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edwest2
Guest
Once again, what do any of you think should be done? Solution oriented as opposed to fear oriented?
Peace,
Ed
Peace,
Ed
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Kaninchen
Guest
Somehow, the male of the species needs to become more marketable - rather than most consideration being given to just how very, very naughty the female of the species is to be rejecting designs that were last popular (with advertisers, anyway) over 50 years ago, marketers need to come to terms with the fact that the designs (never very realistic in long-term use) are just past their sell-by date (by decades).
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Island_Oak
Guest
Just having a little fun w/ your post so you see that anything taken to an exteme is usually unpleasant~and that includes religious fervor, traditional values, intolerance for change and individual differences.
There is nothing inherently threatening about a woman-owned business. I know, my mother has been a small business owner for the past 25 years and I can’t imagine anyone describing her or her employees as you did above, nor can I imagine she would have survived in business for 25 years with that kind of approach. Be careful about painting with too broad a brush when you encounter a bad situation~you risk looking just as bitter and unreasonable as the folks you’re criticizing.
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a_cermak
Guest
On the contrary, the “war” fought by NOW has enabled women to largely take their place alongside men as equals in the workplace. Today, female and male employees are largely considered fungible by most employers due to that struggle. Instead of victimhood, their struggle opened the doors to millions of young women who reap the benefits of feminism daily. I would wager less women are victimized today than were in the 1950’s for the simple reason that more women have the skills needed to live on their own and therefore the ability to walk out of a bad marriage. Even having that ability to walk, I would guess, improves her lot in life because her partner can’t simply take it for granted that she will put up with anything.
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edwest2
Guest
Then why get married in the first place? Should lawyers be on hand in case a woman wants to date a man?
The equality you talk about is not a truly functional equality but a description of a power struggle involving money. This is unBiblical.
The correct, Biblical approach involves trust, understanding, commitment and true love, not the Sex and the City variety that turns women into predatory fornicators, like the men they were not supposed to imitate.
Love involves commitment and is not always easy, especially when imperfect human beings are involved. Too much emphasis is placed on sex and almost none on building a real relationship based on compatibility, trust and understanding. This should be the goal of both men and women. This is Biblical. This is what should be promoted.
God bless,
Ed
The equality you talk about is not a truly functional equality but a description of a power struggle involving money. This is unBiblical.
The correct, Biblical approach involves trust, understanding, commitment and true love, not the Sex and the City variety that turns women into predatory fornicators, like the men they were not supposed to imitate.
Love involves commitment and is not always easy, especially when imperfect human beings are involved. Too much emphasis is placed on sex and almost none on building a real relationship based on compatibility, trust and understanding. This should be the goal of both men and women. This is Biblical. This is what should be promoted.
God bless,
Ed
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Kaninchen
Guest
I’m sure that’s all terribly interesting and all that but the problem is that you’ve got to sell it to a skeptical market - sitting in a corner of the internet moaning ‘Ain’t it awful’ isn’t going to do it for you, would be my guess.
How are you going to do that?
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edwest2
Guest
“sell”? This isn’t Marketing 101 and my comments were meant to be taken to heart by anyone here who might be interested.
God bless,
Ed
God bless,
Ed
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rwoehmke
Guest
And isn’t it surprising? They weren’t able to go out and work a full time job and then come home and expect hubby was going to help with the kids and housework. How deprived! Stuck at home with only children to talk to and no second eight to ten hours outside the home.
Does it ever occur to anyone that some of these b***hs are so sleep deprived, even a saint would be ornery. Most of us guys, even those who put in extra hours and don’t use their vacations don’t hold down two full time jobs. A good many of our female co-workers do just that.
Never the less, I have seen and experienced some of the behaviors ya’all describe and sometimes it’s by single women who thought they had it all and it has turned to ashes. Deep disappointment can do that to anyone including guys.
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Kaninchen
Guest
But you seemed terribly interested in getting into the ‘solution oriented’ but all I’ve seen is ‘ain’t it awful’. I’m genuinely interested in your thoughts as to practical steps of getting wherever you think we ought to be going - together with how you think you’re going to sell it to a highly skeptical audience.
If you can’t sell it, how on earth do you expect anybody to buy it?
Could it really be that all you have to offer is ‘ain’t it awful’?
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Naztakuan
Guest
I honestly don’t know what the complaints are all about anyway. Women came up with their own solution. To change themselves, get educated and participate in the politics and economics. The sex thing is really irrelavent. Ater all, prostitution was the only other option that women had other than marriage. Men fornicate, women fornicate. This perpatration that one sex is morally superior than another at some point in time is silly.In fact, it’s downright oppresive. I’m sure alot of men like to hold women up to these rediculous standards. But Feminism is about the right of a woman to be her own person and use her own mind. Women have come to their own solutions. I think it’s alot of men who are still playing catch up to the dramatic shift. All they need do is adjust a little. The OP described these bussiness women as angry which I think is off. They are probably acting like stern bosses are supposed to act. Secondly, women no longer need men for financial support. So the “aggression” you are referring to may be the fact that they are not sexually receptive to you. It may just be indifference.
Here’s an example:
Over the summer I worked at a retail store. there were two youngmen who started the same time I did. Howevver, we did not share a work ethic. I was always on time or early. They were always late. They didn’t work very hard and neither had taken much advatage of their education or saught to improve their career opportunities. I had problems with both these young men.
One, after repeatedly rebuffing his propositions, continued to ask me for “back rubs” for NO other reason than the fact that I was female. I would kindly remind him of sexual harassment laws and that his behavior is inappropriate. The other youngman was confrontational for no other reason than the way that I spoke. You see, When you are both urban and the same skin color, There is an expectation as a female how you carry yourself and speak. He spoke in a very basic DC dialect and I spoke the way any girl who attends years of Private catholic school should. Apparently this was threatning to him so he treated me like the OP judges these women he works with. We just want to work and go home. He aren’t there to be your buddy. I’m sure many of the men there aren’t either
This is a race class sex issue. The idea that things were “better” before feminism is just absurd. I’m sure Ed wouldn’t mind accusing the victimhood arguement against discriminated ethnic groups as well. Women simply stood up and said “NO”.
The truth is we are already are doing what needs to be done. But Ed what are YOU doing? You accuse women of being “victimized” which I’m sure many women don’t even think in those terms. More like I can do anything if I work hard enough at it and darned what men think I CAN’T do. I think men need to be less fixated on what women can and cannot, should and shouldn’t do and be more fixated on what they themselves should be doing. They also need to be less fixated on anyone else’s morality but their own. Over fixation on a woman’s virtue often leads men to neglect their own.
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edwest2
Guest
Sad. I’ve given the solution but people are reading past it like I didn’t write it. It’s in the Bible. It’s not about sex or politics. It’s about true love - real love. Not Sex and the City.
You can have your power fantasies that revolve around the idea that the only time women will be “equal” to men is when they become men. Power and money are not the answer.
The answer, once again, is real love between men and women. Real caring, real understanding and real respect. It’s in the Bible.
God bless,
Ed
You can have your power fantasies that revolve around the idea that the only time women will be “equal” to men is when they become men. Power and money are not the answer.
The answer, once again, is real love between men and women. Real caring, real understanding and real respect. It’s in the Bible.
God bless,
Ed
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Dale_M
Guest
Ed, I am curious but perplexed. Could you spell out this solution?
I think this is everyone’s goal, and a lot of folks find such love. Why do you think feminism prevents it?
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Kaninchen
Guest
So, let’s see if I’m getting you straight here, what you’re telling us is that you’re going with a cliché-driven model?
The thing is, Ed, that nobody outside the terminally dreary buys the ‘only time women will be “equal” to men is when they become men’ cliché - what doesn’t seem to be dawning on you is that the problem isn’t a problem with the female of the species, it’s predominantly a problem with the male of the species and a failure to adapt to the consequences of a technological/economic revolution.
You can’t have your old world back, Ed, capitalism doesn’t need it any more.
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BlueRubies
Guest
Well, consider this for one. You are a woman (no joke) who graduated college and are looking for a job in sales. You are hired and start a new job. Once you get there you notice some stuff - that the women seem to sometimes work harder while the men seem to get away with much more (more breaks, coming in late, leaving early, talking too much). Not only that, say you come accross information that even though you and Christopher were hired at the same time and have the same experience, you are paid $11 while he is paid $16. You wonder how can this be? You ask around and discover that almost all the women in your company make much less than the men even with the same education and experience.
This angers because your husband just walked out of your family and you haven’t seen a penny of child support in 3 months - things are stretched thin and you can barely pay the bills. Guys like the ones I described above get paid more than you for the same job, and (if) they (are divorced) don’t sometimes pay their child support. Thus they have more money and they are unwilling to use it to help with the raising of their children both physically and with money for support (this or that is more important to them).
Whenever an opportunity came up, you have to snatch it and work to beat all others so that you can be successfull - just to get the same pay and acknowledgment of men co-workers who are paid more in the first place and who are not as ambitious. This make you look like a femanist freak.
Now I ask you, does this seem right to you? Why do men always look at ambition women as witches and femanists when she’s just perhaps trying to earn her way through life for her kids sake when she’s getting help from no one including her ex who makes more money than her, doesn’t contribute to his kids and never even gives up time to help with his kids either? You can say you would never do this, but men sometimes need to wake up this is the real world out there and it happens!
Now a single lady out there just trying to destroy men out there - that’s a different story, but not all “femanist” women can be lumped together.
I don’t see how any of this however has to do with schools. It is the parents jobs to teach their kids morals and values.
This angers because your husband just walked out of your family and you haven’t seen a penny of child support in 3 months - things are stretched thin and you can barely pay the bills. Guys like the ones I described above get paid more than you for the same job, and (if) they (are divorced) don’t sometimes pay their child support. Thus they have more money and they are unwilling to use it to help with the raising of their children both physically and with money for support (this or that is more important to them).
Whenever an opportunity came up, you have to snatch it and work to beat all others so that you can be successfull - just to get the same pay and acknowledgment of men co-workers who are paid more in the first place and who are not as ambitious. This make you look like a femanist freak.
Now I ask you, does this seem right to you? Why do men always look at ambition women as witches and femanists when she’s just perhaps trying to earn her way through life for her kids sake when she’s getting help from no one including her ex who makes more money than her, doesn’t contribute to his kids and never even gives up time to help with his kids either? You can say you would never do this, but men sometimes need to wake up this is the real world out there and it happens!
Now a single lady out there just trying to destroy men out there - that’s a different story, but not all “femanist” women can be lumped together.
I don’t see how any of this however has to do with schools. It is the parents jobs to teach their kids morals and values.
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blessedtoo
Guest
What do you base this broad, sweeping assessment on? We all have personal stories to bring to the table. Yours appears to center on the difficult experiences of your grandmother and mother, both of whom had the difficult challenge of overcoming racism. My ancestral history is quite different from your’s, and not because we were affluent or elitist. If you do your homework, you will see that the early feminist movement was INDEED an elitist movement. It has never been about reaching the average woman. Still isn’t today - despite the pc rhetoric.
You may not say it, but ed was correct in his selection of quotes from the “mothers” of the feminist movement. One need only read the early books written by Frieden, Steinman, Robin Morgan, Andrea Dworkin, etc., to see that their intent was to “free” the woman from the “prison” of the family. How else to do that but demonize men and children? And guess what - they did a really great job!
You do realize that we have feminism to THANK for this? Prior to the sexual revolution, men would not have dared to treat women as they do today. But feminists were not happy with the idea of men doing things for them or treating them as though they were “pure and untouchable”. They wanted to get down in the dirt WITH the men. Another success, wouldn’t you say?
Do you mean like when you said this:
**
women just repressed their anger.**
How do you presume to speak for all women?
Let’s break this down using the facts.
Prior to the rise of militant feminism:
Divorce:
The American divorce rate today is more than twice that of 1960, but has declined slightly since hitting the highest point in our history in the early 1980s.
Pornography
1960 Playboy
2008 Porn available everywhere, including in the privacy of one’s home at the click of the mouse
Abortion
1960 Illegal
2009 4,000 per day in the US alone
Child Abuse
The rate of infant homicide reached a 30-year high in 2000.
The rate more than doubled from 4.3 homicides per 100,000 children under age one in 1970 to 9.1 per 100,000 children under age one in 2000.
Rape
1960 - 17,190
2006 - 92,455
disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm
Women should educate themselves about the real driving force behind the feminist “movement” before so quickly jumping to it’s defense.
disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm
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Kaninchen
Guest
Yes, one of the great steps forward has, indeed, been the increase in reporting of crimes against women.
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Kaninchen
Guest
Just as anti-feminists really should educate themselves about the real driving force behind the feminist “movement” from sources other than the more rabid ultra-right, of course.
Anyway, while this may be terribly interesting and we’d undoubtedly have a lots and lots of fun being unpleasant about each other and our respective points of view, it doesn’t get us anywhere at all. So, let me ask what I think are the central questions - what would you suggest as a set of practical ‘solutions’ to all these supposed ills and how would you propose to sell them to a skeptical market?
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Dameedna
Guest
Oh dear.
Well there doesn’t seem to be any good definition of “feminist” these day’s, but I’ll call myself one anyway. The problem is not really in the label, its in what we now call equality. As much as I dislike a lot of what the OP said(sorry hun!!) and I do not think bringing “religion” back into schools is the answer, perhaps bring back ethics and social studies may be a good idea. We get so caught up on respecting different cultural values, that we’ve forgotten that society NEEDS an ethical and civilized society to survive.
Within the younger female community, a feminist has quite literally become a woman who is liberal with her own body. If she believes in EQUALITY, then, she’s allowed to and EXPECTED to behave like a young male. Oh…My …goodness!! How cruel!! As a feminist, I see very little action going on in our community that actually supports women.
I see women who remove teeth from their mouth, so they have higher cheekbones. Women who shave some bone off their feet, so they can fit into fashionable shoes. I see women who put foreign substances into their foreheads, and can no longer smile, so that they can allow themselves to be valued by their youthful looks. In America, last year, over 1000 women, did surgery on their private parts, so they could more resemble porn stars for their partners.
Yep…feminism is…dead.
I’m much more about equality. Let me share a situation I was in at work recently, which did in fact involve a man-hater( I will NOT call her a feminist). The meeting we were in got very passionate. Most of the meeting members were men, with myself and the chair as women. The men got more and more vocal and started arguing and drowned us females out.Here was her eventual very loud response to this.
“Well why don’t you just PULL it out, see who’s is bigger, and then lets move on”. The worst part about it was, they all shut up and giggled.
I…EXPLODED!!
I stood up and slammed my palm on the table loudly. I did it deliberately. I said “How DARE you equate the passion these men have for their jobs, the desire they have to lead their teams well, and their ultimalte goal for this company with SUCH disrespect. How dare you reduce these men and their views to the size of their Penis!!” and I walked out. We have been so conditioned to see men as the bad guys, that we can no longer see them for who they are.
I was SO angry. For so long women have been judged by certain things. We still have a long way to go, before we understand that EQUALITY is respecting difference not trying to creating a unisex human race, nor judging according to our base human anatomy.
Gosh I was so angry.
Well there doesn’t seem to be any good definition of “feminist” these day’s, but I’ll call myself one anyway. The problem is not really in the label, its in what we now call equality. As much as I dislike a lot of what the OP said(sorry hun!!) and I do not think bringing “religion” back into schools is the answer, perhaps bring back ethics and social studies may be a good idea. We get so caught up on respecting different cultural values, that we’ve forgotten that society NEEDS an ethical and civilized society to survive.
Within the younger female community, a feminist has quite literally become a woman who is liberal with her own body. If she believes in EQUALITY, then, she’s allowed to and EXPECTED to behave like a young male. Oh…My …goodness!! How cruel!! As a feminist, I see very little action going on in our community that actually supports women.
I see women who remove teeth from their mouth, so they have higher cheekbones. Women who shave some bone off their feet, so they can fit into fashionable shoes. I see women who put foreign substances into their foreheads, and can no longer smile, so that they can allow themselves to be valued by their youthful looks. In America, last year, over 1000 women, did surgery on their private parts, so they could more resemble porn stars for their partners.
Yep…feminism is…dead.
I’m much more about equality. Let me share a situation I was in at work recently, which did in fact involve a man-hater( I will NOT call her a feminist). The meeting we were in got very passionate. Most of the meeting members were men, with myself and the chair as women. The men got more and more vocal and started arguing and drowned us females out.Here was her eventual very loud response to this.
“Well why don’t you just PULL it out, see who’s is bigger, and then lets move on”. The worst part about it was, they all shut up and giggled.
I…EXPLODED!!
I stood up and slammed my palm on the table loudly. I did it deliberately. I said “How DARE you equate the passion these men have for their jobs, the desire they have to lead their teams well, and their ultimalte goal for this company with SUCH disrespect. How dare you reduce these men and their views to the size of their Penis!!” and I walked out. We have been so conditioned to see men as the bad guys, that we can no longer see them for who they are.
I was SO angry. For so long women have been judged by certain things. We still have a long way to go, before we understand that EQUALITY is respecting difference not trying to creating a unisex human race, nor judging according to our base human anatomy.
Gosh I was so angry.
D
Dale_M
Guest
And the increase in reporting of crimes against children.
Blessedtoo, simply saying that numbers have changed doesn’t mean the numbers changed because of feminism. Society and culture are too complex to be reduced to such a simple explanation.
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Naztakuan
Guest
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