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Catholic2003
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Only Popes and ecumenical councils can define dogma, not prefects of the CDF. So unless you are talking about an ex cathedra statement of Pope Benedict XVI, it is you who are mistaken.
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MilesJesu
Guest
In terms of being “defined,” when Pope John Paul II said:
"Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, a matter which pertains to the Church’s divine constitution itself, in virtue of my ministry of confirming the brethren (cf. Lk 22:32) I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church’s faithful" OS, no. 4].
Does this not define the issue? Ratzinger as the Prefect for the CDF, when asked via a dubium reaffirmed this declaration in the affirmative as being a dogmatically defined statement.
Here is a link to a Diocese Q&A on the subject which provides a pretty good answer.
diocs.org/Q&A/answers.cfm?question=26womenpriests
Peace,
MilesJesu
"Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, a matter which pertains to the Church’s divine constitution itself, in virtue of my ministry of confirming the brethren (cf. Lk 22:32) I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church’s faithful" OS, no. 4].
Does this not define the issue? Ratzinger as the Prefect for the CDF, when asked via a dubium reaffirmed this declaration in the affirmative as being a dogmatically defined statement.
Here is a link to a Diocese Q&A on the subject which provides a pretty good answer.
diocs.org/Q&A/answers.cfm?question=26womenpriests
Peace,
MilesJesu
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Racer_X
Guest
Here is probably the best presentation of the case that it has NOT been super-duper-infallibly defined.
Infallible?Is Ordinatio Sacerdotalis
A Petition to the Holy Father for Women Priests
The author of this blog–whose name escapes me at the moment–is the most reasonable and faithful (that is, a genuine intention to be faithful) “progressive” Catholic I have encountered. His daily blog is at liberalcatholicnews.blogspot.com
This may be as good as it gets. If you can see his position for the bunk it is, its all downhill from there.
Infallible?Is Ordinatio Sacerdotalis
A Petition to the Holy Father for Women Priests
The author of this blog–whose name escapes me at the moment–is the most reasonable and faithful (that is, a genuine intention to be faithful) “progressive” Catholic I have encountered. His daily blog is at liberalcatholicnews.blogspot.com
This may be as good as it gets. If you can see his position for the bunk it is, its all downhill from there.
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Ignatius
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Racer X:
How does the following from Pope John Paul II of blessed memory not define it?
Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, a matter which pertains to the Church’s divine constitution itself, in virtue of my ministry of confirming the brethren (cf. Lk 22:32) I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church’s faithful" OS, no. 4].
Well first, The Liberal Catholic sect is not part of the Holy Catholic Church in communion with the Pope.
How does the following from Pope John Paul II of blessed memory not define it?
Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, a matter which pertains to the Church’s divine constitution itself, in virtue of my ministry of confirming the brethren (cf. Lk 22:32) I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church’s faithful" OS, no. 4].
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Roman_Army
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Apostolic Tradition is infallible. A male only priesthood and male only deacon is part of the Apostolic Tradition. It is also talked about in the Bible by St. Paul that women should not have authority in the Church.
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Catholic2003
Guest
There are three ways a doctrine can be infallible: (1) papal infallibility (i.e., ex cathedra); (2) conciliar infallibility (of an ecumenical council); and (3) infallibility of the ordinary and universal magisterium.
For the first two ways, there is a definite act that made the doctrine infallible, and additionally there is a precisely worded statement (i.e., an infallible definition) of the doctrine, now a dogma. For the last way, there is no specific act that made the doctrine infallible, but instead it is the agreement of the universal magisterium of all the bishops in communion with the Pope. As a result, there is no single, infallible statement that defines the doctrine, just a general consensus of the entire magisterium. Thus, doctrines which are infallible by the ordinary and universal magisterium are called non-defined (or undefined) dogma, and are given the designation of de fide instead of de fide definita in theological works such as Ott.
Thus, saying that Ordinatio Sacerdotalis infallibly defined that women cannot be priests is the same thing as saying that Ordinatio Sacerdotalis is ex cathedra.
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Isidore_AK
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Would this not count as an infallible ‘Ex Cathedra’ statement by John Paul the Great? Sounds like one to me…
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Catholic2003
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Then Cardinal Ratzinger (prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith) and Archbishop Bertone (secretary of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith) both said that it was not ex cathedra, but infallible via the ordinary and universal magisterium.
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MilesJesu
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To avoid splitting hairs, would you, Catholic2003 say that it is an infallible teaching of the Church that women cannot be ordained as priests?
Peace,
MilesJesu
Peace,
MilesJesu
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BibleReader
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In my opinion, inspired Scripture prohibits ordination of women, when Paul says that women may not talk in the assembly of believers.
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Catholic2003
Guest
It’s definitely an infallible teaching. I apologize if I didn’t make that completely clear.
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Catholic2003
Guest
I’m just curious how you reconcile this with the Church allowing women to proclaim the readings from Sacred Scripture and to announce the intentions for the Prayer of the Faithful in Mass, as well as allowing women to give the reflection on the Scripture readings in a Communion Service.
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BibleReader
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The first role – lector at Mass – is easy to justify. The true “speaker” is the Scriptural author.
Open-ended reflections rendered by a woman carrying the Eucharist to the sick are a little more difficult to square with Scripture. I think that so long as the setting and tone are conversational, there is no intrusion into the authority invested by Orders.
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Catholic2003
Guest
Thanks for the answers.
Just to be clear, by “Communion Service,” I meant a Sunday Celebration in the Absence of a Priest, where pre-consecrated hosts are distributed after a Liturgy of the Word, taking place in the Church itself with a normal (non-sick) congregation.
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BibleReader
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In my opinion, non-programmed reflections on Scripture by a woman at a public service in a Catholic Church squarely violate Scripture. Paul really could not be clearer. One priest friend told me once that Paul’s Greek terminology was the same used in the Greco-Roman Empire when the speaker said, “Shut up!” In other words, he contended that Paul taught, “Women shall ‘shut-up’ in the assembly of believers!”
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Ahimsa
Guest
Would it be difficult to make it ex cathedra?
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stanley123
Guest
Roman_Army said:
DEFINED. It is defined DOGMA on the same level as the Immaculate Conception. Ratzinger DEFINED it.
But, just so you know, this was re-affirmed by the Church with the following papal statement:
“I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church’s faithful” (Ordinatio Sacerdotalis 4).
Since it is an infallibly defined teaching that women cannot be priests, could you kindly explain why the Catholic authorities in charge of a Catholic diocesan newspaper are allowing editorials supporting the ordination of women as priests?
See the June 23, 2005 edition of the Saint Cloud Visitor, the Catholic newspaper of the Diocese of St. Cloud, MN.:
“The church should begin seriously discussing the possibility of ordaining women as priests.”
See:
stcdio.org/Visitor/newassets/new_editorial.htm
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Catholic2003
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Any Pope could easily promulgate an ex cathedra proclamation about this or any other issue. It’s just that for Ordinatio Sacerdotalis, Pope John Paul II made a conscious, deliberate decision not to be ex cathedra.
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InnocentIII
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I do not know the situation in the US but here in Ozland the reflections at the Communion Service must be read from an authorised document. The giving of reflections prepared by the -non-ordained leader of the service is strictly forbidden.
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MilesJesu
Guest
Why would the Pope need to make an “ex Cathedra” proclamation of a doctrine that has already been defined by the ordinary Magesterium, proclaimed unequivocally by the Pope, and supported by the CDF?
I think the article from MN provides a clue:
"Why, then, should women who discern a call from God to the priesthood be allowed to answer it?"
If the Church has defined infallibly that she does not have the power to ordain women, how can it be cavalierly assert that God is calling women? Perhaps more time should be spent discerning tha actual calling and to what type of service.
"It is simply a matter of making our church the best church it can be."
This is a scary one. It seems to totally misunderstand the nature of the Church. The Church is the Body of Christ! How in the world can we “make it better” by changing the way God has designed it? Additionally, although it is our Church because we belong to it, we did not found the Church, Jesus did. Jesus is the Head of the Church. As the GIRM states in paragraph 24:
“Nevertheless, the priest must remember that he is the servant of the Sacred Liturgy and that he himself is not permitted, on his own initiative, to add, to remove, or to change anything in the celebration of Mass.”
cont…
I think the article from MN provides a clue:
"Why, then, should women who discern a call from God to the priesthood be allowed to answer it?"
If the Church has defined infallibly that she does not have the power to ordain women, how can it be cavalierly assert that God is calling women? Perhaps more time should be spent discerning tha actual calling and to what type of service.
"It is simply a matter of making our church the best church it can be."
This is a scary one. It seems to totally misunderstand the nature of the Church. The Church is the Body of Christ! How in the world can we “make it better” by changing the way God has designed it? Additionally, although it is our Church because we belong to it, we did not found the Church, Jesus did. Jesus is the Head of the Church. As the GIRM states in paragraph 24:
“Nevertheless, the priest must remember that he is the servant of the Sacred Liturgy and that he himself is not permitted, on his own initiative, to add, to remove, or to change anything in the celebration of Mass.”
cont…
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