Feminization of the Catholic Church and its effect

[CarloMagnus]

traditioninaction.org/religious/m015rpFeminization.html

I’m not sure if anyone’s read this. But I quite agree. I’ve completely stopped going to church altogether because of this(There is barely any Latin Mass around here). I see no connection with the modern Catholic Church and the traditional Catholic Church; except Vatican II and the Pope says so.

How does the modern Catholic Church expect to bring men into it with so much “feminization” going on?

I was reading up on St. Martin of Tours and on the article there is a section called “Revival of the popular devotion to St. Martin in the Third Republic”. On it it states:

The popularity of devotion to St Martin among men is significant because historical evidence shows that “feminization” had affected French Catholicism in the nineteenth century. During the nineteenth century Frenchmen influenced by secularism, agnosticism, and anti-clericalism deserted the church in great numbers. Martin was a man’s saint and the devotion to him was an exception to this trend. For men serving in the military, Martin of Tours was presented by the Catholic Right as the masculine model of principled behavior. He was a brave fighter, knew his obligation to the poor, shared his goods, performed his required military service, followed legitimate orders, and respected secular authority.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_of_Tours#Revival_of_the_popular_devotion_to_St._Martin_in_the_Third_Republic

Read the articles and comment.
-Karl

 

[Captain_America]

I don’t know. It’s good women are involved, after all. . .

The thing you might really want to consider is the ongoing “juvenalization” of men: turning men into couch potatoes only good at watching sports!

WATCHING sports. Not actually DOING them. Toss in computer games for good measure.

 

[triumphguy]

I’m 6’ 290lbs, 19" biceps and with a beard, and I ride motorbikes. No-one in the Church feminized me!

In fact I felt the pre-vatican II church to be a lot less masculine than today.

Some of the manliest men I have met have been priests.

 

[domandcarols]

In fact I felt the pre-vatican II church to be a lot less masculine than today.

Can you elaborate on that?

 

[archangel04]

I’m 6’ 290lbs, 19" biceps and with a beard, and I ride motorbikes. No-one in the Church feminized me!

In fact I felt the pre-vatican II church to be a lot less masculine than today.

Some of the manliest men I have met have been priests.

You are very lucky. All around me is all this “social justice” c*ap on equal rights, blah blah blah. I want to hear about spiritual warfare! Picking up your sword and ready to fight! Eastern religions have martial arts which attracts many men including men from different cultures. I love to hear stories about priest who confront demons in exorcisms, or on the knights Templar.

 

[sparrowhawk28]

I’ve never seen anything remotely like this. The church I used to attend each week was very traditional - the Priest Emeritus had basically established the church and even though they were allowing female readers and a female cantor, only men served on the altar and as Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion. I underwent training to distribute Holy Communion to the sick, but needed to go to the Cathedral to collect the Communion as the priest at my church didn’t allow women (or new people in general) to take on that role.

I am female, and in the past I have been involved in several areas of church ministry (reading, serving on the altar and as an EMHC, being part of the church choir and assisting with youth ministry). Having the opportunity to be so involved has encouraged in me a deeper love and enthusiasm for the Church and for Mass. From my understanding, this opportunity even served as part of the inspiration for a friend of mine to enter religious life as a Dominican Sister of St. Cecilia.

I can understand and appreciate that men and women have different responsibilities and roles within the Church, but to deny women any real involvement in ministry would, in my opinion, encourage problems and potentially an even greater lack in attendance.
Being able to participate as a member of the congregation is certainly a blessing, but many people desire greater involvement and a greater closeness.

 

[triumphguy]

Can you elaborate on that?

Sure: I was so much younger then but this is what I remember

The priest hunched over, whispering, old ladies clacking their teeth and their rosaries during the consecration, frilly linen, little tinkly bells, lots of ornamentation that hid the visual clues/signs/sacrmentals, hideous pictures and statues of feminized saints looking doe-eyed and askance at the world.

The liturgy felt constricted and constrained - and I served hundreds of masses, dozens and dozens of benedictions kneeling on the hard marble, and many funerals, so I had lots of experience.

It made me want to yell.

 

[triumphguy]

On the other hand…

we had an Irish priest, Father Boylen who had been a middleweight boxer.

There was a notorious family with dozens of kids and the kids had kids, and one daughter was doing the “right thing” and getting married in Church. “Da” “the old fella” (father of the bride) was down the pub getting a few pints in with the lads, and having the craic. I was serving at the nuptial mass, and Fr. Boylen was getting mighty displeased with waiting for “Da” so Fr. Boylen hiked up his skirts marched off to the pub, reportedly bopped dear old “Da” on the chin and dragged him back to the church.

You wouldn’t get that nowadays!

 

[InspiritCarol]

This “feminine” spirit is to replace, I suppose, a “masculine” spirit which is more akin with hierarchy and institution.

No one comprehends the importance of hierarchy better than a good mother. If there is no definitive head of the household; then the authority is sacrificed and the children run ram shod over all. If you think that “women” encourage this behavior, then you are greatly deceived (as is this author), and should associate more with *real *women; not the ones the television has presented you with.

Quite extravagantly Podles places the principal responsibility for this process of feminization on St. Bernard of Clairvaux, the rise of scholasticism and the expansion of female monasticism. His rationale for such fantastic claims is simply too complicated to enter into here. There is convoluted twisting and turning through Platonic influences and Aristotelian dichotomies.

Obviously we’re all too stupid to comprehend logic. Good thing this author is here to draw conclusions for us.

It is clear to the objective onlooker these three things are necessarily enchained:
•The Clergy is increasingly less numerous and more absent;
•Lay people are ever more present and taking over clerical tasks;
•Women are taking over the majority of the lay ecclesiastical jobs.

What is far from clear is the ridiculous conclusion that these things are the result of there being too many women in church roles.

For the record, I’m a woman Music and Liturgy director. EVERY SINGLE WOMAN I know would step down in a heartbeat, if it meant that one of the lame excuses for “men” might be BOTHERED to get off their EXCUSE MAKIN’ butts and get to church.

STOP the WHINING.
Here’s the summary of the aritcle: :~whine~ I can’t go to church 'cause there’s girls there ~whine~

We do not have cooties.

If you were a real man, you wouldn’t let the presence of a woman bother you; and PLEASE tell the Priest about the cleavage thing - that’s inappropriate for all… ew.

ALSO for the record; my extraordinarily manly husband comes to church every week without fail - yes EVEN on Superbowl Sunday.

 

[joanofarc2008]

I am not sure what you mean. The Church Herself has always been feminine. She has always been the Bride of Christ - since about the time of St Paul. Maybe you need to check those footnotes and see where those VII documents came from because really nothing changed with Vatican II in regards to women. Women still do not confer Sacraments nor should they. However, the role of the laity in the Church was better defined and that does mean both men and women. That is unless we went through a different Confirmation Sacrament and that has yet to be explained to me.

 

[YoungTradCath]

I am not sure what you mean. The Church Herself has always been feminine. She has always been the Bride of Christ - since about the time of St Paul. Maybe you need to check those footnotes and see where those VII documents came from because really nothing changed with Vatican II in regards to women. Women still do not confer Sacraments nor should they. However, the role of the laity in the Church was better defined and that does mean both men and women. That is unless we went through a different Confirmation Sacrament and that has yet to be explained to me.

You’re right, the role of the laity was better defined. We are to go out into the world and ignite it with fire and bring it to the Church. But somewhere shortly after the glorious Council’s closing, we got that a little mixed up with laicizing the clerics and clericalizing the laity. Hm…

 

[ShawnaW]

I am appalled that someone would not attend mass due to your reasoning. that is very unfortunate. One might ask if your not just insecure in your own masculinity. There is a place for everyone in the Catholic church after all Mary (a woman) did give birth to Jesus, and if I’m not mistaken a woman gave birth to you as well. :clapping:

MARY, Mother of Jesus, you were Jesus’ gift for us from the cross. He gave you to us as our mother. Intercede for all our needs.

 

[Fiasco]

Dont blame the Second Vatican Council for this: blame the radical feminists. Theyre the ones who demand altar girls, “priestesses” “empowerment” ad nauseum. Priests and bishops and others in the hierarchy were made to feel guilty for supposedly giving women a hard time. They cringed; and caved in to the demands of the loudmouths.
Radical feminism took off in the 1970s, long after V II finished.
Add political correctness in all of its poisonous forms…

There was no “golden age” before Vatican II: the Church wasnt as strong and united as a lot of extreme Traditionalists would like us to think. im old enough to remember the pre-Vatican II Church; and a bomb was needed to be put under It to wake up most of us.

The use of EMHCs has got out of hand. Too many of the laity are mauling the Sacred Species…as if its their birthright. EMHCs are supposed to be used ONLY when the task of giving out Holy Communion would be too much for the priest. But: "Give em an inch…"
In a lot of places, its got far beyond the point where the priest is hardly more than just a member of the theatrical cast. The boundary between him and the rest of us has been blurred; and his indispensable role has been trivialised. We are all priests; but theres a vast and vital difference between the priesthood of the laity and the SACRAMENTAL PRIESTHOOD of the ORDAINED priest.

Before all of the upheaval and the loss of trust in a lot of priests and religious, some of us had the idea that we could just drift along, and let the priests and religious get us “to Heaven”. If we needed to know something, we could ask “Fahvah” or “Sistah”. Now, we have to find out by ourselves. The laity DID have to be stirred up to take up its responsibilities…but not to take over!!! And no intimidation: eg forcing the priest to have altar girls!!!
If some priests werent expected to be on so many often worse than worthless parish and diocesan committees etc, theyd have more time for the things that matter…

Thanks be to God, i attend an FSSP church where the priest/laity boundary is clearly defined. Each side loves and respects the other.

To blame Saint Bernard of Cllairvaux and the rise of monasticism…??? Crazy!!!

The authress of that article isn`t free of political correctness, herself: “lay person”!!!

A bit of a ramble; but…

 

[joanofarc2008]

You’re right, the role of the laity was better defined. We are to go out into the world and ignite it with fire and bring it to the Church. But somewhere shortly after the glorious Council’s closing, we got that a little mixed up with laicizing the clerics and clericalizing the laity. Hm…

I can see this to a point when you speak about maybe the number of EMHCs used at a Mass. However I have heard some users say that they should not be used at every Mass. However, logic would have it that if a parish only has one priest available and there are two species that there will be at least one EMHC at every Mass.

It is not so much anything new by the way - it is about going back to the collegial model of the early Church. Granted I am not talking about actual Sacraments - but not everyone needs to run to Father to receive Pastoral counseling. There are other people in a community that have these gifts and can become educated in this area and provide this service. As a matter of fact not all clergy are called to do this particular work - some are called more to liturgical work, some more canonical.

The very distinct line that was placed there before Vatican II I would argue was an artificial one created by the hierarchal structure of mixing the Roman Government into the Catholic Church. It was necessary at the time and to a point it still serves a purpose. However if one is to read the Didache and look at the early house Churches one will not find these type of lines.

I personally think (and this is supported with much research and discernment but at the end it comes down to opinion) that it is about finding a balance with the Help of the Holy Spirit that is right for the person seeking God but still obedient to the Magisterium.

Skipping Mass due to your opinion is never obedient to the Will of God through His Bride, the Church, voiced in Her Apostolic Teaching of the Magisterium!!!

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

No one comprehends the importance of hierarchy better than a good mother. If there is no definitive head of the household; then the authority is sacrificed and the children run ram shod over all. If you think that “women” encourage this behavior, then you are greatly deceived (as is this author), and should associate more with *real *women; not the ones the television has presented you with.

Obviously we’re all too stupid to comprehend logic. Good thing this author is here to draw conclusions for us.

What is far from clear is the ridiculous conclusion that these things are the result of there being too many women in church roles.

For the record, I’m a woman Music and Liturgy director. EVERY SINGLE WOMAN I know would step down in a heartbeat, if it meant that one of the lame excuses for “men” might be BOTHERED to get off their EXCUSE MAKIN’ butts and get to church.

STOP the WHINING.
Here’s the summary of the aritcle: :~whine~ I can’t go to church 'cause there’s girls there ~whine~

We do not have cooties.

If you were a real man, you wouldn’t let the presence of a woman bother you; and PLEASE tell the Priest about the cleavage thing - that’s inappropriate for all… ew.

ALSO for the record; my extraordinarily manly husband comes to church every week without fail - yes EVEN on Superbowl Sunday.

His friend went to Mass downtown and it was almost all women? Well if it was a weekday Mass that is the way it is…and mostly elderly women…why? Because they have outlived their husbands…that’s why! During our daily Mass…that’s what you are going to get…a women set up…a women EMHC…but no server…Fr. does that himself. And it’s because it is almost all women attending.

Here’s a though men…go to daily Mass once in a while…

 

[Credo_in_Deum]

traditioninaction.org/religious/m015rpFeminization.html

I’m not sure if anyone’s read this. But I quite agree. I’ve completely stopped going to church altogether because of this(There is barely any Latin Mass around here). I see no connection with the modern Catholic Church and the traditional Catholic Church; except Vatican II and the Pope says so.

How does the modern Catholic Church expect to bring men into it with so much “feminization” going on?

I was reading up on St. Martin of Tours and on the article there is a section called “Revival of the popular devotion to St. Martin in the Third Republic”. On it it states:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_of_Tours#Revival_of_the_popular_devotion_to_St._Martin_in_the_Third_Republic

Read the articles and comment.
-Karl

I fail to see how not going to Mass is going to help the problem; in fact by not attending Mass aren’t you perpetuating the problem?

Sure: I was so much younger then but this is what I remember

The priest hunched over, whispering, old ladies clacking their teeth and their rosaries during the consecration, frilly linen, little tinkly bells, lots of ornamentation that hid the visual clues/signs/sacrmentals, hideous pictures and statues of feminized saints looking doe-eyed and askance at the world.

The liturgy felt constricted and constrained - and I served hundreds of masses, dozens and dozens of benedictions kneeling on the hard marble, and many funerals, so I had lots of experience.

It made me want to yell.

I know right! Same thought crossed my mind when I read Leviticus! I thought to myself: " Oh God the Father what type of girly constricted and constrained worship are you trying to institute with all of your fancy vestments, rubrics, bells, and smells." It’s a good thing the same God would never want that type of fluffy girly constricted and constrained worship in His Mass nowadays. Especially when the sacrifice is His only begotten Son!

Plus it’s not like God giving specifics on how He wants to be worshiped is in anyway evidence that He is a personal being.

 

[CarloMagnus]

I fail to see how not going to Mass is going to help the problem; in fact by not attending Mass aren’t you perpetuating the problem?

I know right! Same thought crossed my mind when I read Leviticus! I thought to myself: " Oh God the Father what type of girly constricted and constrained worship are you trying to institute with all of your fancy vestments, rubrics, bells, and smells." It’s a good thing the same God would never want that type of fluffy girly constricted and constrained worship in His Mass nowadays. Especially when the sacrifice is His only begotten Son!

Plus it’s not like God giving specifics on how He wants to be worshiped is in anyway evidence that He is a personal being.

You could say I do as I do to tell them that what they’re doing is not working. And if they don’t get my message, it’s their problem. But I refuse to attend a church where there are liturgical abuses running rampant.

People don’t understand that God is a King. A King must be knelt to. We are not His equal. Being a soldier has always been about hierarchy and respect. And coming back home to find that everything has changed is not worth the battles and the scars; which are far too many. Especially since 'Nam.

Reading that document on st. Martin reminded me that there was such a place called France, and it was glorious. And it had God. Its men were not afraid of death, and they went to mass nearly everyday. They wrote poetry to women and went on wild adventures for them; for their love, even crusades of piety. Today, that is gone, and dead.

You compare that with here in America. Back in the 50s, towns were cleaner, kids were nicer, people were honorable and it was good to be an American. We used to be real men back then, and we treated women with respect, none of that, “rap”. Even the blacks were respectable. Still remember Martin Luther King Jr. Poor S.O.B…

I wonder how much longer it’ll be 'till we end up just like the French. And it all started cause they forgot the simple things. The things that mattered.

God knows I’ve lived a life with pain, but if there’s anything I can at least keep, it’s my honor. You all best think about that and how it’s connected with the Church and especially the Mass. Especially the Mass.

-Karl

 

[PhilOSophia]

It’s simple.

Sack all the EMHCs. They are not necessary.
Sack all the lay lectors, they are not necessary.

The TLMs I go to don’t have them and don’t need them. But they’re a great way for busybodies to get to bend Fr. Nice’s ear, to add their little touches to the Mass.

Do this for 30 years and you’ll have a feminised church all right, because as soon as women start to get involved, the men leave.

 

[LilyM]

I fail to see where either Leviticus or God ever mandated loads of frilly lace and flowers on almost every available surface, oh-so-manly pink (sorry, ‘rose’, which name is much more macho) robes trotted out occasionally, every nook and cranny filled with either chubby little baby angels, chubby little Baby Jesus, effeminate-looking male saints or SHEEP

Not to mention the castrato singers and boy trebles warbling out the high Cs of some piece of fluff, as often as not by a second-rate baroque composer … and nothing screams ‘testosterone’ more than that

Yes, I exaggerate somewhat for effect. And I know a lot of priests were tougher than nails in settings outside the liturgy - but when I see the TLM, ‘masculine’ is not what comes to mind.

I fail to see how not going to Mass is going to help the problem; in fact by not attending Mass aren’t you perpetuating the problem?

I know right! Same thought crossed my mind when I read Leviticus! I thought to myself: " Oh God the Father what type of girly constricted and constrained worship are you trying to institute with all of your fancy vestments, rubrics, bells, and smells." It’s a good thing the same God would never want that type of fluffy girly constricted and constrained worship in His Mass nowadays. Especially when the sacrifice is His only begotten Son!

Plus it’s not like God giving specifics on how He wants to be worshiped is in anyway evidence that He is a personal being.

 

[NewsTheMan]

It’s simple.

Sack all the EMHCs. They are not necessary.
Sack all the lay lectors, they are not necessary.

Amen to that.

In Iota Unum there is a great chapter on feminism within the Church. In fact the whole book is great