female priests

  • Thread starter Thread starter rice
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
I was told that the priest is “married to the church” who is the bride of Christ. Therefore a female preist would make it a “lesbian relationship”

Yet…
In regards to spirit, I suspect there is no difference between male and female. Both are more than likely feminine in the eyes of God as we collectively represent the “Bride of Christ”.
So when men act as a bride of Christ in the Church…doesn’t this constitute a homosexual relationship?

You demand that gender and “Bridal” metaphors have actual metaphysical realities in some cases, and then not in others. Which is it? If the Church is actually Christ’s bride (which is why the priest has to be male) then how can a male be part of the bride? In one instance the Church is the bride “symbolically” in another it is the bride “metaphysically”.
 
Again, Gnosis, it is a mystery. For those who want to go through the Bible, through the catechism, and find all the ‘contradictions’, the ‘female priest’ mantra of our times is just another ‘contradiction’, just another ‘patriarchircalism’, just another example of a <thing.practice.symbol.etc.> which can or should be made to be, act, or show whatever any person wants it to.

If you go around looking for how you can ‘change’ something in the Bible, the Church, Christianity etc., you’ll always find something that needs work, needs to be better, more relevant, more ‘encompassing’. Because this generation, like every other, has ‘itching ears’.

You know what? People who actually knew Christ, saw Him, spoke with Him, etc. wound up believing what some gnostic said instead of Paul, or Peter. . .because, well, hey, it just made them feel more “important” to think that Christ *really said * something different, that only they and the ‘important’ people actually knew. They had itching ears.

And it kept on going. All these ‘questions’ are nothing new. Jesus and His Church have been accused of being both too hateful and too ‘forgiving’, too hard and too simple, too rigid and not rigid enough, anti-women, anti-men, anti-Jew, pro-Jew, pro-slavery, anti-slavery, too progressive, not progressive enough. . .because people don’t want to ‘submit themselves’ to an authority, and so they pick and choose what they like, and ignore or bellow to ‘change’ what they don’t like.

Just once I would like to see all of us Catholics, whether we are labeled traditional, liberal, or middle of the road, try to take a decent period of time (like a year) and try to just ‘obey’ the teachings of the church, without whining, complaining, etc. Just take the plunge and obey. Honestly, what a great show of Christian unity and witness that would be to our fellow Christians. No wonder they are confused when even Catholics can’t agree to follow the Church teachings, when obedience to authority is one of our greatest gifts and heritage.
 
All right as a mostly faithful and devout Catholic this is where I take issue with the Church (the other is the use of power and hierarchy I have no problem with hierarchy but I have a problem with how infallibility is used sometimes- especially on this issue). My two objections to the main arguement:
  1. The priest in the persona of Christ therefore must be male- does not hold ground because although jesus as a human is male, jesus is also God. God, while being a personal and symbolic Father figure, is a transcendant being who goes beyond concepts of gender. God is neither male or female, technically it is infinite and beyond such things. If jesus is also god that means this applies to Christ as well- christ may be physically male but if he is one hundred percent god that means he is beyond gender as well and is transcendant. so for a priest to be in the person of christ to do the mass- that focuses on christ on God because a) only God can forgive sins and transform the bread and wine at mass- not a mere human- it is obviously jesus’s deity, not humanity, which must be focused on since it is a) by Jesus as God that these things can be done by a priest through christ- b) no mere human could do the above things a priest can do. therefore gender plays no matter because god is genderless and transcendant and god is also jesus
  2. jesus never chose women apostles or never ordained his mother- this is simply not true. and i can prove it by scripture. at the end of St. John’s gospel it tells us that Jesus did many more things, so much more that they couldn’t fill a multitude of books. Now although this doesn’t say that he ordained women as priests or his mother, it does give the POSSIBILITY for this happening. in other words it would be more accurate to say we don’t know but admit the actions could be possible due to what st. john tells us, but we’re not sure, rather than a straight out no.
I’m sure this will cause a stink as my other posts have but there you have it.

-Mike
 
Just once I would like to see all of us Catholics, whether we are labeled traditional, liberal, or middle of the road, try to take a decent period of time (like a year) and try to just ‘obey’ the teachings of the church, without whining, complaining, etc. Just take the plunge and obey. Honestly, what a great show of Christian unity and witness that would be to our fellow Christians. No wonder they are confused when even Catholics can’t agree to follow the Church teachings, when obedience to authority is one of our greatest gifts and heritage.
Amen.
 
All right as a mostly faithful and devout Catholic this is where I take issue with the Church (the other is the use of power and hierarchy I have no problem with hierarchy but I have a problem with how infallibility is used sometimes- especially on this issue). My two objections to the main arguement:
  1. The priest in the persona of Christ therefore must be male- does not hold ground because although jesus as a human is male, jesus is also God. God, while being a personal and symbolic Father figure, is a transcendant being who goes beyond concepts of gender. God is neither male or female, technically it is infinite and beyond such things. If jesus is also god that means this applies to Christ as well- christ may be physically male but if he is one hundred percent god that means he is beyond gender as well and is transcendant. so for a priest to be in the person of christ to do the mass- that focuses on christ on God because a) only God can forgive sins and transform the bread and wine at mass- not a mere human- it is obviously jesus’s deity, not humanity, which must be focused on since it is a) by Jesus as God that these things can be done by a priest through christ- b) no mere human could do the above things a priest can do. therefore gender plays no matter because god is genderless and transcendant and god is also jesus
  2. jesus never chose women apostles or never ordained his mother- this is simply not true. and i can prove it by scripture. at the end of St. John’s gospel it tells us that Jesus did many more things, so much more that they couldn’t fill a multitude of books. Now although this doesn’t say that he ordained women as priests or his mother, it does give the POSSIBILITY for this happening. in other words it would be more accurate to say we don’t know but admit the actions could be possible due to what st. john tells us, but we’re not sure, rather than a straight out no.
I’m sure this will cause a stink as my other posts have but there you have it.

-Mike
 
All right as a mostly faithful and devout Catholic this is where I take issue with the Church (the other is the use of power and hierarchy I have no problem with hierarchy but I have a problem with how infallibility is used sometimes- especially on this issue). My two objections to the main arguement:
  1. The priest in the persona of Christ therefore must be male- does not hold ground because although jesus as a human is male, jesus is also God. God, while being a personal and symbolic Father figure, is a transcendant being who goes beyond concepts of gender. God is neither male or female, technically it is infinite and beyond such things. If jesus is also god that means this applies to Christ as well- christ may be physically male but if he is one hundred percent god that means he is beyond gender as well and is transcendant. so for a priest to be in the person of christ to do the mass- that focuses on christ on God because a) only God can forgive sins and transform the bread and wine at mass- not a mere human- it is obviously jesus’s deity, not humanity, which must be focused on since it is a) by Jesus as God that these things can be done by a priest through christ- b) no mere human could do the above things a priest can do. therefore gender plays no matter because god is genderless and transcendant and god is also jesus
Yes, Jesus is divine but you’re rejecting Jesus as being fully human, which is a heresy.
  1. jesus never chose women apostles or never ordained his mother- this is simply not true. and i can prove it by scripture. at the end of St. John’s gospel it tells us that Jesus did many more things, so much more that they couldn’t fill a multitude of books. Now although this doesn’t say that he ordained women as priests or his mother, it does give the POSSIBILITY for this happening. in other words it would be more accurate to say we don’t know but admit the actions could be possible due to what st. john tells us, but we’re not sure, rather than a straight out no.
If that were the case then certainly the Apostles would have themselves, if being taught by Jesus himself and willing to die for His teachings and commands, apointed a woman through Apostolic Succession in order to be fully obedient. They didn’t. If they disobeyed Jesus from the very beginning, then wouldn’t you think that would make His other teachings falliable as well? The “gates of Hell” would have prevailed from the very beginning, making Christianity untrue from the start.

I’m sure this will cause a stink as my other posts have but there you have it.

-Mike
 
I was told that the priest is “married to the church” who is the bride of Christ. Therefore a female preist would make it a “lesbian relationship”

Yet…
Mr. Ex:
In regards to spirit, I suspect there is no difference between male and female. Both are more than likely feminine in the eyes of God as we collectively represent the “Bride of Christ”.
So when men act as a bride of Christ in the Church…doesn’t this constitute a homosexual relationship?

You demand that gender and “Bridal” metaphors have actual metaphysical realities in some cases, and then not in others. Which is it? If the Church is actually Christ’s bride (which is why the priest has to be male) then how can a male be part of the bride? In one instance the Church is the bride “symbolically” in another it is the bride “metaphysically”.
In a sense, I think you are confusing the spirit with the flesh when you ask these questions. I’ll come back to this point later. But I think I should address the biological factors first, then come to the spiritual factors later.

First of all, men and women are not the same. Period.

Our equality does not rest on this kind of politically correct egalitarian thinking which the world has embraced unquestionably in the West. While there are certainly many things which were good which came from the feminist movement for example, I can also think of a few things which were not good at all. And while there certainly were just reasons for standing up against oppressive laws, such as woman’s suffrage for example, there is certainly a strain of thought within the more radical feminists which are simply straight-out hate-filled and power-hungry.

If saying this is considered politically incorrect in our modern era, then so be it. There are strains of thought within the radical feminists agenda that plain and simply disgust me. Not only that, they disgust a majority of the women they are supposedly claiming to speak for.

Men and women will never find equality so long as their hope rests on this kind of egalitarian double-speak. Men and women will only find equality when each side realizes that they need each other–.and that they are not equal until they find harmony between each other’s strengths and weaknesses.

True equality is not political egalitarianism. That’s nothing more than a liberal’s wet dream and has nothing to do with true equality.

True equality is finding balance between the strengths and weaknesses between both men and women, and working together so that, upholding each other, we build a strong core of family which is essentially the most primal church itself.
The family is the original cell of social life. It is the natural society in which husband and wife are called to give themselves in love and in the gift of life. Authority, stability, and a life of relationships within the family constitute the foundations for freedom, security, and fraternity within society. The family is the community in which, from childhood, one can learn moral values, begin to honor God, and make good use of freedom. Family life is an initiation into life in society.
As my other post noted, there are biological differences between men and women-- and the physical mechanics of these biological differences do often play out in the roles we traditionally adhere to.

For example, on a biological level, it is strongly being established that women’s brains and men’s brains are effectively hardwired differently-- something which people have already known for thousands of years but is only recently being identified on a purely biological level. Review the link I provided in one of my previous posts to see how this plays out-- women tend to have more in this area.

On another level, the cellular level, we see that men and women are fundantally different right down to the chromosomes, that being xx and xy. In this area, men are more dominant for whatever reason. This isn’t just a patriachal bias. It’s a biological reality.

continued…
 
…continued
In my own opinion, God definitely designed these differences into our very being-- and the biological sciences confirm this fact over and over again for anyone paying attention (even if they do not see God in the equation). Both Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition agree strongly with this too-- and God is definitely in these later equations.

Even on a purely secular level, it is well established, even amongst the most liberal of scholars, that man is a hunter/gatherer so to speak. As such, he is often faced with dangerous situations that that their female counterparts are not as easilly equipped to deal with. It doesn’t mean they can’t do it. It just means it would probably be more difficult for them to do so.

Consequently, the Christian faith was set up in extremely dangerous times. There were several persecutions by Roman Emperors for example, with this going on and off and on again for approximately three centuries if I recall correctly. Although Christianity has blossumed through these tribulations, these kinds of persecutions have never completely abated. In several parts of the world these kinds of persecuations still go on today.

As such, based purely on human biological facts, it stands to reason that man is to stand in the fore-front of this assult against the Church, which is simply God’s family based on the pattern found in the wholely human pattern of family-- a primal pattern which represents the original cell of social life from which all other social obligations proceed.

This much should be self-evident to anyone who beleives and relies solely on natural law nothwithstanding any further divine revelations. Devout catholics, having access to further revelation from God, understand this truth innately by the body and blood of Christ of which we are part of. And, for the reocrd, I haven’t heard any Catholics disagreeing with this in this thread.

I could be wrong, so I’ll ask you to please feel free to correct me if I’ve made a mistake here.

Nonetheless, this brings us to the spiritual things I was speaking of before. I think you are confusing the spirit with the flesh when you ask these questions. In fact, I’m now fairly sure of it.

I’ll come to this part next.
 
You seem to be implicitly linking me to some feminist agenda. I have made no comments for or against feminism really. Its not a non-issue for me in the discussion.

Nor did I disagree that there are fundamental differences between male and female.

What I am pointing out is the inconsistency of your metaphors. It is said a priest must be male because the Church is the Bride. Okay, I will accept that momentarily. We have now characterized the Church as female. The apparent consequences of the Church being female is an all male priest hood serving it. If the metaphor of the Church as female is to be consistently applied, however, it would render males incapable, on account of their gender, to be part of the “Bride”.

Secondly, it has not been explained how the fundamental difference between the genders exlcludes women from the priesthood. The fundamental difference between genders did not preclude a male Jesus from becoming the sin offering on Calvary. It is obvious that, in atonement, Christ transcended boundaries and represened all genders before God in more than symbollic way, but literally took their place. If Christ can literally take a woman’s place before God, why can she not work in the person of Christ on the altar?
 
womenpriests.org/theology/macy.asp

there is the historical conclusion that at least some medievals, including bishops and popes, considered deaconesses and abbesses to be as ordained as any other cleric, given the definition of ordinatio used during these early centuries. As late as the twelfth century, there were still scholars who considered women to be sacramentally ordained.

despite continued opposition to that role by some church officials, these women routinely took on liturgical roles later reserved to the male presbyterate and diaconate. The answer to the historical question whether in fact Christians ever considered women as ordained clergy appears to be yes; women were considered to have been ordained at least in some ecclesiastical circles for over half of Christian history
 
Valke, that site is rather questionable (vested interest?) and it does not give any of the documentation of the supposed ‘hordes of scholars’ etc. Remember, there were several heretical groups around during those centuries, so the so-called “catholic scholars” may have been albigensians, waldensians, etc. etc. who professed themselves as ‘catholic’ but in fact were not, having rejected Church teachings. . .

And of course, our Church is a kingdom, not a democracy. Regardless of the number of ‘bishops’ etc. who may have ‘professed a belief’ in something, that does not make it a teaching of the Church.
 
Secondly, it has not been explained how the fundamental difference between the genders exlcludes women from the priesthood. The fundamental difference between genders did not preclude a male Jesus from becoming the sin offering on Calvary. It is obvious that, in atonement, Christ transcended boundaries and represened all genders before God in more than symbollic way, but literally took their place. If Christ can literally take a woman’s place before God, why can she not work in the person of Christ on the altar?
Again, did you read this?lumengentleman.com/content.asp?id=147
it is an answer for this question that has been answered multiple times. Or do you not agree with the facts that the sanctuary is a womb, a garden, that life (the Eucharist) is brought down into it each and every time the Consecration happens? Here’s an interesting thought, if it doesn’t matter if a priest is a woman, why was Christ not born as a woman? hmmmmmmm…
 
Valke, that site is rather questionable (vested interest?) and it does not give any of the documentation of the supposed ‘hordes of scholars’ etc. Remember, there were several heretical groups around during those centuries, so the so-called “catholic scholars” may have been albigensians, waldensians, etc. etc. who professed themselves as ‘catholic’ but in fact were not, having rejected Church teachings. . .

And of course, our Church is a kingdom, not a democracy. Regardless of the number of ‘bishops’ etc. who may have ‘professed a belief’ in something, that does not make it a teaching of the Church.
Don’t know why its questionable. I thought it footnoted its sources. I have no vested interest in it. I’m not sure how allowing female priests would help me. I don’t recall reading anything in the article about “hordes of scholars”. But here are 2 citations (taken pretty much at random) that are used in the article to support its premise regarding ordained women in the Church:

(2)The ordo is contained in Le Liber ordinum en usage dans l’église wisigothique et mozarabe d’Espagne du cinquième au onzième siècle, ed. Marius Férotin, reprint of 1904 edition, ed. Anthony Ward and Cuthbert Johnson, Bibliotheca Ephemerides liturgicae subsidia 83, Instrumenta liturgica quarreriensia 6 (Rome: C.L.V. Edizioni liturgiche, 1996) 113-15.

Raming, The Exclusion of Women 49-50, 54, 61, 65. According to Raming, the abbesses of the Carthusian Order sang the Epistle or Gospel at High Mass during the Middle Ages

I’m not saying one has to agree with the article, and your objections have merit, but the article does have 104 citations/footnotes to support what it says.
 
Or do you not agree with the facts that the sanctuary is a womb, a garden, that life (the Eucharist) is brought down into it each and every time the Consecration happens?
You continue to apply gender oriented metaphors. Yes, symbolically or metaphorically, the sanctuary can be seen as a womb. But surely it is not actually a literal womb and surely the priest is not actually bringing semen (life) into it.

It does not make sense to say that symbols or metaphors equate to biological realities. Just because a woman doesn’t have male sex organs does not mean she is incapable of bringing “life” into the “womb”.
Here’s an interesting thought, if it doesn’t matter if a priest is a woman, why was Christ not born as a woman?
There are probably many reasons for this. Firstly, it would have made things extremely difficult ministry wise. People in Israel tended to listen to the religious ideas of males alot more than females. Jesus would have been prevented by laws to enter the inner courts of the Temple and even to read scripture in the synagogue to the crowd. Jesus would probably have been killed by the Jews long before being crucified by the Romans.

If Jesus had been born a woman then, according to your line of thinking, we would simply have an all female priesthood to the exclusion of men, which I believe would be equally perplexing.

The point isnt what gender Jesus was, the point is that he came in the name of all humanity, represented all humanity, died for all of humanity , rose for all of humanity and brought sanctification for all of humanity.
 
You continue to apply gender oriented metaphors. Yes, symbolically or metaphorically, the sanctuary can be seen as a womb. But surely it is not actually a literal womb and surely the priest is not actually bringing semen (life) into it.

It does not make sense to say that symbols or metaphors equate to biological realities. Just because a woman doesn’t have male sex organs does not mean she is incapable of bringing “life” into the “womb”.

Ah an epiphany…You ar not catholic are you? I as a catholic know and believe that Christ is literally, substantially, present, body, soul and divinity in the consecrated host, the Holy Eucharist. Not just a symbolic presence, not a metaphorical presence, truly He is There, fully human and fully divine. So for one who stands on the outside of the Catholic church and does not know, or does not understand, or does not believe in the Real Presence, that would possibly be an answer to such a statement as “But surely it is not actually a literal womb and surely the priest does not actually bring life to it” Oh yes the priest does bring life to it, the Living God, The Word made Flesh. You or I could stand in that sanctuary, that garden, that womb, we could say the words that Jesus taught His Disciples, BUT unless we(not I since I am a woman!) have been Ordained and entered into a covenantal marriage with His BRIDE nothing will happen, notta, nyet, nuttin. That is the Priests job, it is through his hands that we are brought Jesus Christ in the Holy Eucharist. Praise God.
 
I actually attend a Church that does have a woman priest. She has a beautiful voice for plainsong and a real gift for counseling her parishioners. She keeps her Masses reverent, manages all the myriad programs the Church runs, and keeps up with her parishioners via email.

I can honestly say, she does the job and does it well. I have no complaints.

However, I am not Catholic. The Catholic Church is not a democracy nor is it there to be fair to anyone. If this lack of women priests is a deal-breaker for any Catholic, might I suggest a change of Churches? The Old Roman Catholics have a branch that allows women priests and the Anglicans, of course.
 
Folks (especially Gnosis and R. McGeddon), arguing about whether or not God is male is a red herring. Calling Jesus a misogynist for not calling women as His disciples is doing nothing but imposing Man’s judgement on God, which is a massively arrogant thing to do (not to mention slandering the Son of God).

There is a male-female dynamic in all the universe, and it’s there for a purpose: it illustrates the relationship between God and His creation. God created the universe ex nihilo - “from nothing” - and since He is not nothing, it means He didn’t nurture it within Himself; He created it outside Himself. In this way, God shows us that although He can nurture and love and console us as a mother might, He is not to be confused as being female. The entire dynamic between God and His creation is that of a Father.

As a man enters his wife to bring forth new life, so did God enter into His creation to bring forth the Savior. Jesus gave Himself similarly to His Bride, the Church, to bring forth the salvation of Mankind. Christ even died for His Church, as a husband might sacrifice himself for his wife’s sake.

The entire universal dynamic between God and Creation screams the male/female duality of existence, politically correct social philosophy notwithstanding.

Regardless of God’s transcendence of gender - regardless of the male/female dynamic of the universe - regardless, even, of the differences between today’s diseased culture and the Holy Land of 33 A.D. - we know this: Jesus did not call any women to be disciples, neither did He send them out into the world, swords tucked under their cloaks, to spread the Gospel. We don’t know why; indeed, we’ll never know why this side of Eternity.

We ***do ***know this: the Catholic Church is called to follow Christ’s example - even if it hurts. What He did, She may do; and what He did not do, She may not do. He forgave sins; so may She. He loved His persecutors; so must She. He did not ordain women; neither may She.

The Catholic Church believes that She has no authority to ordain women; Pope John Paul II (of blessed memory) formally declared this belief and made it binding on all the Faithful. Roma locutus est; causa finite est.

Other far more learned than I have argued so in far more eloquent terms; I beg forgiveness if I seem simple in comparison, but the issue really is that simple to me. Protestants and other non-Catholics are free to believe whatever they wish, and they’re welcome to it.

But here stands the Church, and I stand with Her; for me, there is nowhere else to stand!
 
As much as i love hearing interprestations from the Bible, with respect it dosn’t asnwer my question. I seek to know how this religion gives hope and purpose to its followers. Not how the followers memorise a book and use it to argue every single point they have to make.

Back to the point acknowledgement that males and females are different is obviouse. BUT why disallow female priests, yes since they are different they will forfill the role differently but what is it about males that makes them so much better at the role than females?

btw agrueing that it is somehow gods will is not an arguement that would appeal to an agnostic such as myself.
 
If it was as important as you think, it would have been recorded.
Misogynist is a Greek word in origin and considerably pre-dates christianity. It hardly qualifies as a trendy political notion :rolleyes:
**Why does he parade around in outfits that would put Liberace to shame???

Did Jesus spread the word dressed in such a manner??/**
QUOTE]

Comments like the above are not welcomed here. Debate yes, no insults please. Keep it civil and Christian.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top