Feminism, can any good come from it?

[Hastrman]

I’m sorry, it still just sounds like a socialist pipe dream.

Again, what is so wrong with working within the system of capitalism to make it more palatable for those who must live with it? Do you actually think that the world’s economy will convert to this ‘guild syndicalist’ model?

Socialism in practice is just a tool for changing capitalism into slavery, and I spit on it too; guilds are based on private property, not its negation. All attempts to work from “within” capitalism suffer the same danger as socialism, of establishing slavery by creating a separate legal status for the proletariat–read The Servile State. Also, the medical and legal professions already operate on the guild model, so any other industry could too.

But very well, back on topic (spoilsport) .

Feminism as it historically existed has been responsible for so much evil, and not a single unmixed good–even suffrage is not an intrinsic good, considering the vast unrealities involved in politics. Education mostly means brainwashing.

I do not doubt that the “New Feminists” who follow John Paul II are different from the quasi-Marxist academic or ideological Feminists; but do you understand why people might be wary of the name? Imagine trusting a “New Bolshevik” or, come to think of it, a Neo-Nazi.

My advice is to keep all your ideals and change your name. That way you won’t be lumped in with people you’d never agree with.

I can’t come up with any new names, though. “Gynists”, from the Greek word for woman, sounds stupid, and vaguely like shorthand for a certain medical specialty.

 

[lak611]

Socialism in practice is just a tool for changing capitalism into slavery, and I spit on it too. Guilds are based on private property, not its negation. Also, the medical and legal professions already operate on the guild model, so any other industry could too. And you might as well ask what’s wrong with working within the system of honor-killings or child-marriages.

But very well, since this thread asks what good feminism has done, let us discuss its role as the she-schill of capitalism.

Feminism is responsible for the triumph of capitalism, and capitalism’s destruction of the family, because feminism told women they needed to work, needed to slave for the capitalists just like their men, in order to be equal. The early feminists were all, to use the picturesque Bolshevik expression, “running dogs of the bosses”.

Poor women had had to labor since the Industrial Revolution, of course, but feminism spread that indignity to the middle and even the upper class, as well.

Because they believed they needed to work to have equality, women were willing to work for less money, and without the benefit of unions. In other words, they became scabs.

And because the feminists made capitalism stronger, they made capitalism’s two children, Communism and Socialism, stronger. As discontent with capitalism rose, short-sighted and ignorant reformers saw their only alternatives as the other, related, but allegedly less unequal systems. As the injustices of those systems became apparent, allegiance to Capitalism, which at least didn’t formally remove liberty, grew apace. The two halves of the proletarian whole fed off each other, as reactions against one system fed the other.

That is the legacy of feminism, as regards economics.

If capitalism, communism and socialism all failed so miserably, what are the chances that syndicalism will succeed? After all, the article I gave the link to mentioned syndicalism also allying with anarchism.

 

[Hastrman]

If capitalism, communism and socialism all failed so miserably, what are the chances that syndicalism will succeed? After all, the article I gave the link to mentioned syndicalism also allying with anarchism.

Where the dickens did you get that post? I changed it to its final form, above (or below, depending on how you have your settings).

Like I said (but of course you can’t be bothered to read), the syndicalism talked about in that article is not the same kind.

And anyway, we’ve dragged this poor thread off-topic too many times; let’s not do it again.

 

[blessedtoo]

And anyway, we’ve dragged this poor thread off-topic too many times; let’s not do it again.:clapping:

 

[Sixtus]

Feminism, the political philosophy that has now become an incredibly selfish, power-worshipping, and cynical movement.

I have always been at the cutting edge leading the way to Equality of Opportunity and acceptance of Diversity,

Imagine then how I felt when I undertook a years level 4 course of study when I had to sit listening to 'how wicked us men were in denying women their equal rights, how we are all aggressive ‘women beaters’, Spend all the family resources of gambling and alcohol. How we are responsible for all the worlds ills. How there is only one word a man understands so he repeats it three times ‘me’ ‘me’ ‘me’.How actually we are now redundant. Since the advent of artificial insemination, men are no longer required!

Everytime I left the classroom, I felt as though I had been badly beaten up. It was traumatising. The course tutor encouraged this but the female members of the group were not slow in taking her lead and reciprocating.

NEVER NEVER NEVER AGAIN will I ever speak up for a woman or women’s rights in the work place. In my view they do not want equality they want total dicatorial supremacy.

Men stand firm.

 

[MariaG]

I have always been at the cutting edge leading the way to Equality of Opportunity and acceptance of Diversity,

Imagine then how I felt when I undertook a years level 4 course of study when I had to sit listening to 'how wicked us men were in denying women their equal rights, how we are all aggressive ‘women beaters’, Spend all the family resources of gambling and alcohol. How we are responsible for all the worlds ills. How there is only one word a man understands so he repeats it three times ‘me’ ‘me’ ‘me’.How actually we are now redundant. Since the advent of artificial insemination, men are no longer required!

Everytime I left the classroom, I felt as though I had been badly beaten up. It was traumatising. The course tutor encouraged this but the female members of the group were not slow in taking her lead and reciprocating.

NEVER NEVER NEVER AGAIN will I ever speak up for a woman or women’s rights in the work place. In my view they do not want equality they want total dicatorial supremacy.

Men stand firm.

You would be correct that in today’s world the word “women’s rights or feminism” have a far left agenda that have litte to do with equality.

But one should not confuse, which is apparently what many here wish to do, inthe “feminism” of the 18th and early 19th century that fought for basic human rights and self determination of free will, a God given right, with the radical feminism of the 1960’s and 70’s which had a far different tone and agenda.

Dignity, self respect, and self determination (a God given right) not to mention the right to vote and own property even after marriage are some of the fruits of the feminism of the 1800’s and 1900’s.

The question of this thread was supposed to be What good has come from the feminism of the 1800’s and 1900’s.

I ask all of those here, do you think women right to vote was a BAD thing? Was women’s right to NOT be treated as a piece of property a BAD thing?

 

[Zahmir]

I have always been at the cutting edge leading the way to Equality of Opportunity and acceptance of Diversity,

Imagine then how I felt when I undertook a years level 4 course of study when I had to sit listening to 'how wicked us men were in denying women their equal rights, how we are all aggressive ‘women beaters’, Spend all the family resources of gambling and alcohol. How we are responsible for all the worlds ills. How there is only one word a man understands so he repeats it three times ‘me’ ‘me’ ‘me’.How actually we are now redundant. Since the advent of artificial insemination, men are no longer required!

Everytime I left the classroom, I felt as though I had been badly beaten up. It was traumatising. The course tutor encouraged this but the female members of the group were not slow in taking her lead and reciprocating.

NEVER NEVER NEVER AGAIN will I ever speak up for a woman or women’s rights in the work place. In my view they do not want equality they want total dicatorial supremacy.

Men stand firm.

Men need to stand firm for men and women’s rights. Sometimes, feminism can be taken to extremes, such as in the example you shared. In fact, this wouldn’t even be accurately classified as feminism but… sexism, the favoring of one sex over the other and in this case, women.

Unfortunately, there is much truth to that stereotype. We need more strong men who are able to be solely dependent on Christ for his peace, not material things.

 

[Rach620]

Before women flooded the workforce in their attempt to “prove” their worth and value, men were paid wages that allowed them to fully provide for their families. … But now, with the myriad of laws that PREVENT employers from paying higher wages to men with families, it has BECOME a necessity for both parents to work. I see this as a direct result of women entering the workforce and demanding equal pay. Those women who do want to stay home with their children, who aren’t concerned with proving their worth in the workplace, are now left with little choice because their husbands are no longer recognized as the primary breadwinners and compensated thusly.

So what’s a potential solution, then? Getting women out of the workforce is obviously not a tenable one, and legally businesses cannot pay ‘family-friendly’ salaries. So what are we to do but hope and pray for more accomodations for working mothers on the parts of employers?

Yes, and today 3 to 4 MILLION women are beaten by, not only spouses, but boyfriends. You are kidding yourself if you think things are better for women today.

Women have always been abused and taken advantage of throughout history. Except now we are able to understand that that’s not OK–that we have our own dignity. A big part of realizing that, like it or not, were the effects of the historical feminist movement. Women got to be educated, and came to understand that they had inherent value as a human person. The abuse of women will never stop.

In addition, the definition of “abuse” today has become so broad that it’s nearly absurd. A huge feminist money making industry is dependent on convincing women that any snide comment from the husband could qualify as “abuse”.

sigh Isn’t the standard for ‘abuse’ pretty much the feelings of the person who is receiving it? I don’t think there is really an objective standard there–I mean, there are things we can all identify as abusive (rape, physical assault), but then there are also insidious patterns of abuse which don’t always manifest themselves as such extreme actions, but which are nonetheless extremely emotionally harmful.

I understand that claims of harassment and abuse have been taken to extremes lately…but I still wouldn’t call the definition ‘absurd’.

 

[Rach620]

Feminism as it historically existed has been responsible for so much evil, and not a single unmixed good–even suffrage is not an intrinsic good, considering the vast unrealities involved in politics. Education mostly means brainwashing.

What man-made institution HAS been responsible for a single unmixed good? I can’t think of one, because man cannot create an intrinsic good, that is only for God to do. Anyways, I don’t believe I even ever made the claim that feminism had done such a thing. I just said that we must remember that the original social/political rights gained by women via the historical feminist movement (suffrage, education, and choice of profession) were* good ones*. Not necessarily intrinsically good, but good and beneficial nonetheless.

It makes no sense to allow men to enjoy these rights, which are not intrinsic goods, but to deny women the same, especially when they can benefit from their effects. Like I’ve said, I appreciate my opportunity to be educated. While in many cases higher education does mean ‘brainwashing,’ that’s not categorically the case–nor should it be. We don’t keep people from pursuing an education simply because there’s a danger they might be brainwashed. With a little prudence and guidance, I’ve avoided the brainwashing at my university.

I do not doubt that the “New Feminists” who follow John Paul II are different from the quasi-Marxist academic or ideological Feminists; but do you understand why people might be wary of the name? Imagine trusting a “New Bolshevik” or, come to think of it, a Neo-Nazi.

My advice is to keep all your ideals and change your name. That way you won’t be lumped in with people you’d never agree with.

It’s not really my problem that people can’t seem to get over their mental associations with words. There’s nothing wrong with the word ‘feminism’ in and of itself. Like I’ve said, if people automatically think “oh, by calling herself a feminist, she must be a member of NOW and hate men,” that’s their own ASSUMPTION, and by calling myself a Catholic ‘new feminist,’ I’ll have the opportunity to explain myself. That’s what I’m trying to do here. So instead of continuing to argue about the label or ‘banner’ I’ve chosen, can we discuss the real issue here–the value of historical feminism?

 

[Rach620]

Everytime I left the classroom, I felt as though I had been badly beaten up. It was traumatising. The course tutor encouraged this but the female members of the group were not slow in taking her lead and reciprocating.

NEVER NEVER NEVER AGAIN will I ever speak up for a woman or women’s rights in the work place. In my view they do not want equality they want total dicatorial supremacy.

Men stand firm.

That sounds like a horrible experience. I completely understand feeling like the intellectual outsider in a class, and it’s sick that in this situation the ‘class’ turned into a raving personal attack.

But you have to realize–from reading this thread, especially–that there is a huge difference between those ranting, anti-male ‘feminazis’ and those of us feminists who actually care about the dignity of women–and recognize that it in large part relies on the dignity of men! There’s nothing wrong with supporting a woman or her rights in the workplace to equal pay or consideration–in fact, I would call it your duty as a Catholic to seek true justice in that situation.

You would be correct that in today’s world the word “women’s rights or feminism” have a far left agenda that have litte to do with equality.

But one should not confuse, which is apparently what many here wish to do, inthe “feminism” of the 18th and early 19th century that fought for basic human rights and self determination of free will, a God given right, with the radical feminism of the 1960’s and 70’s which had a far different tone and agenda.

Dignity, self respect, and self determination (a God given right) not to mention the right to vote and own property even after marriage are some of the fruits of the feminism of the 1800’s and 1900’s.

The question of this thread was supposed to be What good has come from the feminism of the 1800’s and 1900’s.

I ask all of those here, do you think women right to vote was a BAD thing? Was women’s right to NOT be treated as a piece of property a BAD thing?

Exactly the point, Maria. Calling those political rights bad in and of themselves is really the only way one could argue that “nothing good” came of the historical feminist movement.

 

[blessedtoo]

sigh* Isn’t the standard for ‘abuse’ pretty much the feelings of the person who is receiving it? I don’t think there is really an objective standard there–I mean, there are things we can all identify as abusive (rape, physical assault), but then there are also insidious patterns of abuse which don’t always manifest themselves as such extreme actions, but which are nonetheless extremely emotionally harmful.

I understand that claims of harassment and abuse have been taken to extremes lately…but I still wouldn’t call the definition ‘absurd’.

Read the checklist. Is there a woman alive who hasn’t experienced at least some of these situations with her spouse? I think if we are going to throw husbands in jail for abusing their wives, there ought to be a better measure than what the feminists have crammed down our throats.
Domestic Violence Checklist
www.odmhsas.org/News%20Stories%20PDF/10-03%20Domestic%20Violence%20Checklist.pdf

You are very earnest and I believe your intentions are completely in line with Church teaching. I get the distinction between what you are saying and what others are trying to imply you are saying. I would simply suggest that you read a bit more about the tremendous negative impact of radical feminism on, not only society, but our beloved Church as well. I mentioned a book early on in this thread which is quite illuminating. In addition, the book below, written by a Catholic woman, will also give you a better historical perspective on the damage that has been wrought on our society. Your argument will have more weight if you understand the enormity of this movement and it’s profound ramifications.
amazon.com/Women-Who-Make-World-Worse/dp/B000GIW43W/sr=1-1/qid=1170869483/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-5522025-3055128?ie=UTF8&s=books

 

[MariaG]

You are very earnest and I believe your intentions are completely in line with Church teaching. I get the distinction between what you are saying and what others are trying to imply you are saying. I would simply suggest that you read a bit more about the tremendous negative impact of radical feminism on, not only society, but our beloved Church as well. I mentioned a book early on in this thread which is quite illuminating. In addition, the book below, written by a Catholic woman, will also give you a better historical perspective on the damage that has been wrought on our society. Your argument will have more weight if you understand the enormity of this movement and it’s profound ramifications.
amazon.com/Women-Who-Make-World-Worse/dp/B000GIW43W/sr=1-1/qid=1170869483/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-5522025-3055128?ie=UTF8&s=books

This book appears to have nothing about women before the 1960’s?

How is it going to put the “women movement” into historical perspective? The OP is refering not just to the recent women’s movement but also to the feminism of the 1800’s and 1900’s. Women suffrage.

Do you think it was bad for women to have the right to vote? That women’s right to vote and own property and not be treated as a piece of property has brought damage to our society?

 

[JimG]

Originally Posted by blessedtoo:

Before women flooded the workforce in their attempt to “prove” their worth and value, men were paid wages that allowed them to fully provide for their families. … But now, with the myriad of laws that PREVENT employers from paying higher wages to men with families, it has BECOME a necessity for both parents to work. I see this as a direct result of women entering the workforce and demanding equal pay. Those women who do want to stay home with their children, who aren’t concerned with proving their worth in the workplace, are now left with little choice because their husbands are no longer recognized as the primary breadwinners and compensated thusly.

Reply by Rach 621
So what’s a potential solution, then? Getting women out of the workforce is obviously not a tenable one, and legally businesses cannot pay ‘family-friendly’ salaries. So what are we to do but hope and pray for more accomodations for working mothers on the parts of employers?

It is unlikely, but not impossible, that the trend toward working moms could reverse itself if mothers chose, in sufficient numbers, to stay out of the workforce. There are economic advantages to that choice just as there are to working.

My point was that when the majority of mothers moved into the workforce, it inevitably and adversely affected families with stay at home moms.

In the 1970’s I was working in mortgage banking as an underwriter. When I first started, the rule was that a working mother’s income was not counted. That was later revised to where we were counting half her income. But that practice, which now seems quaint and discriminatory, soon was dropped, and the same rules applied equally to income from either husband or wife. ECOA now mandates it.

Over the next decade or so, I noticed that far more applicants were able to qualify for home loans. Simultaneously, home prices shot up dramatically. That wasn’t so bad for two income families, although there were spending a substantial amount of their family income to put a roof over their heads. (Debt ratios kept creeping up.) For single income families, however, the change was negative. The market had turned against them; they had to cope with higher prices without dual incomes.

 

[MariaG]

i want to know what about the historical feminist movement was good.

did the catholic church support any aspect of the feminist movement of the 19th and 20th century? wasn’t dominated by white protestant women? has womens’ entrance into the workforce led to more animosity between men and women?

Okay we seem to be focused on the last question and be stuck in the 1960’s and later.

Anyone want to say that women having the right to vote was BAD? Women not being treated as Property was BAD?

If not, then it appears that this would be the at least part of the “good” that has come out of the historical feminist movement of the 1800 and 1900’s.

Does any disagree?

 

[Rach620]

Read the checklist. Is there a woman alive who hasn’t experienced at least some of these situations with her spouse? I think if we are going to throw husbands in jail for abusing their wives, there ought to be a better measure than what the feminists have crammed down our throats.
Domestic Violence Checklist
www.odmhsas.org/News%20Stories%20PDF/10-03%20Domestic%20Violence%20Checklist.pdf

I read the list. I might not consider the first one to be abuse (“Embarrass you with bad names or put-downs”), but it could definitely be an indicator of it.

You have to admit that almost everything else on that list does constitute spousal abuse (and you’ll notice that the sheet isn’t gender-specific. It wasn’t written only for women.), or at least a really messed up marriage. Obviously men are not being thrown in jail for only embarrassing their wives, but information such as that is important, as it can help women get out of potentially dangerous situations.

I think the last thing you should be attacking as a negative consequence of radical feminism is the increased level of awareness of domestic violence. It’s just rather cold, and I still fail to see your point in bringing it up. It’s never okay–feminism or not–for a man to treat his wife, the woman who he is supposed to give himself to completely and love above all others, in the ways in which that website describes. NEVER.

You are very earnest and I believe your intentions are completely in line with Church teaching. I get the distinction between what you are saying and what others are trying to imply you are saying. I would simply suggest that you read a bit more about the tremendous negative impact of radical feminism on, not only society, but our beloved Church as well. I mentioned a book early on in this thread which is quite illuminating. In addition, the book below, written by a Catholic woman, will also give you a better historical perspective on the damage that has been wrought on our society. Your argument will have more weight if you understand the enormity of this movement and it’s profound ramifications.
amazon.com/Women-Who-Make-World-Worse/dp/B000GIW43W/sr=1-1/qid=1170869483/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-5522025-3055128?ie=UTF8&s=books

Thank you for the book recommendation.

Please don’t think I don’t understand the negative impact of radical feminism. I haven’t spoken of it here because I thought we could assume I abhorred it on this Catholic forum. My point has only been that we can find some value in the historical feminist movement of the 18th-19th centuries. At any point where feminists turn from fighting for the freedom to realize her own vocation in her life towards sexual ‘liberation’, a Catholic in good conscience will have to part ways from that school of thought. That’s what I have done.

 

[Rach620]

Okay we seem to be focused on the last question and be stuck in the 1960’s and later.

Anyone want to say that women having the right to vote was BAD? Women not being treated as Property was BAD?

If not, then it appears that this would be the at least part of the “good” that has come out of the historical feminist movement of the 1800 and 1900’s.

Does any disagree?

lol, I’ve heard crickets chirping since you first posted this awhile ago…

 

[MariaG]

lol, I’ve heard crickets chirping since you first posted this awhile ago…

Yeah, but I’m like a dog with a bone. That question is not going away.

I will be glad to jump on the band wagon and talk about the terrible things that have come from the radical feminism in the late 60’ and 70’s, but the question in the OP was what good has come from the historical feminism of the 1800 and 1900’s. There seems to be a definite desire to think that NO GOOD has come from it.

Therefore, I will submit again, Was the woman’s right to vote BAD? Good? Indifferent? Pick one

I submit to the OP, and have since post # 2 that voting is at least one good thing that has come from it.

 

[blessedtoo]

Ladies, ladies, I’m not ignoring the question! Just didn’t get home until now!

Honestly, I think we actually all agree here. Of course women’s right to vote was essential. And of course, women should not be considered “property”. Let’s all agree that these were wonderful outcomes of a movement that started with a basic Christian message of equal dignity. But that message has been twisted beyond recognition, as far as I am concerned. So that even the identification of “feminist” carries such a negative connotation that we end up quarrelling when in fact we mostly agree.

Where I do part company is with regard to the OP’s question about the Church’s participation in the women’s movement. Perhaps I read the question wrong, but my impression was the OP wanted to know what impact feminism has had on the Church. And from my vantage point, virtually nothing good has come from it.

 

[MariaG]

You mean, “how about the attempt by the Republicans and the Labour party to gerrymander by expanding the franchise?”

See, the only reason suffrage happened was that the dominant parties thought they’d do better if women had the right to vote. In other words, gerrymandering.

Stirring, ain’t it?

what other good things? why is suffrage so good? did the catholic church support it?

i think the error intrinsic to feminism is that men and women must be equal in ‘power’ and not just dignity. if the feminist movement stood against pornography and abuse, which are dignity issues, i would say that feminism was good.

These were posted by the OP in response to the posts that the good that came out was women suffrage. These were posts #4 and #6.

 

[MariaG]

Ladies, ladies, I’m not ignoring the question! Just didn’t get home until now!

Honestly, I think we actually all agree here. Of course women’s right to vote was essential. And of course, women should not be considered “property”. Let’s all agree that these were wonderful outcomes of a movement that started with a basic Christian message of equal dignity. But that message has been twisted beyond recognition, as far as I am concerned. So that even the identification of “feminist” carries such a negative connotation that we end up quarrelling when in fact we mostly agree.

Where I do part company is with regard to the OP’s question about the Church’s participation in the women’s movement. Perhaps I read the question wrong, but my impression was the OP wanted to know what impact feminism has had on the Church. And from my vantage point, virtually nothing good has come from it.

Could WE agree? Probably, but I doubt the OP is on the same page, nor is it apparent from his response to our posts #2 and #3 (nor the responses of JimG) that he wanted to know what impact feminism has had on the Church, but rather what the opinion OF the Church was on feminism of the 1800’s and 1900’s and whether it was supported by the Church.

i want to know what about the historical feminist movement was good.

did the catholic church support any aspect of the feminist movement of the 19th and 20th century? wasn’t dominated by white protestant women? has womens’ entrance into the workforce led to more animosity between men and women?

But that is, of course, just my opinion.

God bless,
Maria