Feminist ideals behind birth control

[notredame_999]

I think that in your juvenile world view most all Catholics, both American and others in the non-third world countries would be going to hell. I was under the impression that none of us on earth are privy to who is in hell and who isn’t or are you somehow blessed with this knowledge? Priests have many important things to talk about in their homilies and ABC and how many children a couple choose to have is probably not at the very top of the list. Maybe teaching people about forgiveness, charity and not being a phony judgmental is more important, ie, following the gospels of Jesus Christ.

1.) The teaching on un-confessed mortal sin leading a person to hell is not my own teaching but the Church’s teaching of 2000 years. By the way I said LEADING a person to hell because we cannot be 100% certain where a person goes after death, and yes Christ can break his own rules any time he wants and show compassion.

2.) A couple doesn’t choose how many children to have- the holy spirit is also involved.The Church teaches that couple needs to be open to life unless there is a GRAVE reasons. These are not my teachings- these are the Chruch’s teachings. Read Humae Vitae. Also read from Fr. Thomas Euteneur Head of Pro-Life International.

3.) How am I showing phony judgement?

4.) Is this the Traditional Catholic forum? .

 

[Timothy17]

Dear OP,

You make points ; however, our dear zealous son of thunder ( ) be very weary of con-fusing (merging together) disparate ideas : some things are not “likes” and fit for analogous comparison, and this can weaken your central point unfairly.

Read Augustine ! Let his thinking permeate and order your own : You will be breathing fresh air. Imitate his form of argumentation, which is compelling because it is rational, reasonable and un-compromising in its adherence to reason and Truth. Listen to sermons, catechist and homilies by Bishop Fulton J. Sheen, who mastered passion fused with reason in a “modern” world. I recommend you look into the FSSP : google “FSSP Vocations.” I am sure you will be most impressed and attracted. Be sure to watch their video on vocations dedicated to Our Lady of Guadalupe, Patroness of the Americas.

You are correct overall. The Church instructs us in vocation first and foremost, and never compromises our duty to vocation with a sense of profession : we work for our families, we work for family in principle, and we all ought work and serve all families everywhere. Careers are secondary to vocations ; as Sabbath is for man, not man for the Sabbath, so work is for man, not man for work.

Finally, you are asbolutely correct in your assertion that there can be no compromise between moral duty and necessity. Nothing makes slavery like the tyranny of necessity. Nothing defeats tyranny like the outight refusal to compromise - even to the Cross if needs be. Nothing so sets us free as our willingness to be obedient to the Faith, and the Truth, which alone “makes you free.”

Our society, our world, is plagued by sin. The prevailing dominance of economical theories, such as neo-liberal economics (modern “capitalism”) or Communism/Socialism proves just to what our nations’ loyalties lie, and in what they hope : money. The world’s love of money is merciless, and will tear the Faith to pieces without thought, without pity. It will get worse, and it is the just punishment for the love of money, that man be enslaved to it. This punishment is natural law, and therefore of natural consequence for an addiction to an unnatural vice : it needs no special intervention by God to be shown or demonstrated to be fallacious and evil. We feel it and see it in our lives every day.

Pax brother,
Tim

 

[kozlosap]

Let me get this straight - because it’s the “Traditional Catholic Forum” you think that all self proclaimed traditional Catholics are going to agree with you? We all have a right to our opinions here at CAF, all of us. This forum is set up for discussion and debate, we are not always going to agree with each other’s views on different topics. As an adult and parent, you have to decide how you want your children to be raised. In these economic times it is expensive to raise children so they have the opportunities in life you want them to have. My daughter went to a well known Catholic University and graduated in 2006. The tuition and room and board was (at that time) $42,000 a year. She is now a third year law student and the tuition is a little bit higher. How many couples can afford to send ten or twelve kids to college and make sure they live in neighborhood where the public schools are decent or the Catholic school has tuition that is affordable? The median price for a house here in Northern California is $350,000 and that is a basic 3 bedroom. I think that if a family can afford to have unlimited children then that is wonderful, however, most of us don’t make $500,000 a year. I also have a real problem with you judging your parents for only having 3 children - that is beyond presumption. You are truly throwing the baby out with the bathwater by thinking that people who don’t agree with you are doomed to hell. What a very sad way to view the world. Most people really do have fully formed consciences’…

 

[Timothy17]

To sum an opposition to the compromising ideal I have read of some here :

Is Christ Jesus a liar ?

You know the answer.

And so if He commands us to love unconditionally, and have Faith, would he then abandon us in so doing ?

So what justification does someone who proclaims Faith in Christ have for not being obedient to Christ, and the law of the Gospel ? Are we not to be obedient, even unto death ? Is He not God ? Does He not know what world we live in now ? Does He not rightly remind us that even the lillies of the field are cared for by Him, and so we ought not worry about our needs, and specially not to worry about tomorrow ? So what reason do we then have to constrain our love, and our natural love of and for children ? Does not everything in nature compel a man and his wife toward bearing children ? Do they not fill us with meaning and purpose ? Do we not love them with a fire nothing on this earth could compare or equal ? Is not a child - even the idea of a child - good ? Does not every child bear within themselves a singular promise of Hope, even and especially a new Hope for tomorrow ?

God commanded us to be fruitful and fill the earth. “Economy” means “house rules,” and is that system or arrangement which prevails under the governing rules and beliefs of a society : not the other way around. If parents had children in abundance, and served families as their first priority above all things, the “economy” would obey, and adjust to suit, and as we see in history the most prosperous times of our nations were when they were prolific in child bearing, we have absolutely no logical or rational reason to believe that somehow, someway this natural law ceased to be at some unknown point of time : no, the refusal to be prolific in children is itself contrary to nature, and therefore creates unnatural consequences, multiplies woes, and so on, as all persistence in sin is wont to do.

Pax,
Tim

 

[adstrinity]

I can’t believe that the OP is getting slammed for his concerns.

I will state, though, notredame999, that the Church does not force women to have babies or encourage them to have more than a couple can support, so a couple limiting themselves is fine, PROVIDING, of course, they do not go against the Church by trying to block a baby by disgustingly perverse artificial means, but rather abstain from the marital act while the woman is ovulating.

Second, I understand your point; I think more women should let the man take care of them PROVIDING they could find a man. I think you will agree, that all women should receive an education should she need to support herself. The Church is pro-teaching and anti-ignorance; if nothing else, the woman should be richly educated, perhaps even with an MD, so she can homeschool her children well.

That being said, I do half think that a couple should discuss if a woman wants to work and if the husband wants her to work and if they both need her to work.

A professor I had at university was a Doctor of Theology, I think. She got me FAIRLY interested in pro-life. She was also very good at answering questions I had about Catholicism (was not Catholic at the time).

Ummm…let’s see, what else? Oh yeah, you are getting a bit hot, OP. Cool down, if people are flaming you, do not get defensive or angry. Reply in charity.

ALSO, keep in mind, some couples DO NOT practice ABC but still only have one child…or none.

And, before anybody forget, I am a female.

 

[kozlosap]

Tim - Beautiful Prose

We live in the real world, today, 2010, and I’m not being a relativist, I’m being practical. It isn’t between anyone except a husband, wife and the Lord how many children they have. Period.

 

[adstrinity]

Oh yeah, and, to the OP, what do you mean “feminine priests”? I trust you mean male priests who are…girly in appearance/mannerisms?

 

[edwest2]

Its unbelievable to me that so many catholics in this country are committing sac-religious communions by using ABC and not going to confession. What is even more amazing is that very few priests in the typical novous ordo american parish remind them of it. However, I think the root cause of this is feminism. By that I mean young women, even catholic women, think they should have dual roles as both wife/mother as well as having a career and bringing in some income. So what has happened is that the catholic woman has compromised by restricting themselves to 1-3 children (give or take) so they can achieve this dual role. Considering that almost all catholic colleges and universities in this country have female majorities, isn’t the Church somewhat responsible for this feminist mindset?

1966 Betty Friedan is one of the founders of the National Organization for Women. This radical feminist organization drove a wedge between the artificial ‘victim class’ - women, and the eternal enemy - men. The same Betty Friedan who referred to the family as “a comfortable concentration camp.”

1967 The Pill enters widespread use in the United States.

1968 Pope Paul VI, realizing the the threat posed by The Pilll, and Artificial Birth Control in general, has Humanae Vitae published.

Dissidents inside and those outside the Church, launch the Sexual Revolution.

1972 Ms. Magazine, which was partly founded by Gloria Steinem, appears. That’s where the title Ms. comes from. And this is the same Gloria Steinem who said, "A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle.

Women were encouraged to get careers. Being a mother was frowned upon. And getting a job and an income was encouraged. This had both positive and negative connotations. The bottom line: men are bad. Later, you would see Women’s Studies and Women’s Literature courses in colleges as if women had no species relationship at all with men. The bottom line: class warfare was created - no solutions occurred.

In the 1970s, prospective priests were not taught Humanae Vitae. They were told that using artificial birth control was a personal conscience choice.

In 1967, a group of Catholic educators signed a statement that separated them from the Church hierarchy:

catholichistory.net/Events/LandOLakesStatement.htm

Dissidents inside and outside the Church lauched an attack that we are now in the process of reversing the damage.

God bless,
Ed

 

[floresco]

Considering that almost all catholic colleges and universities in this country have female majorities, isn’t the Church somewhat responsible for this feminist mindset?

I agree that the feminist mindset permeates society, including many Catholics. I expect a post like yours that is critical of feminism to bring you under attack even on a Catholic forum. I have given up arguing about this subject because it seems impossible to get through to these people and it only frustrates me. But I did want to express my support.

 

[Julianna]

1. First of all I take offense to the left behind series reference which is protestant and something I never brought up. The left behind stuff is something totally contrary to our faith because it says that Christians will be “raptured” and saved from suffering when Christ tells us all to suffer. An example of suffering on this earth would be a priest who can’t have sex, a married couple who can’t use artificial birth control, a young single man who can’t touch himself in the morning, an engaged couple who can’t cohabitate. Doing all of these things is hard, but the church teaches we must follow them in order to avoid mortal sin and save our soul.
2. What can the Church do? For one remind people that using ABC is a mortal sin. Tell them about NFP- but that even it can only be used in GRAVE reasons. Tell them this in sermons or in parish newsletters. Tell people that every time that a married couple who uses ABC, or a young couple who is fornicating, or a young teenage man who touches himself and then receives the body of Christ- they have committed a sacreligious communion. Say it in a way that is true and with love- kind of like Fr. John Corapi. Talk about spiritiual warfare. Talk about Fatima and how Our Lady is a force against evil.

Protestant Churches have this as tenants of their faith.

The Church does that. How do you as a mere mortal control individual thoughts? Do you expect priests and bishops to do the same? Not humanly possible.

As for Left Behind…you brought up Revelations…the only book in the Bible some fundamentalists focus on. that seems to be what you are focused on. The parts of the Bible that I remember focusing on in Catechism were the Gospels and all the teachings of Jesus. Revelations was a blip on the radar screen…and still is…expect maybe for you.

Should the Church have some kind of screen like at airport where we walk in and the bells go off…if you sinned while coming into the Church. Gee…I thought that is why we are supposed to go in the first place.

 

[edwest2]

No you’re unbelievable and so is the majority of this Church which is falling off a cliff right now because we have negligent clergy who refuse to talk about mortal sin and hell confirmed by the revelations of Fatima in 1917. And no its not a “private revelation” this was a public prophecy.

This is not a “management problem.” We have the 24/7 internet. It’s all there – Vatican documents, the Catechism of the Catholic Church - it’s all there for free. Nobody who can get on the internet has an excuse.

God bless,
Ed

 

[notredame_999]

Let me get this straight - because it’s the “Traditional Catholic Forum” you think that all self proclaimed traditional Catholics are going to agree with you? We all have a right to our opinions here at CAF, all of us. This forum is set up for discussion and debate, we are not always going to agree with each other’s views on different topics. As an adult and parent, you have to decide how you want your children to be raised. In these economic times it is expensive to raise children so they have the opportunities in life you want them to have. My daughter went to a well known Catholic University and graduated in 2006. The tuition and room and board was (at that time) $42,000 a year. She is now a third year law student and the tuition is a little bit higher. How many couples can afford to send ten or twelve kids to college and make sure they live in neighborhood where the public schools are decent or the Catholic school has tuition that is affordable? The median price for a house here in Northern California is $350,000 and that is a basic 3 bedroom. I think that if a family can afford to have unlimited children then that is wonderful, however, most of us don’t make $500,000 a year. I also have a real problem with you judging your parents for only having 3 children - that is beyond presumption. You are truly throwing the baby out with the bathwater by thinking that people who don’t agree with you are doomed to hell. What a very sad way to view the world. Most people really do have fully formed consciences’…

Ok first of all I’m suprised at the responses I’m getting because I thought everyone in the traditional catholic forum agreed with Humanae Vitae. I thought everyone agreed that even NFP must be used under a GRAVE reason- I didn’t invent that. I’m unsure if wanting to be able to send a child to a prestigious catholic university justifies a GRAVE reason to postpone pregnancy??? Guess I was wrong.

Second, you mention the expense of law school. With all due respect, what is more important, a law degree or welcoming another child into the world? What do you say to some of these Catholic families in Latin America or Africa who are raising children on literally $5 or less a day? Maybe we should learn something from their sacrifice?

Third, its not about people who agree/disagree with me. Its about following the teachings of the church and avoiding mortal sin. The Catholic Church teaches that using ABC, blowing of mass, pre-marital sex, masturbation etc. are mortal sins. Yet at least 80% of self-described Catholic married couples in this Country have no problem doing some of these things without confession and then taking communino on Christmas and Easter so obviously we have a very serious problem in the Church right now. Does that mean all of these people are going to hell? Well, what does the Church teach? The church teaches that any un-confessed mortal sin LEADS a person to hell although we cannot be fully certain where they end up. Christ and Our Lady can save anybody should they choose to and I sure hope they do.

Finally, in regard to my parents yes this is a serious issue. I am concerned about their salvation. I do not want them in hell! If that makes me a pharisee so be it but I dont think so. The reason why I brought them up is because they’re a good example of Catholic decline in this country. They had devout parents who worked hard to send them to catholic school, met at a Catholic school, got married in a Catholic Church, went to mass had me baptized, communion etc. I am very appreciative for that. However, they never believed in confession- like most American Catholics. The reason why people don’t believe in confession is because they were never taught of sin. They were never really taught WHY the church teaches against ABC, so they engaged in it like most Catholics in this country do while failing to realize they were committing mortal sins. The homosexual priest scandals and the way some bishops covered it up didnt’ help either.

 

[notredame_999]

This is not a “management problem.” We have the 24/7 internet. It’s all there – Vatican documents, the Catechism of the Catholic Church - it’s all there for free. Nobody who can get on the internet has an excuse.

God bless,
Ed

What are you talking about? Yes the clergy is responsible! I went to confession a couple of months ago and I had a priest tell me not to let masturbation keep me from communion! That is wrong. I wonder what additional spiritual counsel he gave other Catholics? I bet that type of attitude is prevalent in the liberal wing of the church. When your average Joe Catholic shows up to confession and is told things contrary to the Catechism that is not his fault- that is the priest. We can’t expect the laity to be theologians

 

[Julianna]

Let me get this straight - because it’s the “Traditional Catholic Forum” you think that all self proclaimed traditional Catholics are going to agree with you? We all have a right to our opinions here at CAF, all of us. This forum is set up for discussion and debate, we are not always going to agree with each other’s views on different topics. As an adult and parent, you have to decide how you want your children to be raised. In these economic times it is expensive to raise children so they have the opportunities in life you want them to have. My daughter went to a well known Catholic University and graduated in 2006. The tuition and room and board was (at that time) $42,000 a year. She is now a third year law student and the tuition is a little bit higher. How many couples can afford to send ten or twelve kids to college and make sure they live in neighborhood where the public schools are decent or the Catholic school has tuition that is affordable? The median price for a house here in Northern California is $350,000 and that is a basic 3 bedroom. I think that if a family can afford to have unlimited children then that is wonderful, however, most of us don’t make $500,000 a year. I also have a real problem with you judging your parents for only having 3 children - that is beyond presumption. You are truly throwing the baby out with the bathwater by thinking that people who don’t agree with you are doomed to hell. What a very sad way to view the world. Most people really do have fully formed consciences’…

Good question. I hope the OP can answer it.

 

[notredame_999]

Oh yeah, and, to the OP, what do you mean “feminine priests”? I trust you mean male priests who are…girly in appearance/mannerisms?

Yes. This was at a liberal Jesuit parish. By feminine I do mean mannerisms and voice. The sermons were very libreal too- no metnion of sin, no mention of hell, no mention of Satan. Reminds me of when Fr. John Corapi was preaching and the local priest asked him not to talk about sin. He replied, “Father I don’t know how not to talk about sin.” lol Seems like we would be much better off if we masculine priests like him and Fr. Bill Casey who talk like strong men.

 

[notredame_999]

Good question. I hope the OP can answer it.

10 or 12 kids is pretty rare and you know it. Also, I never said 10 or 12 was some kind of ideal number. Why is it the parents responsibility to pay for the young adult’s college tuition? Yes, it would be great if it could happen but whats more important- getting a degree in four years and delaying life or asking the young adult to work/take out a loan so life can be given? There is nothing wrong with sending kids to public schools if catholic schools aren’t an option. Most of the catholic schools today teach a watered down catholicism anyway…I speak from experience.

 

[Julianna]

I can’t believe that the OP is getting slammed for his concerns.

I will state, though, notredame999, that the Church does not force women to have babies or encourage them to have more than a couple can support, so a couple limiting themselves is fine, PROVIDING, of course, they do not go against the Church by trying to block a baby by disgustingly perverse artificial means, but rather abstain from the marital act while the woman is ovulating.

Second, I understand your point; I think more women should let the man take care of them PROVIDING they could find a man. I think you will agree, that all women should receive an education should she need to support herself. The Church is pro-teaching and anti-ignorance; if nothing else, the woman should be richly educated, perhaps even with an MD, so she can homeschool her children well.

That being said, I do half think that a couple should discuss if a woman wants to work **and if the husband wants her to work **and if they both need her to work.

A professor I had at university was a Doctor of Theology, I think. She got me FAIRLY interested in pro-life. She was also very good at answering questions I had about Catholicism (was not Catholic at the time).

Ummm…let’s see, what else? Oh yeah, you are getting a bit hot, OP. Cool down, if people are flaming you, do not get defensive or angry. Reply in charity.

ALSO, keep in mind, some couples DO NOT practice ABC but still only have one child…or none.

And, before anybody forget, I am a female.

You had me in close agreement until here.

 

[Lutheranteach]

Lovely to see some of the posters here just absolutely feeding the Catholic stereotypes…my dad and grandfather would have loved it.

 

[notredame_999]

Lovely to see some of the posters here just absolutely feeding the Catholic stereotypes…my dad and grandfather would have loved it.

how so follower of Martin Luther?

 

[faithfully]

Say it in a way that is true and with love- kind of like Fr. John Corapi. Talk about spiritiual warfare. Talk about Fatima and how Our Lady is a force against evil.

If it is your passion to stop the use of ABC then you should find a way to help educate people on it. The fact is, it’s not taught well AT ALL. It is glazed over. Over and Over again.

You’ve heard that saying that you’ll catch more flys with sugar than vinegar. You might consider changing your approach. Because as a woman, the title of your thread indicates you are a man that has not had to personally deal with the question at hand. You haven’t had to grapple with the reality of multiple children and **** wages. Yeah, the people in Africa aren’t RAISING children on $5.00/day, they are barely keeping them alive. The more appropriate thing to do would be to abstain, and not bring a child into guranteed suffering and disease.

I’m glad that you thinkFather Corapi is such an amazing man. I’m sure you can see that if anyone can lead a life like he did prior to becoming a priest, and turn around to be such an amazing spokesman for God and his Church, and presumebly isn’t headed for hell… That those that have made mistakes such as ABC under the impression they had no other recourse, can in fact be saved. Perhaps you should reach out to those, inclusive of your parents. Let them know your concern for their soul, and there is in fact something called confession.

But more than anything… share with them the Grace of God. Get them excited about God and his glory. When people want to become closer to God they start to do what’s necessary to prepare their souls for life after death.

God is so gracious. He knows we will make mistakes. It hurts him. However, he is the best Father out there. He allows us to ask forgiveness and truly mean it. And he grants such forgiveness. We may have to serve a little time… but he wants us in Heaven. We will be given many chances…