S
snoopy
Guest
If men would maintain their morals, many more women would.
- Status
C
CARose
Guest
If we each understood and better protected our own morals we’d all be better off.
CARose
CARose
S
Scott_Lafrance
Guest
Feminism 
C
CarolAnnSFO
Guest
It depends on what you mean by “feminism”. If you mean the right to vote, I’m in favor of that. Equal pay for equal work? I’m in favor of that, too. Those of us who aren’t married don’t have the option to stay home – it’s either go out and work, or starve – and it’s nice to know we can at least get paid a decent salary (and not all families with two working parents are just trying to afford luxuries – there are plenty of families who need both parents working just to put food on the table. Not all jobs are high-paid, and some parts of the country are a lot more expensive to live in than others).
As far as the more radical, man-hating faction – they don’t speak for me.
As far as the more radical, man-hating faction – they don’t speak for me.
C
cathyt
Guest
There are a million ways to define feminism, and I think we could argue about what it means forever, but I think that the example of Jesus Christ should teach us all something about equality: we are all called to sacrifice something of ourselves.
For some women, that may mean sacrificing career for the good of her family. For another it may mean sacrificing marriage and family for a very demanding, but wonderful career. For a lot of others it means something else entirely.
It isn’t just women who are called to suffer; but men as well. To live a life that follows Christ’s example, you can’t “have it all.” Women and men are called to give of themselves.
For some women, that may mean sacrificing career for the good of her family. For another it may mean sacrificing marriage and family for a very demanding, but wonderful career. For a lot of others it means something else entirely.
It isn’t just women who are called to suffer; but men as well. To live a life that follows Christ’s example, you can’t “have it all.” Women and men are called to give of themselves.
J
jp2fan
Guest
You can’t be Christian and anti-feminism. It just doesn’t work. Pope John Paul himself was quite a feminist. You should read his writings to women. Feminism has done many great things for women. Votes, equal pay, etc. We can’t hate the feminist movement as a whole, because without it, we wouldn’t have these awesome things which truly are good.
However, feminism needs to be kept in check. It has gone way off the deep end in the last century, and ended up defeating itself. Let’s take a few issues-
contraception- “sex without consequences, just like the men have” If women have to change the way God made their bodies to work, in order to be equal to men, then their bodies were never equal in the first place. If we want to be more like men in order to be equal, then we are just admitting that men are superior.
abortion- “control over our bodies” Just allows men to be more irresponsible. If men can have sex with whomever they want because of contraception, then when that contraception fails, the woman is left with the child. Through abortion, men never have to step up to the plate and accept responsibility for their own actions.
women in the workplace- “equal opportunity” Defeats our vocations to motherhood. We have been given a great gift in childbearing, one which men will never have. When we deny this gift to do the things men can do, we are saying that the gifts God gave us are inferior. I’m not saying women in the workplace is bad at all, but that our dignity certainly should not lie there.
You get the idea. My point is that we should all call ourselves feminists, for even Jesus was a feminist in the true sense of the word, and so was our pope. But, the world needs Christian feminism these days to show women their dignity and to reclaim the importance and responsibilities of men in our lives.
jp2fan
However, feminism needs to be kept in check. It has gone way off the deep end in the last century, and ended up defeating itself. Let’s take a few issues-
contraception- “sex without consequences, just like the men have” If women have to change the way God made their bodies to work, in order to be equal to men, then their bodies were never equal in the first place. If we want to be more like men in order to be equal, then we are just admitting that men are superior.
abortion- “control over our bodies” Just allows men to be more irresponsible. If men can have sex with whomever they want because of contraception, then when that contraception fails, the woman is left with the child. Through abortion, men never have to step up to the plate and accept responsibility for their own actions.
women in the workplace- “equal opportunity” Defeats our vocations to motherhood. We have been given a great gift in childbearing, one which men will never have. When we deny this gift to do the things men can do, we are saying that the gifts God gave us are inferior. I’m not saying women in the workplace is bad at all, but that our dignity certainly should not lie there.
You get the idea. My point is that we should all call ourselves feminists, for even Jesus was a feminist in the true sense of the word, and so was our pope. But, the world needs Christian feminism these days to show women their dignity and to reclaim the importance and responsibilities of men in our lives.
jp2fan
J
JCPhoenix
Guest
JP2fan, that was a great post!
And I agree completely.
I spent so much time and effort, encouraged by the radical fems to base my definition of myself upon my career path that I am just now figuring out what it means to be a woman.
I had a friend in college who chastized me not so much for being a tomboy, but rather for aligning myself so much with my male friends. He saw what I didn’t…that I was losing touch with my feminity.
And until recently, I still didn’t see it.
Through the grace of God and the intercession of our Blessed Mother, I’m finally figuring out that gasp I’m a woman, and even more, I am a Catholic Woman.
Maybe this isn’t so profound to some of you who never lost touch, but as JP2fan pointed out, it’s hard to be single and not have to work.
It’s the secular world that causes us to define ourselves, and the Church that seeks to rescue us and restore to us the definition that God gave us at our conception.
I will champion women’s rights day and night, and I have and will continue to stand up for women who are beaten, abused, etc. For that matter, I will not watch anyone, male or female, steamrolled and abused. I do see that as true feminism.
But I will not condone those symbles of the rad-fems–contraception, abortion, self-over-all-others, etc.
I really wish I had learned long ago what so many are teaching me now…but then again…there is something to be said for God for bringing us back from the brink.
And I agree completely.
I spent so much time and effort, encouraged by the radical fems to base my definition of myself upon my career path that I am just now figuring out what it means to be a woman.
I had a friend in college who chastized me not so much for being a tomboy, but rather for aligning myself so much with my male friends. He saw what I didn’t…that I was losing touch with my feminity.
And until recently, I still didn’t see it.
Through the grace of God and the intercession of our Blessed Mother, I’m finally figuring out that gasp I’m a woman, and even more, I am a Catholic Woman.
Maybe this isn’t so profound to some of you who never lost touch, but as JP2fan pointed out, it’s hard to be single and not have to work.
It’s the secular world that causes us to define ourselves, and the Church that seeks to rescue us and restore to us the definition that God gave us at our conception.
I will champion women’s rights day and night, and I have and will continue to stand up for women who are beaten, abused, etc. For that matter, I will not watch anyone, male or female, steamrolled and abused. I do see that as true feminism.
But I will not condone those symbles of the rad-fems–contraception, abortion, self-over-all-others, etc.
I really wish I had learned long ago what so many are teaching me now…but then again…there is something to be said for God for bringing us back from the brink.
J
jimmy
Guest
hahahaha
C
caroljm36
Guest
I’m 56 and remember the 60s feminism wave pretty well though it was called Women’s Liberation back then. You have to realize that prior to the Feminine Mystique by Betty Freidan, in 1963, you had this whole snarky snotty male attitude in all the magazines and books…what’s wrong with women?? Why aren’t they happy?? Don’t they have nice homes, children, charity work?? What else do they need??
Older people tell me marriages really started falling apart after WWII–lots of big changes then. Men acted like we were lucky if they married us and that they felt trapped by wives and families. (Plenty of men had already rebelled…remember Jack Kerouac?)
I remember as a child being highly offended (and hurt) by the notion that I was supposed to wait and pray and hope a man deigns to marry me. (Maybe it was because my mother was hoping and praying and crying because her boyfriend wouldn’t marry her.)
What if no one wanted me?? Is my life “ruined”?? There was a lot of tension, drinking, Kinsey, pseudo-Freudian psychologizing and all that…this is all pre-1963. And I remember how unhappy and edgy a lot of my parents’ generation were…anyway, it was bound to happen that young women would rise up and say hey we don’t need your stinking condescension and wedding ring…to hell with ya! By then they had equal rights to attend state colleges at least.
So basically to me it was about self-help: go to school get a trade, be able to support yourself so you’re not economically dependent the way the older women were. It should have stayed like that but of course it all spun out of control. After the Mystique book hit there were more and more extreme books that took the ideas further. Frankly though, remembering my mother’s misery, and the nasty superiority of men back in the 1950s, I’m not sure which world I would prefer. Coming from a broken home I saw the worst of both worlds I think.
Older people tell me marriages really started falling apart after WWII–lots of big changes then. Men acted like we were lucky if they married us and that they felt trapped by wives and families. (Plenty of men had already rebelled…remember Jack Kerouac?)
I remember as a child being highly offended (and hurt) by the notion that I was supposed to wait and pray and hope a man deigns to marry me. (Maybe it was because my mother was hoping and praying and crying because her boyfriend wouldn’t marry her.)
What if no one wanted me?? Is my life “ruined”?? There was a lot of tension, drinking, Kinsey, pseudo-Freudian psychologizing and all that…this is all pre-1963. And I remember how unhappy and edgy a lot of my parents’ generation were…anyway, it was bound to happen that young women would rise up and say hey we don’t need your stinking condescension and wedding ring…to hell with ya! By then they had equal rights to attend state colleges at least.
So basically to me it was about self-help: go to school get a trade, be able to support yourself so you’re not economically dependent the way the older women were. It should have stayed like that but of course it all spun out of control. After the Mystique book hit there were more and more extreme books that took the ideas further. Frankly though, remembering my mother’s misery, and the nasty superiority of men back in the 1950s, I’m not sure which world I would prefer. Coming from a broken home I saw the worst of both worlds I think.
I
IsaacSheen
Guest
No, he wasn’t. He was the ideal person.
Feminism started with pagan priestesses who got high on vapors coming through the ground. They were then called “oracles” and gave ancient peoples prophecies. Now, feminism encourages abortion and women’s ordination. In its most benign form, it makes young men feel like men aren’t worth as much as women and causes many to shy away from the priesthood.
It has also become a false god for many people. Yes, God is perfectly masculine and perfectly feminine. Worship the whole God instead of a part of Him. Feminine and feminism are two totally different things. I respect one and not the other, I’ll let you guess which is which.
I know it is easy to throw around Bible quotes to accuse someone of something when you don’t agree with them so I’ll offer you this one…
“You shall love the Lord your God with your whole heart, with your whole soul, and with all your mind”
“You shall love your neighbor as yourself”
Matthew 23:37-39
E
elizabeth4truth
Guest
Yuck :bigyikes: I’ve never heard of such a dreadful origin for wanting equal treatment of men and women. And, here I was thinking all along that Jesus brought the awareness to mankind, that women are equal, in God’s eyes.:banghead:No, he wasn’t. He was the ideal person.
Feminism started with pagan priestesses who got high on vapors coming through the ground. They were then called “oracles” and gave ancient peoples prophecies. Now, feminism encourages abortion and women’s ordination. In its most benign form, it makes young men feel like men aren’t worth as much as women and causes many to shy away from the priesthood.
It has also become a false god for many people. Yes, God is perfectly masculine and perfectly feminine. Worship the whole God instead of a part of Him. Feminine and feminism are two totally different things. I respect one and not the other, I’ll let you guess which is which.
I know it is easy to throw around Bible quotes to accuse someone of something when you don’t agree with them so I’ll offer you this one…
“You shall love the Lord your God with your whole heart, with your whole soul, and with all your mind”
“You shall love your neighbor as yourself”
Matthew 23:37-39
Here is webster’s definition of feminism, I just looked it up. Maybe this will help decide what good feminist behavior and bad feminist behavior is?
Feminism: 1) a doctrine advocating social, political and economic right for women equal to those of men. 2) a movement for the attainment of such rights 3) feminine character
J
JohnDee
Guest
Okay, you asked for it! I believe that the only worthwhile thing a man can do that a woman can’t is father a child! The only worthwhile thing a woman can do that a man can’t is be a mother! That said, all of the women I know appreciate it when I open doors for them, speak politely to them, treat them with respect, and refuse to tell “dirty” or “blond” jokes. But then again, most of the guys I know appreciate respect, too. That is what it is all about. I respect you for who you are, and what you can do, not what your sex, race, or country of origin is. If you can do the job as well as the last person that had it (sometimes that’s not saying too much), then I will hire you in a heartbeat! I don’t care if your skin is green with yellow stripes and purple polka dots or if your name is Louis or Louise.
I don’t think that women should receive less pay or benefits than a man, or vice-versa. My kid brother signed up to sell MaryKay cosmetics, if you can believe it! Yes, he is “straight”, he just likes to make money, and his customers appreciate the “masculine” viewpoint when they are using the products. We all have places in society, we just need to decide what they are, and go for it! By the way, I am protestant not a Catholic, I just saw where you asked for our opinion too!
Have a great night!
J
I don’t think that women should receive less pay or benefits than a man, or vice-versa. My kid brother signed up to sell MaryKay cosmetics, if you can believe it! Yes, he is “straight”, he just likes to make money, and his customers appreciate the “masculine” viewpoint when they are using the products. We all have places in society, we just need to decide what they are, and go for it! By the way, I am protestant not a Catholic, I just saw where you asked for our opinion too!
Have a great night!
J
I
IsaacSheen
Guest
Women *are *equal. I’m not debating that with you. It seems maybe you are reading want you want to read.
I didn’t mean it to be offensive. Please don’t take me that way. My point is that it isn’t about women getting “equal rights” anymore. Is it? Now it is making sure that men know that they have suppressed women and are inferior to women. (P.S. I’ve never suppressed any women).
Let me ask you something. Please be honest. I understand where you are coming from. I’ve heard this arguement before, and I have given it in the past (I was once pushing for feminism). But let me ask you…
If the priest was standing at the pulpit, reminding us of the masculinity of Jesus, how would you feel? Would you feel comfortable if there was suddenly a men’s movement to revive masculinity in the culture?
I’m not saying things that are feminine are bad. I’m saying that we need to find a balance. All you ever hear is “feminine this” and “feminine that”. Feminists are walking a fine line in the Church, one that can easily be crossed and already has been in many circumstances.
God is perfect balance. I just want people to not make feminism a false god. I also don’t want feminism pushing out masculinism. They should be equal in dignity.
I want women to be free and have the same opportunities BUT there are differences between men and women. Feminism wants those differences pushed aside.
Argue about true feminism all you want. As a man, I am masculine but I have feminine traits. Women are feminine but have masculine traits. So, tell me…why is feminism so important? Shouldn’t masculinism be an issue too then? And if both are an issue, maybe we should focus less on one or the other and instead focus on the BALANCE of both.
All things in moderation…
Peace and love. Please, again, don’t be offended.
L
Lorarose
Guest
Well…likewise - many women live up to (or down to) what men expect of them. Why do you think the porn industry exists?
Ahhh…but we’ve moved onto even better technology to even the playing field.
Paternity tests.DNA tests.
It is no longer possible for a boy/man to say…“not mine!”
And now the law is on the side of the mothers to make the men pay for their children or their wages will be garnished…or they won’t get their drivers license…or they’ll go to jail.
So while women still bear the physical price - it is no longer true that a guy can get out of it scott free.
Boys should be instructed more often now that sex results in an 18 yr long financial commitment whether they want to or not.
J
jp2fan
Guest
IsaacSheen, I think you really need to read the pope’s writings to women. He totally upholds the differences between men and women, but also insists on our equality and dignity. I would start with “Letter to Women” then move to “Mulieris Dignitatem.”
Lorarose:
Yes, but is it really equal? Who usually gets primary custody? And is the parenting really equal? Besides, is the man really respecting her and upholding her dignity? I think that that is the primary need of feminsim today. Making men respect women again, after radical feminism destroyed this. I don’t think a paternity test will ever be able to fix this.
L
Lorarose
Guest
I wasn’t addressing those issues.
I was addressing the attitude that traditionally women were the ones who put the brakes on casual sex due to pregnancy.
It used to be common for men to be able to walk away from that responsiblity.
The laws are making that much more difficult to do.
So…no…paternity tests cannot force men to treat women the way they should…but paternity tests SHOULD cause men to look at sex in a much more serious light than they have in the past.
C
Christian4life
Guest
That depends…If you mean the “Yes women are people too, we should be taught to read, given respect for our thoughts, and not trampled under men’s feet, proverbs 23 woman type of feminist” then I think it’s done a world of good.
If you mean the “I just divorced my husband to become a lesbian and now I’m gonna go abort his child out of spite and sue the men’s hockey team for not letting me join even though I don’t actually want to play” type of feminist, then I think it’s very, very
BAD.
If you mean the “I just divorced my husband to become a lesbian and now I’m gonna go abort his child out of spite and sue the men’s hockey team for not letting me join even though I don’t actually want to play” type of feminist, then I think it’s very, very
BAD.
I
IsaacSheen
Guest
I will read them. But, don’t understand me wrong. I’m not saying we shouldn’t uphold the differences. I’m saying, we shouldn’t focus all our strength on one or the other. Balance is the word. Ask yourself the last time you heard anything about “true” masculinism (would that even be the word?). If we are having such a large discussion on feminism, there should be one on masculinism that is just as large because it too is beautiful and needs its role defined.
To not focus on masculinism (again, someone correct me if this is the wrong word) at the same time as focusing so extremely on feminism, we run the risk of seriously damaging the Church and society, which is what I see this whole movement doing now.
By the way, to quote myself directly in my last post…
So I guess you and I are in the same boat. Maybe you didn’t read my whole post.
Peace and Love!
E
elizabeth4truth
Guest
C
Curious
Guest
That’s a great post and I quite agree.
Each person, whether male or female, has their own calling. It’s okay if it is the destiny of some women to have careers. It’s equally okay if it is the destiny of some women to be homemakers. Sometimes I think people here want women to stay home, shut up, and have babies. That’s fine for some women. Not for others.
I’ve read somewhere that there is a big divide among the women in the United States. The working mom’s look down on the stay at home mom’s, criticizing their “lack of industriousness” and sometimes calling them lazy. The stay at home mom’s criticize the working mom’s for “letting other people rasie their kids” and not “being there” for the children.
We should respect each other’s callings and purposes in life. They can’t all be the same.
- Status