women on the altar) have more vocations.
Yes, in the US.now, are these groups you are referring to in the U.S.?
Before women served on the altar there were plenty of men going to mass and no lack of them to lector. In the groups I mentioned there is no lack of men wanting to come forward… there are plenty of male readers. I’m saying that where there is feminization then there is less male participation and attendance. The groups I mentioned are well known to have more men attending and participating than Novus Ordo parishes. I have seen others post that have noticed that a higher number of men attend TLM for example.I will provide support where men have failed to come forward…Note: there are always more women in the pews than men…
I didn’t give a reason for why women serve on the altar. I assume they do so because they want to. Certainly they don’t do it because men won’t – because a local priest made the rule that only men could read and there are always men willing to do it. Where women get involved in liturgical things then men lose interest. Again, male attendance and participation at the groups I mentioned is higher than at a Novus Ordo parish. You will want some sort of official statistics which I cannot give. I can only say that I have asked the office of the 2nd largest Orthodox group in this country: their seminaries have record enrollments. I can point out that it is the experience and observation of others that more men attend TLM than at Novus Ordo parishes for example. But, no, I have no official statistics to offer.Now let me ask you this…you aren’t saying that women serving on the altar are doing so because their men are just too weak to lead their famiies are you??
And the bishops want women to read at mass so they conveniently don’t appoint lectors.I don’t know if this has been commented on so I will do so.
There is no such thing as a female lector. That is an oxymoron.
Lector is a minister in the Church and must be a male.
From the Code of Canon Law:
Can. 230 §1 Lay men whose age and talents meet the requirements prescribed by decree of the Episcopal Conference, can be given the stable ministry of lector and of acolyte, through the prescribed liturgical rite. This conferral of ministry does not, however, give them a right to sustenance or remuneration from the Church.
Now, when a lector is not present a lay person can act as reader, but they are not really lectors.
I have a question maybe you can answer…in the U.S. there is more of an increase in the priesthood from men of other countries…do you think our materialistic culture here might be responsible for the decline? Too much temptation from electronic gadgets; too much of an emphasis on carrying forward the family name; too much priority given to sports and not CCD??Yes, in the US.
Before women served on the altar there were plenty of men going to mass and no lack of them to lector. In the groups I mentioned there is no lack of men wanting to come forward… there are plenty of male readers. I’m saying that where there is feminization then there is less male participation and attendance. The groups I mentioned are well known to have more men attending and participating than Novus Ordo parishes. I have seen others post that have noticed that a higher number of men attend TLM for example.
I didn’t give a reason for why women serve on the altar. I assume they do so because they want to. Certainly they don’t do it because men won’t – because a local priest made the rule that only men could read and there are always men willing to do it. Where women get involved in liturgical things then men lose interest. Again, male attendance and participation at the groups I mentioned is higher than at a Novus Ordo parish. You will want some sort of official statistics which I cannot give. I can only say that I have asked the office of the 2nd largest Orthodox group in this country: their seminaries have record enrollments. I can point out that it is the experience and observation of others that more men attend TLM than at Novus Ordo parishes for example. But, no, I have no official statistics to offer.
Sure those things are probably a factor. I never said feminization in the Church is the only factor - but it is a factor.I have a question maybe you can answer…in the U.S. there is more of an increase in the priesthood from men of other countries…do you think our materialistic culture here might be responsible for the decline? Too much temptation from electronic gadgets; too much of an emphasis on carrying forward the family name; too much priority given to sports and not CCD??
Or maybe it’s the other way around? Maybe we have been driven into more materialistic culture because our liturgy has become too banal since the wreckovators and feminists started messing with it? It seems that people used to take the liturgy a little more seriously; in fact, MUCH more seriously. Mass was the center of Sundays; not any more.I have a question maybe you can answer…in the U.S. there is more of an increase in the priesthood from men of other countries…do you think our materialistic culture here might be responsible for the decline? Too much temptation from electronic gadgets; too much of an emphasis on carrying forward the family name; too much priority given to sports and not CCD??
I’'m still trying to sort out your comment in my mind…for instance are you saying that there are such and such numbers of individual parishes or entire dioceses? are these located near you? is it a particular region in the U.S. ? are those who assist at these masses immigrants or natives? But yes, one thing I do know is that is all starts with a strong man of the cloth…if he is progressive in nature like many are here in my diocese, then it will only lead to futher progression right?Sure those things are probably a factor. I never said feminization in the Church is the only factor - but it is a factor.
I made this point earlier which you did not comment on: The communities / groups that I mentioned also live in this country and are also exposed to the above things. Yet they have better male attendance at mass and more vocations than the Novus Ordo where women serve on the altar.
I’m saying this is generally true all over the US. No, the people who assist at these masses are (for the most part) not immigrants.for instance are you saying that there are such and such numbers of individual parishes or entire dioceses? are these located near you? is it a particular region in the U.S. ? are those who assist at these masses immigrants or natives?
excellent pointsI have a question maybe you can answer…in the U.S. there is more of an increase in the priesthood from men of other countries…do you think our materialistic culture here might be responsible for the decline? Too much temptation from electronic gadgets; too much of an emphasis on carrying forward the family name; too much priority given to sports and not CCD??