Feminism?

[smndtupidisaftr]

In the 1960s, all the moms in my neighborhood were stay at home moms. Marriage was a partnership. It was understood that a woman, a wife and mother, had just as much respect and dignity as her husband.

The type of feminism that emerged in the 1970s was not solution oriented. It had the opportunity to help married couples and couples thinking about getting married. Instead, it chose to create an us vs. them attitude between men and women. Men, all men, became the enemy. Everything was run by men, including the Catholic Church.

Men were useless: “A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle.” Gloria Steinem

The family was bad: Betty Friedan called the family “a comfortable concentration camp.”

Babies were a hindrance. I was born in the mid-1950s and the average number of kids in my neighborhood was 2. There was no Birth Control Pill.

So, what did they offer? Separation and fear and distrust. They firmly planted the idea that your man will kick you to the curb, run off, and leave you with the kids. Did this happen? Sometimes. But the mom could always go back home or get taken in by a relative until she got back on her feet. Right? According to them: wrong.

Women were given their orders. Get a career. Don’t trust him, get a pre-nuptial agreement, since that man who said “I love you.” is a liar, and will dump you for someone else. Maybe not soon, but eventually.

Women deserved more than motherhood, and faith and trust and commitment didn’t really mean anything. Join the army, become a CEO, run for President. OK. Then what?

The family is the basic building block of society and it takes two people, not one. Meanwhile, men and women were being encouraged to have “one night stands.” Frustrated, some women, who wanted real love, commitment and stability, decided to go along.

And then women were given a strange power: they could make men disappear at will. Yes, if a man she chose to have sex with got her pregnant, he was off the hook. It was her body, and nobody could tell her what to do with it.

Artificial contraception: good.
Men: Temporary flings. “Just sex.”
Family: Why bother? You’ve got to overthrow the patriarchy - the world run by men - at all levels.
Babies: A huge pain. If you have one, just drop it off at daycare while you pursue your career. You can pick it up after work for some quality time, but at 18 - out of the house.

And this is the National Organization for Women today.

www.now.org/

Peace,
Ed

I think that this article points out the sham of this kind of feminism, or women’s liberation. It’s enlightening, even if you don’t agree with all of it (and I haven’t read it for a while to remember if there was something particularly outlandish about it).

lewrockwell.com/rothbard/rothbard4.html

 

[smndtupidisaftr]

If women want full equality with men, they need to have the responsibilities as much as the rights, and that means I would promote women to be drafted and to be allowed on the front lines. Otherwise, our society is an unequal society

Or we could just completely abolish the ability of governments to start drafts. That’s my ideal solution.

 

[Angelsflight]

Or we could just completely abolish the ability of governments to start drafts. That’s my ideal solution.

THAT is a great idea!

 

[faithsmind]

I there anyone brave enough to share a strong pro-feminist viewpoint on here?
I would like to hear from those people who would like to revise the definition of feminism.
I personally would.
Feminism to me, should be revised to embrace the qualities that are unique to women.

I also don’t like how Feminists view men. I see feminism interpreting all men as meat-headed walking hormones.

I recall my first encounter with a feminist article after having had my first baby. I was so completely enamored with my new little girl, and happy with the entire experience of being a mom (she was a very good little baby ha). Then I came across this article, written in the 1960s by a betsy… can’t remember, I felt like I had just been punched in the stomach.

 

[johnnyjones]

The real deal is we are different but of course if we do the same job we should be paid the same. There are others areas of the workplace where fairness to both genders should apply as well.

However…many females want to have their cake and eat it to. They want equality here there and everywhere except when it come to the social arena.
Men are often expected to pay on dates.
There are also longstanding cultural minsets imbedded into men regarding women.
Women and children first (of course children)
Help a women in distress.
Hold a door for a woman.
Ladies first.
Don’t hit girls.

I’m all for these things but are they archaic? Has feminism trounced them?
Is equality different off the job then on? When women talk about equality is it selective equality?

 

[edwest2]

I there anyone brave enough to share a strong pro-feminist viewpoint on here?
I would like to hear from those people who would like to revise the definition of feminism.
I personally would.
Feminism to me, should be revised to embrace the qualities that are unique to women.

I also don’t like how Feminists view men. I see feminism interpreting all men as meat-headed walking hormones.

I recall my first encounter with a feminist article after having had my first baby. I was so completely enamored with my new little girl, and happy with the entire experience of being a mom (she was a very good little baby ha). Then I came across this article, written in the 1960s by a betsy… can’t remember, I felt like I had just been punched in the stomach.

That is the feminism the media loves today. That is the feminism that denies the life I lived in the late 1950s and early 1960s even happened.

And it is the feminism of separation, as if men and women don’t even have a species relationship.

I suggest everyone read the following:

ignatiusinsight.com/features2008/lmurray_confessions_apr08.asp

Peace,
Ed

 

[TheRealJuliane]

I there anyone brave enough to share a strong pro-feminist viewpoint on here?
I would like to hear from those people who would like to revise the definition of feminism.
I personally would.
Feminism to me, should be revised to embrace the qualities that are unique to women.

I also don’t like how Feminists view men. I see feminism interpreting all men as meat-headed walking hormones.

I recall my first encounter with a feminist article after having had my first baby. I was so completely enamored with my new little girl, and happy with the entire experience of being a mom (she was a very good little baby ha). Then I came across this article, written in the 1960s by a betsy… can’t remember, I felt like I had just been punched in the stomach.

I am a feminist!

I am so pro-female that I propose we stop killing future women in the womb immediately!



(and future men too.)

Feminists for Life

Because women deserve better than abortion.

 

[Angelsflight]

The real deal is we are different but of course if we do the same job we should be paid the same. There are others areas of the workplace where fairness to both genders should apply as well.

However…many females want to have their cake and eat it to. They want equality here there and everywhere except when it come to the social arena.
Men are often expected to pay on dates.
There are also longstanding cultural minsets imbedded into men regarding women.
Women and children first (of course children)
Help a women in distress.
Hold a door for a woman.
Ladies first.
Don’t hit girls.

I’m all for these things but are they archaic? Has feminism trounced them?
Is equality different off the job then on? When women talk about equality is it selective equality?

Nothing wrong with chivalry. I love it. For me personally, I never assume a man should always pay on dates. I always offer to share the bill, or we switch off, he pays for dinner, I pay for the movie, something like that. Its only right.

I guess it is mostly where jobs are concerned, and paying for services rendered at businesses. At a job I was at once, I was paid 9 dollars an hour while the men were paid 37 dollars an hour. For the same job. I get it that men are married and they have families to support. But I am not married and need to support myself also.

And I do hate to go to get my car fixed and get charged 900 dollars for the same job a man would have to pay 400. Not cool. Especially if we are only making that 9 dollars an hour.

So…this is not so bad right?

 

[johnnyjones]

Nothing wrong with chivalry. I love it. For me personally, I never assume a man should always pay on dates. I always offer to share the bill, or we switch off, he pays for dinner, I pay for the movie, something like that. Its only right.

I guess it is mostly where jobs are concerned, and paying for services rendered at businesses. At a job I was at once, I was paid 9 dollars an hour while the men were paid 37 dollars an hour. For the same job. I get it that men are married and they have families to support. But I am not married and need to support myself also.

And I do hate to go to get my car fixed and get charged 900 dollars for the same job a man would have to pay 400. Not cool. Especially if we are only making that 9 dollars an hour.

So…this is not so bad right?

You like many others may offer to pay on dates. It is still highly customary for men to swing for dinner and events. I think all women need to get on board if they really want fairness. My point is that with the social graces women want things the same. Also my understanding is that equality is across the board, not just on jobs. There are definitely many cases where women have been payed less for the same work as a man. It is hard to believe in this day and age that it is still widely going on.

I’ve been in Civil Service most of my life so that absolutely can not go on. But reverse discrimination goes on there and elsewhere in a non monetary way. If a single dad has a child care issue in relation to his shift they don’t give a darn. A women however is catered to. More “sympathy” is applied to her case. I’ve been through it.

It’s too bad some scum bag mechanics are still out there treating women unfairly. The auto mechanics field is dominated by men. Women should change that. I see women as having made huge strides but there is more work to be done.

I still see things like giving women a different physical training test for firemen/women as unfair to men. Same job, no? The working women has certainly been more challenged over the years but some of these fights men have gone through among themselves before women were fully aware of it. Your right, it’s not cool.

 

[SugarMagnolia]

Feminism? Which feminism? So many conversations on “feminism” treat it as if it were one single ideology. There are many feminisms.

When I hear young women proudly proclaiming, “I am NOT a feminist,” I reply “How convenient for your employer that he doesn’t have to pay you the same salary as a man who does the same job.” Of course, they immediately say they would demand equal pay for equal work because it is their right. When I say, “How convenient that you can sleep late on election day when men go to vote,” they say “Of course I exercise my right to vote.” These women are feminists. They exercise the rights won by earlier generations of feminists. So what do these feminists mean when they say “I am NOT a feminist” (with a sneer as they pronounce the word feminist)? Well, I think what they mean is “I am not unfeminine.”

In grad school I took a course on feminism. I took the course because I was a feminist. By the time the course was over, I was one of those women boasting that I was NOT a feminist! Why? Because, even though there are many feminisms, one feminism has eclipsed the others in our national consciousness–radical feminism.

Radical feminists dismiss other feminisms as incomplete or weak or misguided. The radical feminist ideology can be summed up in an essay by Adrianne Rich called “Compulsory Heterosexuality and Lesbian Existence.” The title says it all. According to Rich, heterosexuality has been forced upon women by men. However, women are naturally lesbians, differing only in degree. Women exist on a ‘lesbian continuum.’ Thus, women who have zero interest in lesbianism are just at the low end of the continuum. They’ve been totally brainwashed by the ‘patriarchy.’ While radical feminism isn’t identical with radical lesbian feminism, I think it’s fair to say that radical lesbian feminism is the logical outcome of the radical feminist ideology.

But again, there are other feminisms. Liberal feminism, for instance, which gave us the idea of equal pay for equal work. The problem is (and I experienced this in my feminism course), radical feminism is the feminism everyone thinks of when they hear the word, so to distance oneself from it, one says “I am NOT a feminist.” When I said “I am NOT a feminist” what I meant was “I like skirts and long hair. I love my husband and I don’t regard our love-making as ‘the oppression of the patriarchy.’ In short, I don’t want to be mannish.”

It took a while for me to realize that the radical feminists were doing a major disservice to women by associating feminism with man-hating.

Of course, all of this was a few decades ago. More recently, the laudable goal of extending human rights to women (which is what feminism originally meant) has taken another bizarre turn. Now, being a liberated woman is associated with being mannish in a different way–not the radical feminist womyn with short hair and masculine clothes, but the empowered woman who has adopted every male vice to prove her equality. This is the opposite mistake of the man-hater, but just as damaging. It happens when the noble idea of equality is enlisted in the service of a base ideology. We can do the same things men can do. But ‘can’ doesn’t always mean ‘should.’ We can make equally intelligent decisions in the voting booth. We can perform equally well in the workplace. Of course we can. We can use crude language, have meaningless sex with strangers, and match men vice for vice. But should we?

This was a wrong turn for women take. We tried to prove our equality to men by doing everything they did. This actually gave men more control because they set the standard for crude behavior and women had to follow. It’s not merely a matter of ‘equality’ being confused with ‘sameness.’ Even if ‘sameness’ was the objective and both men and women were expected to have the ‘same’ behavior (which I think they should), it makes more sense for that ‘same’ behavior to be the behavior of the better behaved sex. Instead of women adopting promiscuity and pornography from men, why not have men adopt the modesty and chastity of women? I don’t know the answer. Maybe it’s because changing men’s behavior seemed too difficult. Maybe it’s because men seemed to have the more fun lifestyle. But the end result is that, the bar keeps getting set lower and lower and women must keep lowering themselves–and liking it.

I think it’s time for a new feminism–a feminism that tells girls they’re equal to boys and possess the same rights as boys, but that also tells girls their bodies are valuable, too valuable to be given to every boy that wants it; a feminism that loves men enough to say No to them when they want what they should not have. This is true assertiveness, not the false assertiveness of telling women they can and should have sex with lots of people and do everything else men tell them to do; but an assertiveness that says No when men or society or tv tells them to do things that are crude and demeaning. Imagine a feminism where a woman says “No I will not have sex with you” and the man says “Then I’ll get it from someone else,” only everyone else also says “No I will not have sex with you.” Imagine a feminism where women say “We will not watch immoral acts on tv shows” and then they don’t watch them. Imagine a feminism where virginity is valuable because women make it valuable. Yes, I think it’s time for a new feminism.

 

[faithsmind]

Yes, it’s sad that unequal payment for the same level of work is still going on! I’d imagine it’s hard to draw that line and regulate something like that. There’s a lot of subjectivity in that area. An employer needs the right to interpret levels of work being done and run his business in the most effective way. The employer hurts him or herself and his biz when he’s not being fair about wages for his workers. Skilled workers quit in situations like that. It most likely creates a less productive, angry work environment too.

It seems the common view of feminism is based on a victim mentality. I believe in justice, don’t get me wrong. My motheroutlaw considers herself a feminist. She gardens, flips through magazines, and watches CNN all day. I guess this is how she is a feminist? In her vote? Her hub brings home the bacon. Always has. She was a stay-at-home mom for her entire life. My grandma, on the other hand, did not consider herself a feminist. She bore 7 kiddos but helped her hub with their farm (driving tractors, etc. she also smoked a corncob pipe lol). She drove my mom mad. She was also a science teacher later on. When she retired, she spent her days fighting for social justice of the unborn at clinics. Now that’s what I call feminist. She’s my hero.

(funny, as I was writing this, my 6yrold comes up to me and asks, “Mom, the opposite of a baby is a dad, right?”

 

[faithsmind]

Bravo, Suga M. Thanks for taking the time to post such a well-written statement!

 

[smndtupidisaftr]

Yes, it’s sad that unequal payment for the same level of work is still going on!

Many of these studies do not take into account all of the factors. They look at experience, education, age, etc., but then forget to take into account a major factor: time lost to pregnancy. This uncertainty means that a company would be without production for quite some time, and also helps explain lower wages.
Walter Block:

I gave several bits of evidence, or proof, or illustrations, of this. For one thing, when you compare not all men and all women, but only the never-marrieds, the wage gap between males and females virtually disappears. When you take only young people, aged 18—24, again the male-female wage gap cannot be found, since most of them have never been married. And this entirely reasonable. After all, while women’s productivity on average may well have been lower than men’s in past centuries, when physical strength was important in this regard, in the present century this is no longer true. For another thing, if (all) women really had the same productivity as men, nowadays (they don’t, due to marriage), then there would be additional profits available to any firm that specialized in hiring females. Surely this is a situation that could not long endure.

lewrockwell.com/block/block112.html - Describing some lectures he gave at Loyola College.

 

[faithsmind]

Many of these studies do not take into account all of the factors. They look at experience, education, age, etc., but then forget to take into account a major factor: time lost to pregnancy. This uncertainty means that a company would be without production for quite some time, and also helps explain lower wages.

That’s a great point, smndtupidisaftr.

 

[Angelsflight]

You like many others may offer to pay on dates. It is still highly customary for men to swing for dinner and events. I think all women need to get on board if they really want fairness. My point is that with the social graces women want things the same. Also my understanding is that equality is across the board, not just on jobs. There are definitely many cases where women have been payed less for the same work as a man. It is hard to believe in this day and age that it is still widely going on.

I’ve been in Civil Service most of my life so that absolutely can not go on. But reverse discrimination goes on there and elsewhere in a non monetary way. If a single dad has a child care issue in relation to his shift they don’t give a darn. A women however is catered to. More “sympathy” is applied to her case. I’ve been through it.

It’s too bad some scum bag mechanics are still out there treating women unfairly. The auto mechanics field is dominated by men. Women should change that. I see women as having made huge strides but there is more work to be done.

I still see things like giving women a different physical training test for firemen/women as unfair to men. Same job, no? The working women has certainly been more challenged over the years but some of these fights men have gone through among themselves before women were fully aware of it. Your right, it’s not cool.

You make some very valid points. I guess there really is no easy way to argue feminism, and there are so many variables to consider…

 

[Gorillaman]

What is your personal understanding of Feminism?
Do you consider yourself a Feminist, and if so, why? I’d love to hear any stories!
How do you see the world’s view of the woman’s role and value today? How do you think this view has evolved? How has this view affected you right now?

I am personally tired of that 60’s idea that a woman must be the same as that of a young man to have any sense of value. Otherwise she’s at the level of a leach. This attitude is outright infuriating and I believe it has destroyed the fabric of society as well as the dignity of womanhood and motherhood–and childhood. The woman today, is pulled in so many directions, because so much is expected of her. If one does not act “responsibly” and get thee on the pill and to a part-time job, she is just a leach who is out of touch. Maybe I’m bitter. heh heh.

Would love to hear respectful agreements and disagreements. Stories and feelings are free to be shared, here, too.

Haha. I see what you mean…maybe a bit bitter. But I agree…I think god wants us to be a balanced people. To see him, and to still enjoy what life has to offer…some women over do it, and some don’t do it at all. My sister is very strong mother, but will still admit, that she doesn’t wanna smash that particular spider. And her husband will go off and be the bread winner, but will still say “hey I don’t feel like driving, you go ahead…” God gave us a gut to charge certain ideas, and then he gave us a brain to balance it out. Boom. Haha. So basically…idk either. Ha

 

[catholicanne]

What is your personal understanding of Feminism?
Do you consider yourself a Feminist, and if so, why? I’d love to hear any stories!
How do you see the world’s view of the woman’s role and value today? How do you think this view has evolved? How has this view affected you right now?

I am personally tired of that 60’s idea that a woman must be the same as that of a young man to have any sense of value. Otherwise she’s at the level of a leach. This attitude is outright infuriating and I believe it has destroyed the fabric of society as well as the dignity of womanhood and motherhood–and childhood. The woman today, is pulled in so many directions, because so much is expected of her. If one does not act “responsibly” and get thee on the pill and to a part-time job, she is just a leach who is out of touch. Maybe I’m bitter. heh heh.

Would love to hear respectful agreements and disagreements. Stories and feelings are free to be shared, here, too.

I was a Women’s Studies major in college (feminist studies) and I was told that you can’t consider yourself a feminist if you are pro-life. I was told by a professor that if I wasn’t ready to accept the pro-choice stance then I wasn’t welcome in the department. I have switched to being a history major now.

I have never believed that you have to believe in XYZ to call yourself a feminist, you simply have to believe that men and women should be treated equally. As far as being pro-life is concerned, there is a fantastic organization called Feminists For Life that promote the pro-life stance yet still call themselves feminists. Here’s their website:

feministsforlife.org/

 

[catholicanne]

If women want full equality with men, they need to have the responsibilities as much as the rights, and that means I would promote women to be drafted and to be allowed on the front lines. Otherwise, our society is an unequal society

I agree.

 

[catholicanne]

Or we could just completely abolish the ability of governments to start drafts. That’s my ideal solution.

That’s an even better idea!

 

[johnnyjones]

Yes, women can choose what life they want to live. The problem became - a small group wanted to dictate to women what they should and should not do.

Work and earning a living is fine. Replacing true love and commitment with hating all men has led to a rupture in the most basic building block of society and reduced true intimacy based on love and trust to “just sex.” That is the evil today.

The radical feminists wanted two things. Power. “I, the woman, am in charge of you, the man.” Friendship, then trust, then love and romance, and perhaps, marriage? Who needs it? If I spot a guy I like, I’ll just have sex with him that means nothing except satisfying myself.

The second thing was Money. They said: You are in control and you must make as much, if not more, money as the male you choose to keep in your company.

I recently read a comment published in a major Detroit newspaper from the leader of a Michigan based Women’s Business Association. She basically said that after all these years, she was disappointed that women were not in charge of most businesses.

Sex if you feel like it, like going to the bathroom. Power by displacing men as the head of the business or the family. And money so you can indulge yourself, and have the power to kick him out of your married life.

This is not better. It is wrong. And it distorts relationships and even having kids to:

I’m in charge.
I’ll divorce you the minute I want to.
I make a lot of money, and you’re my temporary sexual plaything.
I’m pregnant, and even though I have the means, I’m too busy overthrowing the patriarchy right now so I’ll just get an abortion.

Power and money or real love based on real friendship, trust and commitment? I think the choice is clear.

Jobs - no problem. The current idea of what a male-female relationship is? Totally wrong on both sides.

Peace,
Ed

Very wise synopsise Ed.