Female priests

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In argument before the Supreme Court on an anti-discrimination case, the solicitor general–representing the Obama administration–said that the government would uphold the right of the …

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That is in accord with seperation of church and state. If it becomes a court issue, regardless of outcome, than state will have to abide by church laws in return and hypocricy will be oozing in floods and drown all that oppose God.
 
Here is a interview with a Harvard graduate who became a nun thesacredpage.com/2010/08/harvards-valedictorian-to-become.html

This is her response to a question asked about the Church being anti woman. It is the best short complete answer I have heard.
She was not just a graduate but valedictorian.

She is an amazing woman. Her sarcastic answer to the first question tells you all you need to know about her.

All of us are richer because of her prayers.

-Tim-
 
👍

To quote George Orwell in Animal Farm:* “All pigs are equal, but some pigs are more equal than others.”*

(note: I’m not comparing anyone to a pig)
To quote from a man who was an open socialist in a discussion of “equal rights” is comical. Given the nature of a socialist is a bridge to communism, complete totalitarianism (even though Animal Farm was against that, the man was an idiot not to see the connection between socialism and communism), but let alone it is the avocation of forcibly eliminating rights of some and push the rights of other of whom do not deserve the same authority as others.

It’s so funny to see those rant and rave about the Church has stated no women priests and yet to forget we acknowledge the most perfect human, and this woman holds the highest title above all humans, that has ever lived was a woman, not to forget we uphold women doctors of the Church. At the same time, we are attacked the most for doing so. Simply cannot please everyone :nope:
 
Sounds like a good argument to me!
Do YOU feel she makes valid points?
No, L doesn’t think the woman makes valid points, since she disagrees with Church teaching (i.e. she read a Catholic book and somehow twisted the words to say something contradictory to what the book means; kind of suspicious); he was just asking for the best way to refute her.
But they wouldn’t be being “the same”.
One would be a male priest and one would be a female priest.
Equal, but different!
This is exactly the point, women cannot fill the office of priesthood because it is a man’s position. They wouldn’t be “the same.” A female priest is not a male priest; a female priest is an abomination.
Could it not be possible that someone over 1500 years ago mis-translated or mis-perceived a few sentences in the bible when the rulebook was being decided upon…thereby throwing out an entire gender from Mass?
No. The early Church didn’t even have a bible for a quite a while so the “rulebook” didn’t even come from there. They knew what they were about. We can be certain that there have never been women priests (who weren’t also heretics) anywhere in the Church’s history. It has never been valid to ordain a woman. Plus, women have never been thrown out from Mass, don’t be ridiculous. Please say what you mean.
Do we listen to this one?:

“Women should be silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak, but should be submissive, as the law also says.” (1 Corinthians 14:34)
Based on Paul’s other letters and the context, he meant that they shouldn’t teach in an official capacity of a pastor or homilist while in church. He doesn’t prohibit women teaching absolutely. So, yes, we do listen to this one.
“If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched.”
(Mark 9:43)

It is called a hyperbole. It is used here in a pedagogical manner to emphasize the necessity of cutting all sin from one’s life, such as losing even family if they are keeping you from following Christ, taking extreme precautions (not literally maiming, that would be morally wrong) to avoid occasions of grave sin, etc. We follow this one, also.
I’m going to dig further on the origins of this rule and report back…
You will probably not like what you find if you dig deeper, since the origins of only men being priests goes back to the beginning. It is very saddening to see you bearing such suspicion towards the Church, when we are sincerely defending the priesthood not out of arrogance and hatred but out of love. Please consider that an all-male priesthood isn’t a sign of iniquity, but a fact of the life of the Body of Christ.
 
Has someone here posted the quotes from Jesus that say women cannot be priests? Or the quotes that inspired that rule? I’ve been looking in the bible, but cannot find…not sure exactly where to look…would be most appreciated of someone will post?
1 Corinthians 14: 34 thru 35

34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak ; but they are commanded to be under obedience , as also saith the law.

35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
 
Is the decision based on those two sentences?
(This is Paul writing a letter to someone, right?)

And who, specifically, interpreted this to mean women should not be priests and made it the rule?

Because when I read them, it just sounds like he is telling a bunch of chattering women to keep the noise down…
I imagine those are the verse’s they are speaking of, I can’t say though. As far as determining if women can become catholic priest’s, a serving catholic will have to answer that one for you.

May God bless.
 
But if women are so perfect and high in title and doctors of the church…it stands to reason that…we’d be great priests!
How do you draw that conclusion? Not being confrontational, but I’ve never heard any good argumentative points or a good thesis for this belief, can you provide a link to a good website or an argument of your own?

Answer that if you want but if I may, I want to gauge you in your belief in Sacred Scripture. Do you believe in the Real Presence? If not, then why are you debating for women priests in the Catholic Church (are you even a Catholic)? If you do acknowledge in the Real Presence, your letting your opinions stop you from taking Holy Communion.
 
I am sad, it’s true…I’m sad about this situation.
But I’m not suspicious. I just haven’t read anything yet that makes logical sense to me…and I’m worried a mistake has been made because of misinterpretation or mistranslation or wrong context or missing gospels/books, etc, etc…and I’m worried that thousands of women whom God may have meant and wanted to be priests and have been called to God for the last 2,000 years have been denied because of a human error :crying:

Mary Magdalene…we consider her a disciple of Jesus, right?
I keep seeing her referred to a as “the apostle of the apostles” in articles I am reading ad that she preached. And she stayed with Jeshua at the cross when all the other male “apostles” fled. After Jesus died, she continued preaching in Italy and Rome.
Even Paul says of her “Greet Mary, who worked very hard for you…”

And after she was so loyal and faithful to Jeshua…what happens?
A pope 600 hundred years later declares her a prostitute with no facts to back this up. So this most loyal servant of Jesus was called a prostitute since around 600 AD until the Vatican *corrected * this unfortunate error in in 1969.

So what I’m saying is…there is such a thing as human error and misunderstanding and misinterpretation. Even by a pope.

And assuming the church made the rule about no-female priests…and assuming it was based on those few sentences posted above that are pretty ambiguous…and since there are many women out there who feel a strong, passionate calling to be priests in the church…it would make sense that the church would think about it and consider it.

I do wish we had a time machine.
Because I would bet that if we zoomed ahead about 50-100 years into the future, you’d see fabulous female priests delivering rousing sermons at the pulpit!
And everyone would look back at today and the all-male priesthood and wonder…why were their eyes so closed!

But, I think…if people are getting all uppity and upset about female alter servers today…it’s gonna be a looooooooong haul.
DaddyGirl, what role do you think the priesthood serves?
 
Since Mary M is the only disciple who stayed with him at the end when he died on the cross (right?)…and witnessed his sacrifice, and then, witnessed his rising, both firsthand…two important moments that involved his sacrifice that none of the other Apostles witnessed…makes good sense that someone like her would be able to preach and offer the Sacrifice of the Mass. And she did preach after he died, right?
This is what I have read…
John 19: 25 but standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother and his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. 26When Jesus saw his mother and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to his mother, “Woman, behold, your son!” 27Then he said to the disciple, “Behold, your mother!” And from that hour the disciple took her to his own home.
Mary Magdeline was not the only one there.

I was trying to stay off this thread… 🤷

Years ago I used to be an ardent feminist. I grew out of it. From my perspective and experience, the essence of feminism is pride. It’s all about me, what I want, to the exclusion of all else. Essentially the attitude (and mine at the time 😊 ) is that even God Himself (although we called God her) can’t tell ME what to do. I am the center of all things.
This, to me, seems to be the attitude of women “priests.” I believe I am called, and it does not matter one whit what the Magesterium teaches, and what God tells us. I want what I want and I will get what I want, no matter what anyone tells me.
 
It’s funny that there is actually a debate about this. This is a non-issue: the Church has spoken. We can talk until we are blue in the face, but we don’t change God’s will.

The Church has always placed women very prominently and recognized the contributions by them. But the fact is that gender roles are different, and that will never change. The way the Apostles fled Christ in the end, while the two women stood by his side, speaks volumes about the contributions women have and will make to the Church. They just can’t be ordained. Period.

And don’t fall into the Protestant trap of trying to find every answer in the Bible. So much of our faith comes from sacred Tradition, handed down for 2000 years. That is no less valid.
 
Yes…I was trying to say…of all the 12 male disciples, none of them were there. They all “fled”, according to Matthew. :
If you read the passage from John I provided, John (the disciple Jesus loved) was there also.
 
If you read the passage from John I provided, John (the disciple Jesus loved) was there also.
Yes, 1 male disciple stayed. Such boldness and Love for God with those that boldly approached the cross. Also, it is written that the sheep would scatter. All in accordance with God.

May God bless.
 
👍 Daddygirl, I appreciate your arguments and am so with you man. Pardoning the ex-feminist above, it isn’t about what I want or don’t want or in disregard to the teaching of the magisterium, or about me, me, me.

How can so many people be so narrow minded? If I disagree with my church and the injustices that have been promulgated in her name, doesn’t mean I’m not Roman Catholic. The fact of the matter, is that I am a Christian who believes that Jesus Christ died for my sins, rose from the dead and has offered me the gift of eternal life. That’s the core belief of our church, in fact the only reason it exists.

How can we ever grow up spiritually as the body of Christ, the church as Christians individually if we don’t ask questions of ourselves, the church and what we believe. Thomas had doubts, as did all of the apostles. They constantly asked questions of Jesus. So much of what our church teaches is very powerful and does have influence in the world. The priests role is not purely sacramental. They are also called to inspire us to evangelize by spreading the Good News.

I am not an automaton, or a machine that spits out only the letter of the law. Jesus berated the leadership of the Jewish faith because they were so tied to the letter of the law and not the spirit. The law, the rules, the pronouncements of the church leadership all the way through history have been called into question, not just be me, but by everyone who believes fervently in Christ without the blinders of zealots who use force, either physically or verbally to subjugate people or to justify their stance for an existing injustice or inequality. A oft sited example was the churches stance on the existence of slavery. We look at that now, and see the political uses of slavery to maintain the power structures of the state and it’s polity then. We still struggle with the aspect of slavery as it has become expressed in racism which we now apply to not only African-Americans but all the other non-white skinned peoples of the U.S.

Don’t you see the injunction or ‘end of all argument’ is a chimera. The argument and questions and desire for women’s ordination will always exist as long as the inequality and injustice represented by the prohibition of the ordination of women to the priesthood exists. To say that the church has no authority to change this is absurd, as Jesus clearly gave the church the authority to do so. “Your name is Peter, and on you my rock, I will build my church.?” (Sorry for the paraphrase, but you get my meaning.)

Our church has changed many things over time because of the questions and challenges we raise when we are blessed with the gift of the Holy Spirit to guide us. Or to sometimes sit in silence and listen. Or as Bernadette Farrell so succinctly states it, “To raise up my voice with no power or choice, God has chosen me, chosen me.” There is no valid reason for saying that no woman has ever been called to the priesthood. I’ve known several, many of whom left the Roman Catholic Church to pursue that call, they were inspired women all and do a great job in their calling as God surely intended them to be blessed so.

I’m not less Catholic than you are because I disagree. I’ve thought and prayed and wrangled and wrestled these ideas through. As I receive more information that I am receptive and ready to hear and that makes sense spiritually, my perspective may change, but in this, I don’t think so. I have yet to hear “truth” in the arguments offered for the validity for this policy or “infallible belief.” Human beings are not infallible, it’s just not in our nature as human beings. I even have doubts of my own arguments in this matter, but that’s healthy thinking to me. There are few things I am sure of, but I feel like this is one of them. Blessings and thanks to all of you who have expressed your thoughts and feelings on this subject.:love:
 
Seems to me that this discussion is missing two important facts:
  1. women were in many ways more powerful witnesses to the messianic role of Jesus Christ than were his male apostles. In particular, Mary M. was with Jesus at the cross and the first to witness and proclaim his resurrection. St. Paul extols the support and help he has received from specific women.
  2. women played an important and formal role in the celebration of the sacraments in the early church. Specifically, they offered their homes “house churches” for the liturgy. Also, their is very strong evidence in Scripture that they were formally designated as deacons in some regions.
While it may be true that woman should not officiate at the Mass, it is difficult to defend the male dominated decision making of the Church in light of the Gospel.
 
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Many of the arguments Catholics and conservatives put forward on the issue of women’s ordination are insufficient. The most common argument offered against the practice is that Jesus never chose women. That is indeed true, and the argument is valid; however, it isn’t a particularly strong one. It is an argument that seems to be incomplete, as if there were some other critical factors which need to be explained.
First of all, it is important for everyone to understand that the feminist argument is predicated on the notion of human dignity and equality being based on utility and function. This underlying assumption is rarely discussed when the issue of women’s ordination and equality is raised. However, it is critical to appreciate and acknowledge this point so the debate can advance intelligently. Too often in these types of debates, obvious assumptions and presuppositions are not dealt with upfront which invariably means both sides waste too much time and effort talking past one another.
For the feminist, dignity and equality depends on allowing women to do the same things#/# as men. And only in doing the same things – or at least having the capability to do so – can the two genders be equal in dignity. To deny a women the same function, under this rubric, would necessarily mean denying them equality and dignity. The connection is indeed logical, but the foundation itself is erroneous.
Contrary to this, the Christian worldview does not attach dignity and equality with function or utility. A human person is not any less dignified or equal to another person based on what they can or cannot do. Performing a specific function does not make anyone more worthy or dignified than someone who cannot perform that function. That is why the Church values all human life equally, independent of the supposed value that society attaches to a particular function or “quality of life” assessment. The Church values all human life equally, including the disabled or those bedridden with a serious sickness.

The rise of euthanasia and related “quality of life” ethic is also predicated on this feminist principle. One person decides that the utility and function of the disabled person does not meet the “quality of life” standard, and then proceeds to pull the plug or dehydrate the person to death. Instead of treating the individual with dignity and respect because of the intrinsic dignity bestowed by God, the arbiters of “equality”, through their dark lenses of utility and function, objectify the human person for their own base aspirations. Usually, this means unburdening themselves with the suffering of another human being.

In light of these different foundations, therefore, it is important to point out to our opponents that their very conception of equality is fundamentally different than our own. There is a false assumption that both sides view equality in the same way. As we can see, however, that is not a valid assumption at all. It is no surprise, therefore, to find that there is a divergence of opinion on the issue of women’s ordination. Feminists believe they don’t have equality in the Church because they are denied a function, but this is a distortion of what true equality is. Catholics say women already have equality because of their intrinsic dignity as human persons. Women complement men but are not the same as them. 👍👍👍

continued…
 
But even if this were true and there was no more contention regarding women’s ordination, it still begs the question as to why only men can be priests. First, it is important for our opponents to understand that the liturgical act in the Mass is an act of marriage. That is why Jesus is called the bridegroom and the Church is considered His Bride. In fact, the Scriptures are replete with this imagery:

The priest stands in the person of Christ, “persona Christi”. It is not the priest himself who acts principally, but the Person of Christ HIMSELF who acts through the performance of the movements, gestures, and pronouncements of the priest during the Mass. And since Christ was male, the priest in whom Christ acts, must also be male in order to reflect the Incarnation in its fullness. The Incarnation, which was realized through a woman and a man, was not only a redemption of men and women, but also a redemption (and reconciliation) between men and women. At the altar, therefore, the male priest represents this incarnational reality of Jesus Christ within the womb of the sanctuary.

When the bread and wine are consecrated by the priest, the priest in persona Christi then comes down from the altar and presents the body and bloody of Christ to His betrothed, the people of God. It is there that this one flesh union between the divine bridegroom, Jesus Christ, through the instrument of the priest, and His Bride, the Church, is consummated. This supernatural union between the Lord and His people is the mystical and ultimate reflection of natural marriage between spouses.
As a corporate body, therefore, the Church as Bride will always be feminine just as a singular body the Priest in persona Christi must always be masculine. It reflects the divine nuptial banquet between husband and wife.

In today’s society, however, the Catholic priesthood has been reduced to the last frontier of the feminist power-play, and it is hardly surprising or a coincidence that the push for female priests comes at the same time when same-sex “marriages” are all the rage. Since the liturgical act mirrors the reality of marriage in society, a female priest with the Church as Bride would merely reflect the culture’s approval of homosexuality in general and same-sex “marriage” in particular. As we Latins say, lex orandi, lex credendi.
John Pacheco

This is explains very well why priests are men! 👍👍👍
 
To say that the church has no authority to change this is absurd, as Jesus clearly gave the church the authority to do so. “Your name is Peter, and on you my rock, I will build my church.?” (Sorry for the paraphrase, but you get my meaning.)
It’s not that the Church has no authority to change it, the Church has already declared no women in the priesthood, here’s a summary ewtn.com/library/curia/cdfrespo.htm if you’d like Vatican documents, I will post them. In the end all Catholics are called to assent to this, regardless if you disagree.

DaddyGirl, still waiting for a response to my question on page 4. But to address something else to your response to T More’s question, the right answer is that the role the Priesthood serves is to act in Persona Christi Capitis (in the Person of Christ the Head). How could a woman act in Persona Christi who was a male (true Man and true God)? Are we also blind to the obvious facts? No women were priests in the Levitical line nor will it be in the Melchizedek line, all the appointed by Christ were men (the Twelve Apostles), and we have an unbroken succession of only men throughout the two millennia.

How frustrating we are attacked by feminists because we cannot ordain women and we are attacked by Protestants because we hold Blessed Virgin Mary as the Queen of Heaven and Earth and regard her as co-redemptrix, mediatrix, and whom holds the highest honor and title of all creatures (angels and humans). Got to love it though, you know your part of the true Church when your attacked on all sides 👍 , it’s only when those attacks stop when we should worry.
 
Ohhhh.
When I read it, it read like the “disciple Jesus loved” was Mary M…and the “mother” was Mary the mother!!
Scripture indicate’s that there were 12 disciple’s.

John 19: 26 thru 27

26 When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by , whom he loved , he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!

27 Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.
 
While the Church corporately can be described as “feminine”, even the physical sanctuary in the Church building retains this quality. Within the sanctuary is the divine presence of Jesus in the Eucharist. The mirror of this, of course, is the Blessed Mother who carried Our Lord in her womb for nine months. Christ was “enclosed” within the feminine person just like the liturgical act of the priest is “enclosed” within the femine sanctuary of the Church. The unborn Christ and His Mother, therefore, were the prototype of the liturgical act which Catholics participate in every Sunday.
The priest stands in the person of Christ, “persona Christi”. It is not the priest himself who acts principally, but the Person of Christ HIMSELF who acts through the performance of the movements, gestures, and pronouncements of the priest during the Mass. And since Christ was male, the priest in whom Christ acts, must also be male in order to reflect the Incarnation in its fullness. The Incarnation, which was realized through a woman and a man, was not only a redemption of men and women, but also a redemption (and reconciliation) between men and women. At the altar, therefore, the male priest represents this incarnational reality of Jesus Christ within the womb of the sanctuary.
Is that your opinion, or do you have a source for that?

No offence intended, but I have difficulty imagining the Church working with that type of analogy. It sounds to me more like the type of theology that you can hear in a pub or read on the internet rather than learn in a church.

Bear in mind that in many languages other than English, nonus have genders. For example in French or Spanish or Latin a house is referred to as she, a church also. That’s not to say the house is a type of woman, but it is a grammatical form. In German you would even say she when talking about the church, but it when talking about a girl toddler. In France, if a woman were to be elected president, you would address her as “Madame le President de la République” (Mrs, the [he] president of the [she] republic). The function of president being grammatically of male gender even if the incumbent is female, and the republic being of female gender even if its constitution and laws were mostly made by men and its dignitaries are mostly men.
 
Actually, while the first christians worshipped inside jewish temples, they were not attending jewish worship at the time. Instead, they worshipped on saturday night or sunday morning, after the Jewish sabbath had been finished (and as recorded by St Paul). From day 1 the Christians worshipped differently than the jews and in their own services.
There was only one Jewish temple.
 
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