Feminization of the Catholic Church and its effect

[RedSoxWife]

traditioninaction.org/religious/m015rpFeminization.html

I’m not sure if anyone’s read this. But I quite agree. I’ve completely stopped going to church altogether because of this(There is barely any Latin Mass around here). I see no connection with the modern Catholic Church and the traditional Catholic Church; except Vatican II and the Pope says so.

How does the modern Catholic Church expect to bring men into it with so much “feminization” going on?

I was reading up on St. Martin of Tours and on the article there is a section called “Revival of the popular devotion to St. Martin in the Third Republic”. On it it states:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_of_Tours#Revival_of_the_popular_devotion_to_St._Martin_in_the_Third_Republic

Read the articles and comment.
-Karl

Remember why you need to be there. The Eucharist.

Block out everything else (I know, it’s not easy, the only parish where we used to live involved guitars, holding hands and changing the words to the Our Father to fit the music), and focus on the reason for the Mass.

Not going just puts yourself in a dangerous state. You’re not making a statement. You’re risking your soul making a point.

Sure: I was so much younger then but this is what I remember

The priest hunched over, whispering, old ladies clacking their teeth and their rosaries during the consecration, frilly linen, little tinkly bells, lots of ornamentation that hid the visual clues/signs/sacrmentals, hideous pictures and statues of feminized saints looking doe-eyed and askance at the world.

The liturgy felt constricted and constrained - and I served hundreds of masses, dozens and dozens of benedictions kneeling on the hard marble, and many funerals, so I had lots of experience.

It made me want to yell.

So the priest bowing over the Eucharist bothers you? And little old ladies are somehow less present (or annoying to you) at the OF? And attending an EF last week I have yet to see “ornamentation” that obscures what’s going on. Most masses (EF or OF) that I’ve been to have the “little tinkly bells” (for which I am grateful). And I guess we traded in the statues of “feminized saints” for female saints who look incredibly masculine (a few statues, depicting virgins I’ve seen definitely come to mind).

Watching our FSSP priest at Mass, I have never thought “constrained” or “feminine.” I’ve thought reverent. I’ve been thankful no one is trying to grab my hand and hold it. I’ve marveled at the obvious respect felt for the Eucharist, and the fact that it is very clearly the center of the worship, as opposed to making the Mass about the community.

No, I’ve never thought “feminine” at the EF Mass. Beautiful. Reverent. But not “girly.”

I am not sure what you mean. The Church Herself has always been feminine. She has always been the Bride of Christ - since about the time of St Paul. Maybe you need to check those footnotes and see where those VII documents came from because really nothing changed with Vatican II in regards to women. Women still do not confer Sacraments nor should they. However, the role of the laity in the Church was better defined and that does mean both men and women. That is unless we went through a different Confirmation Sacrament and that has yet to be explained to me.

I was shocked when my DH was in a graduate theology program and I started reading the Vatican II documents with him, because they had nothing to do with the “Spirit of Vatican II” that we’ve seen hijack the actual council in the past decades. The documents weren’t the problem. But the way that they were twisted by many people is.

You could say I do as I do to tell them that what they’re doing is not working. And if they don’t get my message, it’s their problem. But I refuse to attend a church where there are liturgical abuses running rampant.

People don’t understand that God is a King. A King must be knelt to. We are not His equal. Being a soldier has always been about hierarchy and respect. And coming back home to find that everything has changed is not worth the battles and the scars; which are far too many. Especially since 'Nam.
-Karl

So, you would rather not see your King at all, or receive him, than tolerate possible liturgical abuse? Does that seem right. Go up and kneel. No one can stop you. Receive on your knees. Maybe you’re example will encourage others who’ve longed to do the same.

I fail to see where either Leviticus or God ever mandated loads of frilly lace and flowers on almost every available surface, oh-so-manly pink (sorry, ‘rose’, which name is much more macho) robes trotted out occasionally, every nook and cranny filled with either chubby little baby angels, chubby little Baby Jesus, effeminate-looking male saints or SHEEP

Not to mention the castrato singers and boy trebles warbling out the high Cs of some piece of fluff, as often as not by a second-rate baroque composer … and nothing screams ‘testosterone’ more than that

Yes, I exaggerate somewhat for effect. And I know a lot of priests were tougher than nails in settings outside the liturgy - but when I see the TLM, ‘masculine’ is not what comes to mind.

No I wouldn’t say masculine. Or feminine. I would say beautifully reverent. Breathtaking. Amazing. Awe inspiring.

 

[triumphguy]

You could say I do as I do to tell them that what they’re doing is not working. And if they don’t get my message, it’s their problem. But I refuse to attend a church where there are liturgical abuses running rampant.

People don’t understand that God is a King. A King must be knelt to. We are not His equal. Being a soldier has always been about hierarchy and respect. And coming back home to find that everything has changed is not worth the battles and the scars; which are far too many. Especially since 'Nam.

Reading that document on st. Martin reminded me that there was such a place called France, and it was glorious. And it had God. Its men were not afraid of death, and they went to mass nearly everyday. They wrote poetry to women and went on wild adventures for them; for their love, even crusades of piety. Today, that is gone, and dead.

You compare that with here in America. Back in the 50s, towns were cleaner, kids were nicer, people were honorable and it was good to be an American. We used to be real men back then, and we treated women with respect, none of that, “rap”. Even the blacks were respectable. Still remember Martin Luther King Jr. Poor S.O.B…
I wonder how much longer it’ll be 'till we end up just like the French. And it all started cause they forgot the simple things. The things that mattered.

God knows I’ve lived a life with pain, but if there’s anything I can at least keep, it’s my honor. You all best think about that and how it’s connected with the Church and especially the Mass. Especially the Mass.

-Karl

Time to stop writing **** like this probably.

 

[triumphguy]

It’s simple.

Sack all the EMHCs. They are not necessary.
Sack all the lay lectors, they are not necessary.

The TLMs I go to don’t have them and don’t need them. But they’re a great way for busybodies to get to bend Fr. Nice’s ear, to add their little touches to the Mass.

Do this for 30 years and you’ll have a feminised church all right, because as soon as women start to get involved, the men leave.

BS! I’m an EMHC and not one of us gets to bend the priest’s ear, and no-one adds any touches to the mass. The laity go where the leadership lead.

I have no idea what kind of parishes or dioceses some of you lot are members of. There must be an alternate reality in the USA.

 

[Monica4316]

traditioninaction.org/religious/m015rpFeminization.html

I’m not sure if anyone’s read this. But I quite agree. I’ve completely stopped going to church altogether because of this(There is barely any Latin Mass around here). I see no connection with the modern Catholic Church and the traditional Catholic Church; except Vatican II and the Pope says so.

How does the modern Catholic Church expect to bring men into it with so much “feminization” going on?

I was reading up on St. Martin of Tours and on the article there is a section called “Revival of the popular devotion to St. Martin in the Third Republic”. On it it states:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_of_Tours#Revival_of_the_popular_devotion_to_St._Martin_in_the_Third_Republic

Read the articles and comment.
-Karl

what do you mean by feminization?

Whatever is happening in the Church though, this does not mean we no longer have our Sunday obligation. It’s a mortal sin to miss Sunday Mass. If you can’t go to TLM, we are obligated to attend whatever Mass we can. We are told to try and practice our own rite, but have you looked into the Eastern Catholic rites? If that is your spirituality more, you could maybe transfer… or find a TLM… but in any case, we must still attend Mass on Sundays.

 

[maryjk]

BS! I’m an EMHC and not one of us gets to bend the priest’s ear, and no-one adds any touches to the mass. The laity go where the leadership lead.

I have no idea what kind of parishes or dioceses some of you lot are members of. There must be an alternate reality in the USA.

I thank all of the EMHCs that showed up at the hospital when my parents were sick.

They came, gave Communion and sat and talked. I knew it was a time that I didn’t have to be there; what a nice break for me. And a time when my parent could receive the blessings of Communion; how nice for them.

 

[Leon_Bloy]

Charlemagne, you have stopped going to mass? That is objectively seriously wrong. I urge you in fraternal charity to confess this and begin going again.

Allow me to make a few points -

traditioninaction is not a good source - I don’t have the time or energy to go on in detail, but just read some of their other comments. They are, in my opinion, pridefully lacking in respect for the Church’s legitimate authority while claiming to be traditional.

Secondly, how can somebody truthfully characterize something as incredibly broad and diverse in its manners (i.e. not doctrine, morals, law, etc) as being either masculine or feminine? I could point out to you a world of diversity in that regard in my own city alone, much less the entire worldwide Church.

Many people actually point out that much of Catholic devotional art before the Vatican II era (I hate saying “before Vatican II”, actually - see my response to another thread) was overly effeminate.

 

[joanofarc2008]

I was shocked when my DH was in a graduate theology program and I started reading the Vatican II documents with him, because they had nothing to do with the “Spirit of Vatican II” that we’ve seen hijack the actual council in the past decades. The documents weren’t the problem. But the way that they were twisted by many people is.

Exactly - but the problem did not have anything to do with feminization - it was moving the Church from ex opere operato to ex opere operantis - not quite the extremes but further down the spectrum. The TLM keeps people in more of an operato stance. IMO.

 

[Credo_in_Deum]

but when I see the TLM, ‘masculine’ is not what comes to mind.

As another poster stated; I don’t see masculine or feminine, I see beauty and reverence which raises the heart up to God who is the purpose for why we are at Mass. If I wanted a free for all style of worship void of beautiful things which glorify God then I would have opted for Protestantism.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

It’s simple.

Sack all the EMHCs. They are not necessary.
Sack all the lay lectors, they are not necessary.

The TLMs I go to don’t have them and don’t need them. But they’re a great way for busybodies to get to bend Fr. Nice’s ear, to add their little touches to the Mass.

Do this for 30 years and you’ll have a feminised church all right, because as soon as women start to get involved, the men leave.

If men leave because women are involved…then they are not real men. Seriously…you are going to let a woman chase you away from the Eucharist? To let that make you forget the infinite value of a single Mass? Then you got bigger problems then women in church:sad_yes::sad_yes:

 

[grasscutter]

No one comprehends the importance of hierarchy better than a good mother. If there is no definitive head of the household; then the authority is sacrificed and the children run ram shod over all. If you think that “women” encourage this behavior, then you are greatly deceived (as is this author), and should associate more with *real *women; not the ones the television has presented you with.

Obviously we’re all too stupid to comprehend logic. Good thing this author is here to draw conclusions for us.

What is far from clear is the ridiculous conclusion that these things are the result of there being too many women in church roles.

For the record, I’m a woman Music and Liturgy director. EVERY SINGLE WOMAN I know would step down in a heartbeat, if it meant that one of the lame excuses for “men” might be BOTHERED to get off their EXCUSE MAKIN’ butts and get to church.

STOP the WHINING.
Here’s the summary of the aritcle: :~whine~ I can’t go to church 'cause there’s girls there ~whine~

We do not have cooties.

If you were a real man, you wouldn’t let the presence of a woman bother you; and PLEASE tell the Priest about the cleavage thing - that’s inappropriate for all… ew.

ALSO for the record; my extraordinarily manly husband comes to church every week without fail - yes EVEN on Superbowl Sunday.

:tiphat:

 

[Cristiano]

If men leave because women are involved…then they are not real men. Seriously…you are going to let a woman chase you away from the Eucharist? To let that make you forget the infinite value of a single Mass? Then you got bigger problems then women in church:sad_yes::sad_yes:

I am a man,I am a husband, I am a father, I am the spiritual guide of my family, I am an EMHC, I am a catechist.
I do not see any feminization of the Church. I see only the feminzation of a lot of men that choose to be weak, delegate to women and teach their boys the same poor behaviors.
My father raised me to be a man and I am raising my son to be man too.

 

[Thomas_Casey]

Thread begins with a source antagonistic toward the Church

CLOSED